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Next 4 years - Stanley Cup Bound?

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Old
06-16-2010, 04:00 PM
  #51
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What Myers might become is all subjective up to this point.

What I'm discussing is objective matters. And if you're objective, you know that right now, Markov is a better D-man than Myers. Thus, he's a bigger contributor in a team's core than Myers is right now.

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06-16-2010, 04:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ScottyG 91 View Post
I'd say Buffalo has a better core than us after glancing through that list. Might be others that I missed.
Buffalo i'm not sure but i'd say Columbus and St-Louis will have a better core soon once their youngsters improve (the OP forgot Brassard , Voracek , Filatov for CBJ and Berglund , Oshie , Pietrangelo , Eller for STL) and once they get their **** together.

Add to that the 4th overall this year for CBJ and to a lesser extent the 14th overall for STL and you have two teams who are in pretty good shape for the future. Right now both of these teams are going through what LA and CHI went through a couple of years ago but they will eventually come into their own and it will be scary when they do.

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06-16-2010, 04:04 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I didn't feel this way about Green. No offense, but I don't really care what the general opinion about players are.

I never got the feeling Green would be a special player. I knew he was putting up points but what I've seen never awed me. Not like Myers.

And the packages are completely different here. Myers is a giant with some offensive skills. Who doesn't want a guy this big and talented on their blueline ? It's really two different guys and I don't remember ever being wowed with Green like I am with Myers.
I respect that opinion and can see why you see it that way....I tend to be more conservative and would keep Markov...but I dont pretend to have all the answers.....or I would be GM today..and not posting on a hockey forum!

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06-16-2010, 04:04 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Well, you are going purely on assumptions that he will be better......while I stick to what is already a star....and fitting perfectly well in our system......

I dont need to be paid to understand the math and risk analysis....either can be right as we are both doing an analysis via our own bias......is that not what making a determination is all about?
The fact that you are insinuating that Myers is not a star is proof that you are underestimating his value. Also, comparing him to Green? What do the two have in common?

Born in 1990 and in his 1st season full season (he didn't miss a game ) he got 11 G, 37 A, and was + 13

And yes, he's a star after 1 year .... It's pretty safe to say I think.

Will he be a Superstar? I think so....

But those are just numbers, did you watch him much???

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06-16-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ground And Pound View Post
Buffalo i'm not sure but i'd say Columbus and St-Louis will have a better core soon once their youngsters improve (the OP forgot Brassard , Voracek , Filatov for CBJ and Berglund , Oshie , Pietrangelo , Eller for STL) and once they get their **** together.

Add to that the 4th overall this year for CBJ and to a lesser extent the 14th overall for STL and you have two teams who are in pretty good shape for the future. Right now both of these teams are going through what LA and CHI went through a couple of years ago but they will eventually come into their own and it will be scary when they do.
Well, I belive the OP was refering to today...the players you highlighted there are great kids but probably more considered tomorrow's players?

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06-16-2010, 04:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
What Myers might become is all subjective up to this point.

What I'm discussing is objective matters. And if you're objective, you know that right now, Markov is a better D-man than Myers. Thus, he's a bigger contributor in a team's core than Myers is right now.
I agree that Markov is a bigger contributor at the moment but that might change as soon as 1-2 seasons down the line. And to me, the difference in the now vs future when it comes to Markov/Myers is just not enough to not want to trade Markov for Myers.

But no way Buffalo does this, and I don't know if Gauthier would have the balls to do this trade if it was offered.

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06-16-2010, 04:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
The fact that you are insinuating that Myers is not a star is proof that you are underestimating his value. Also, comparing him to Green? What do the two have in common?

Born in 1990 and in his 1st season full season (he didn't miss a game ) he got 11 G, 37 A, and was + 13

And yes, he's a star after 1 year .... It's pretty safe to say I think.

Will he be a Superstar? I think so....

But those are just numbers, did you watch him much???
Actually, yes, I did watch him a lot on TV...and actually saw him twice live this winter.....He has tons of talent.....but would I give up Markov now for Myers who has but one season in the league....probably not....do I want Myers, hell yes...but I would not part with Markov for a rookie....no matter how good he may be....

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06-16-2010, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
I respect that opinion and can see why you see it that way....I tend to be more conservative and would keep Markov...but I dont pretend to have all the answers.....or I would be GM today..and not posting on a hockey forum!
Eh, it's just what I think. You're welcome to disagree. Markov is an awesome player and is definitely a safer bet in the short term, maybe even long term. I just feel the odds are good Myers will supplant Markov soon, maybe not offensively, but in overall impact.

One of the reason I'm so high on Myers is because players this big usually tend to take a bit longer to fully develop and grow into their body. Also, dmen usually take longer to develop. So the fact he has these two things going against him yet is doing so well that early...

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06-16-2010, 04:09 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I agree that Markov is a bigger contributor at the moment but that might change as soon as 1-2 seasons down the line. And to me, the difference in the now vs future when it comes to Markov/Myers is just not enough to not want to trade Markov for Myers.

But no way Buffalo does this, and I don't know if Gauthier would have the balls to do this trade if it was offered.
In the context that Markov's team is playing to win now, I fully agree....Markov brings more to the table at this very moment....

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06-16-2010, 04:13 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Well, I belive the OP was refering to today...the players you highlighted there are great kids but probably more considered tomorrow's players?
Isn't this thread about the next 4 years though ? Because if so most of those guys who will all likely be important to their team and become part of their core.

If we already include Subban in our core then it's only fair to include those guys for their respective teams as well.

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06-16-2010, 04:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Actually, yes, I did watch him a lot on TV...and actually saw him twice live this winter.....He has tons of talent.....but would I give up Markov now for Myers who has but one season in the league....probably not....do I want Myers, hell yes...but I would not part with Markov for a rookie....no matter how good he may be....
I'm still convinced if Myers was on "your" team your opinion would change vastly.

Markov has been the closest thing to a franchise player in a very long time.

It's normal imo that we fans overrate him (not taking anything away from him - but he's definitely movable at the right price.)... it comes down to the lack of superstars we've had in the last 17 years.

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06-16-2010, 04:21 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I'm still convinced if Myers was on "your" team your opinion would change vastly.

Markov has been the closest thing to a franchise player in a very long time.

It's normal imo that we fans overrate him (not taking anything away from him - but he's definitely movable at the right price.)... it comes down to the lack of superstars we've had in the last 17 years.
Markov is only movable in the sense that we could get a Myers type player. Someone that good that young, I'd pull the trigger. But there are precious few dmen I'd trade Markov for. Very few. Myers is one, Doughty obviously is another but Doughty is pretty much untouchable.

And I'd not move Markov for a forward without massive overpayment and/or without knowing if I can fill the void his absence would create.

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06-16-2010, 04:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ground And Pound View Post
Isn't this thread about the next 4 years though ? Because if so most of those guys who will all likely be important to their team and become part of their core.

If we already include Subban in our core then it's only fair to include those guys for their respective teams as well.
Fair enough...I had forgotten the premise of this thread was looking over a 4 year period.....And the Subban example is quit to the point.....

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06-16-2010, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Markov is only movable in the sense that we could get a Myers type player. Someone that good that young, I'd pull the trigger. But there are precious few dmen I'd trade Markov for. Very few. Myers is one, Doughty obviously is another but Doughty is pretty much untouchable.

And I'd not move Markov for a forward without massive overpayment and/or without knowing if I can fill the void his absence would create.
I agree...not sure how this turned into a trade Markov thread, because to me he'll stay a Hab and the chances of us getting a Myers in return is below zero.

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06-16-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
Fair enough...I had forgotten the premise of this thread was looking over a 4 year period.....And the Subban example is quit to the point.....
No rules to how long we look at, I just took 4 years because if Plek does sign, we have 4 of our top 6 locked-up for that time at 23 M

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06-16-2010, 04:55 PM
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A.Kost and Pouliot will have to reach the next level, otherwise we will be an average team among several others..

Markov will have to stay healthy too..

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06-16-2010, 09:26 PM
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Not a chance unless one of our younger question marks becomes elite. We are going nowhere with gomez and his debilitating cap hit. You don't pay a 2nd line centre 7.3 million.

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06-16-2010, 11:28 PM
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Not a chance unless one of our younger question marks becomes elite. We are going nowhere with gomez and his debilitating cap hit. You don't pay a 2nd line centre 7.3 million.
Ya.

I like Gomez, but the 7.3 is horrible... it could cost us Plekanec!

I'd take Plek over Gomez, without much thought...

Gomez in 3 or 4 years = 3rd liner?

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06-16-2010, 11:47 PM
  #69
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Not a chance unless one of our younger question marks becomes elite. We are going nowhere with gomez and his debilitating cap hit. You don't pay a 2nd line centre 7.3 million.
"Nowhere" is a very revealing place. Before the bar was raised to Stanley Cup or bust, most anti-roster posters were satisfied to derisively point out that in their opinion, the team would never get past the first round, and that real success only starts with getting past two rounds.

Now that we have done that, and not only winning two rounds but winning them against the TWO favourite teams in the Conference, it turns into "nowhere". The grass is greener elsewhere, always, for these people. "The Habs backed into the playoffs" - yeah, but the Flyers got in even later and were fifth with three weeks to go. "The Habs were lucky to win the two series, seven-gamers can go either way" - yeah, and the Flyers getting an OT win in Game 4 against Boston and then some PP help in Game 7 were not also lucky?

Fact is, that the COMBINATION of Gomez and Plekanec is one of the best combinations in the league. Yes, Crosby and Malkin are better, but the TOP TWO LINES of the Habs are better overall, since the Pens have ZERO good wingers. The Pens series proved that even relying on just 4 top-6 forwards actually producing is better than relying on 2 elite top-3 forwards.

A healthy and improving Pouliot, a healthy Kostitsyn or another guy replacing him and his $3.25M on the roster, a full year of Subban, and the players that we can add as soon as Hamrlik's contract is a thing of the past, which is at most one year away, could conceivably take us over the top.

Of course, it is almost ALWAYS a safer bet to put your money on NOT winning the Cup than winning it - when there are 30 teams. It doesn't take a lot of sharpness to take that easy way out.

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06-17-2010, 01:12 AM
  #70
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Gauthier is 100% going to resign markov. hamerlik is gone next year at 36...spacek will be 38 when his contract is done; gill 36 when his is up...
that leaves OB and gorges and suban..markov is 31 and in his prime for the next 4 years. keeping him is a huge priority. there is nothing on D on the farm that is close talent-wise. carle and weber will be nice puck movers, bennett is 5 years from the NHL...
up front..i believe kristo and leblanc will be very good talented character players to build around...

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06-17-2010, 05:43 AM
  #71
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Gauthier is 100% going to resign markov. hamerlik is gone next year at 36...spacek will be 38 when his contract is done; gill 36 when his is up...
that leaves OB and gorges and suban..markov is 31 and in his prime for the next 4 years. keeping him is a huge priority. there is nothing on D on the farm that is close talent-wise. carle and weber will be nice puck movers, bennett is 5 years from the NHL...
up front..i believe kristo and leblanc will be very good talented character players to build around...
This is why I like the talked-about potential deal with San Jose: centered on Price for Clowe and Murray. It's NOT that I am anxious to move Carey, but that is a good return that fills two holes. We get a gritty 3rd line RW who can step up to 2nd line in a pinch, and a 30-year-old defenceman used to playing with Dan Boyle who can move in next to PK Subban. Now if we can include Hamrlik in that deal, even if we have to sweeten it with a Travis Moen, it will allow us to get a big-frame guy like Alexander Frolov THIS YEAR for the top-6, which will accelerate our build to a more balanced lineup that could go all the way if the playoffs go well.

Doable trades:
Price, Hamrlik, Moen for Clowe, Murray and maybe a 4th pick
Kostitsyn brothers for picks and/or prospects (AFTER Frolov is acquired)

Own Signings: Plekanec $4.5M 5 yrs, Moore $1.5M 3 years, MAB $700k 2 yrs, Lapierre QO, Pyatt 2nd contract 1-way, Halak 1 yr. $3M, Pouliot 1 yr $1M, Sanford $600k (or find another backup same cost)

New UFAs: Taylor Pyatt 750k 2 yrs, Frolov $4M

Buyout: Laraque

2010-11 MONTREAL CANADIENS
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Benoit Pouliot ($1.000m) - Scott Gomez ($7.357m) - Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) – Tomas Plekanec ($4.500m) - Alexander Frolov ($4.000m)
Taylor Pyatt ($0.750m) - Dominic Moore ($1.500m) - Ryane Clowe ($3.625m)
Tom Pyatt ($0.550m) - Maxim Lapierre ($0.840m) - White ($0.850m)
…..Brock Trotter ($0.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) - Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) - P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) - Josh Gorges ($1.100m)
…..Ryan O'Byrne ($0.942m); Marc-Andre Bergeron ($0.700m)

GOALTENDERS
Jaroslav Halak ($3.000m) - Curtis Sanford ($0.600m)

BUYOUT
Georges Laraque ($0.500)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 22; CAP:$58.8m; PAYROLL: $58.022m; BUYOUTS : $0.500m; CAP ROOM: $0.378m BONUSES: $0.000m

Alternatives:
If Pleks won't re-sign, sign Lombardi for a savings of $1.7M, drop Bergeron and White, and put AK46 back in the lineup; same total salary.

If Moore won't re-sign, try Eric Belanger or Manny Malhotra

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06-17-2010, 07:13 AM
  #72
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This is why I like the talked-about potential deal with San Jose: centered on Price for Clowe and Murray. It's NOT that I am anxious to move Carey, but that is a good return that fills two holes. We get a gritty 3rd line RW who can step up to 2nd line in a pinch, and a 30-year-old defenceman used to playing with Dan Boyle who can move in next to PK Subban. Now if we can include Hamrlik in that deal, even if we have to sweeten it with a Travis Moen, it will allow us to get a big-frame guy like Alexander Frolov THIS YEAR for the top-6, which will accelerate our build to a more balanced lineup that could go all the way if the playoffs go well.

Doable trades:
Price, Hamrlik, Moen for Clowe, Murray and maybe a 4th pick
Kostitsyn brothers for picks and/or prospects (AFTER Frolov is acquired)

Own Signings: Plekanec $4.5M 5 yrs, Moore $1.5M 3 years, MAB $700k 2 yrs, Lapierre QO, Pyatt 2nd contract 1-way, Halak 1 yr. $3M, Pouliot 1 yr $1M, Sanford $600k (or find another backup same cost)

New UFAs: Taylor Pyatt 750k 2 yrs, Frolov $4M

Buyout: Laraque

2010-11 MONTREAL CANADIENS
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Benoit Pouliot ($1.000m) - Scott Gomez ($7.357m) - Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) – Tomas Plekanec ($4.500m) - Alexander Frolov ($4.000m)
Taylor Pyatt ($0.750m) - Dominic Moore ($1.500m) - Ryane Clowe ($3.625m)
Tom Pyatt ($0.550m) - Maxim Lapierre ($0.840m) - White ($0.850m)
…..Brock Trotter ($0.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) - Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) - P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) - Josh Gorges ($1.100m)
…..Ryan O'Byrne ($0.942m); Marc-Andre Bergeron ($0.700m)

GOALTENDERS
Jaroslav Halak ($3.000m) - Curtis Sanford ($0.600m)

BUYOUT
Georges Laraque ($0.500)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 22; CAP:$58.8m; PAYROLL: $58.022m; BUYOUTS : $0.500m; CAP ROOM: $0.378m BONUSES: $0.000m

Alternatives:
If Pleks won't re-sign, sign Lombardi for a savings of $1.7M, drop Bergeron and White, and put AK46 back in the lineup; same total salary.

If Moore won't re-sign, try Eric Belanger or Manny Malhotra

Like Frolov would sign for 4M..... Like Price would be traded....Like we would resign MAB with Markov and Subban? Like Sanford can be an NHL backup anymore! Like the Sharkes would welcome a trade to get Hammer when they are already losing players due to the cap.... Do you watch the game?

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06-17-2010, 07:43 AM
  #73
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Like Frolov would sign for 4M..... Like Price would be traded....Like we would resign MAB with Markov and Subban? Like Sanford can be an NHL backup anymore! Like the Sharkes would welcome a trade to get Hammer when they are already losing players due to the cap.... Do you watch the game?
Frolov isn't worth THAT much. Offensively, he's good, but he's not in Cammy's world.

I think he can be had for around 4,5M. Apparently, Habs are very interested in him.

Price is as likely to get traded as Halak. He's before all an asset we can use to improve our roster.

Sanford or anyone, I think we can find a decent backup for under 1 million bucks.

With Markov being hurt to start next season, we might sign Bergeron to help the PP. I don't like him, but fact is he's a decent asset and fairly cheap for his potential contribution to our PP.

As far as Hamrlik to the Sharks, this is the only point where I admit it's impossible.

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06-17-2010, 07:45 AM
  #74
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Eh, it's just what I think. You're welcome to disagree. Markov is an awesome player and is definitely a safer bet in the short term, maybe even long term. I just feel the odds are good Myers will supplant Markov soon, maybe not offensively, but in overall impact.

One of the reason I'm so high on Myers is because players this big usually tend to take a bit longer to fully develop and grow into their body. Also, dmen usually take longer to develop. So the fact he has these two things going against him yet is doing so well that early...
Let's wait a little bit as far as Myers is concerned. I've seen too many good young d-men fall in their sophomore year to see him as a star in this league just yet. Players are going to know him better from now on, and his speed exposes him in a slow Buffalo d-core.

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06-17-2010, 09:58 AM
  #75
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I really don't see how we could be a better team in four years than we are now.

They only reason we made the playoffs this year is the fact that the teams behind us don't have the budget (not cap space) to spend big money on free agents.

No youth except Subban, a defense that's aging quickly, not cap room. And we might lose our best forward to free agency.

Unless one of our goalies is the next Roy/Brodeur/Hasek, we can forget the cup for quite some time.

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