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Old
06-17-2010, 03:15 AM
  #101
CS
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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
It's the Philly side which here is pushing the trade.
Well, it's more a result of a long and lengthy discussion on the Flyers' board about the position of Carter on the team and what possible options actually make sense for the team. It also happens to do with a lot of bad trade proposals out there for Carter where people are trying to steal him. The Flyers' fans have countered with a few that make sense for them. It really has nothing to do with pushing a trade. Most Flyers fans are still actually on the fence about trading Carter, as am I.

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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
And you want the ducks to overpay.
Still not sure how the Ducks are overpaying. Neither team has to move either player. Both players are extremely talented, and though Carter is a little better now, Ryan will likely close the gap. I fully expect them to be roughly the same kind of base market value when you only take into account their talents.


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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
They have no need to do that, no need to trade at all.
The Flyers don't either. This isn't being forced down anyone's throat. It was just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
I agree that Carter for Ryan in value is pretty much even, but I just don't see that trade working as it is now.
Honestly, I don't see it happening. GM's are reluctant to pull the trigger on these type of deals. I don't see Carter being on the table at all, neither do I see Ryan being on the table.

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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
If we would know Ryan's next contract, things could be different.
That's just it. Isn't Anaheim having a rough time re-signing him?

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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
The thing is ducks already have 1# center in Getz, and Carter would be expensive number 2, and wouldn't get the TOI he deserves IMO.
That's a poor excuse. Malkin and Crosby don't work in Pittsburgh? Richards and Carter hasn't worked in Philly? What about Sedin and Kesler or Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Plenty of teams have expensive number 2s, and in fact, I believe having two legitimate scoring lines is one of the only ways to be effective in the NHL. That starts with depth down the middle. So yeah, that's not a good argument at all.

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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
And I understand the philly side aswell. Richards, Briere, Giroux and Carter as centermen, and it makes alot of sense to trade Carter to a winger. Just not Ryan IMO

And I didn't mean that JVR + Carter would happen.
Fair enough, but in reality, both Giroux and Briere can play on the outside. It's only Carter really who cannot play on the wing. He excels significantly when controlling the play both in the offensive zone and defensively in his own zone. The thing that brought this up was the consideration that Hartnell - Briere - Leino has some distinct chemistry. It's possible to move Giroux to the wing to keep Richards, Carter, and Briere as centers too. Something like this:

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
Gagne - Richards - Testwuide/Nodl/Maroon
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Giroux

There are all kinds of possible combinations the Flyers can play with. Having all those versatile forwards works in their favor but having a natural winger cannot be underestimated.

That's the only reason it was suggested. It wasn't to "steal" from Anaheim or get some kind of overpayment for Carter. It was a legitimate attempt to attack things logically between two organizations.

With HFboards so obsessed with stupidity, I applaud this kind of logical reasoning whether or not it actually happens.

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06-17-2010, 03:21 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Completely off topic but why is it that you and other HF staff are not high on him? I assume you guys have seen a lot more of him than I have and was wondering what it is that gives you this feeling?
Well it had more to do with his personality than anything talent-wise. His interview was very poor and threw up some very strong red flags. We discussed the situation quite a bit last year. I was the writer for the Ducks at the time, and I was the one responsible for giving him a "D" grade. I thought he had enough talent to overcome some of his attitude/work-ethic issues, so I gave him an 8.0D. He had a decent year, but it wasn't the kind of showing we were looking for out of him. He got dropped to a 7.5D along the way.

I do know all about Getzlaf's apparent off-ice issues when the Ducks took him as well. They've shown time after time that they're not afraid to go after these types of players with some mental questions as opposed to talent questions.

We'll see through next season. It's going to be a very telling year for Holland.

My article last fall: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ects_fall2009/

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3. Peter Holland, C - 8.0D
6'2, 220 pounds
1st round, 15th overall, 2009

Coming into the 2009 Entry Draft, Holland was one of the biggest question marks. Everyone knew his abilities with the puck in the offensive zone and could see his attractive size. The concerns with his selection came from his habits, attitude, work ethic, and all-around game. The Ducks were the team willing to put these issues on the back-burner in the hopes of drafting a top playmaking center.

Holland will take a while to develop. He has all of the talent to be a top line center for the Ducks, but will obviously have to mature. For now he will remain with the OHL Guelph Storm where he is coming off a season of 67 points including 28 goals in 68 games. He needs to show that he can take that next step offensively in the OHL before making the jump to the professional level and an approach similar to the one that the organization took with Bobby Ryan might be the best for Holland's progression.
This is Kyle Kujawa's article from this spring: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ts_spring2010/

Quote:
6. (3) Peter Holland, C -- 7.5D
6’2, 195 pounds
1st round, 15th overall, 2009
January 14, 1991

Expected to be Guelph’s go-to offensive player to start this season, Holland saw a pair of third-round picks in Taylor Beck and Michael Latta (both property of Nashville) emerge as Guelph’s top threats early on in the season. In his first 27 games, Holland managed only 26 points -- not nearly enough for a 15th overall pick.

Holland has since exploded, nearly doubling that mark in January alone with 22 points, adding another 11 in his first five games of February. Injuries played a factor in Holland’s slow start, but his play certainly didn’t answer any of the questions marks on his game from last season, mainly his work ethic. His -11 rating also leaves something to be desired.

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Old
06-17-2010, 03:26 AM
  #103
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The overpayment thing was more about the Ryan + 1st for Carter + Parent, sorry about that.

The thing about Carter being too expensive, is Getz and Perrys new contracts in few years, and they'll likely get a raise. If Carter would be traded to Ducks, he could be asking for a raise as well after this last year of his contract. I just see the salary becoming a problem, possibly.

But I respect your opinion on this, and I like to be a part on these king of discussions.

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Old
06-17-2010, 03:35 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Up7Yours View Post
The overpayment thing was more about the Ryan + 1st for Carter + Parent, sorry about that.

The thing about Carter being too expensive, is Getz and Perrys new contracts in few years, and they'll likely get a raise. If Carter would be traded to Ducks, he could be asking for a raise as well after this last year of his contract. I just see the salary becoming a problem, possibly.

But I respect your opinion on this, and I like to be a part on these king of discussions.
Thanks. I enjoy these too; not so much pressure over arguing when people actually listen. Most people here know something about hockey, so the disconnect I think is something that can be avoided a lot of times when it isn't.



On another note on the Holland thing. I dug up the old discussion among the staff members about him. I can't copy what was said word for word, but I can give you the general impression of it:

We were considering Palmieri's rating of 7.5C a little high because he didn't necessarily have a great offensive dynamic. He is another talented two-way player that the Ducks have built their system on, but he doesn't need to have that extra offensive step. We considered dropping him to a 7.0C. If I remember correctly, we left him at 7.5.

A lot of people noted that they also like Palmieri's chances better than Holland. Some proposed a 8.0F for Holland. Some were confident Holland would never play 100 NHL games.

We had a precedent set where we had to rank new players in the top 20 based on the order that the clubs draft them in (though not necessarily in the overall order they were drafted in when discussing the top 50), so we in theory couldn't drop Holland to an 8.0F because he would almost have to be put under Palmieri. I had no problem with this, but the rules are the rules. The organization's draft order makes the final decision. In the end, we decided an "F" grade was a bit too extreme. He finished as an 8.0D. Six months later he was down to a 7.5D, but I'd have no problem giving him a 7.5F at this stage of the game.

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Old
06-17-2010, 04:14 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Thanks. I enjoy these too; not so much pressure over arguing when people actually listen. Most people here know something about hockey, so the disconnect I think is something that can be avoided a lot of times when it isn't.



On another note on the Holland thing. I dug up the old discussion among the staff members about him. I can't copy what was said word for word, but I can give you the general impression of it:

We were considering Palmieri's rating of 7.5C a little high because he didn't necessarily have a great offensive dynamic. He is another talented two-way player that the Ducks have built their system on, but he doesn't need to have that extra offensive step. We considered dropping him to a 7.0C. If I remember correctly, we left him at 7.5.

A lot of people noted that they also like Palmieri's chances better than Holland. Some proposed a 8.0F for Holland. Some were confident Holland would never play 100 NHL games.

We had a precedent set where we had to rank new players in the top 20 based on the order that the clubs draft them in (though not necessarily in the overall order they were drafted in when discussing the top 50), so we in theory couldn't drop Holland to an 8.0F because he would almost have to be put under Palmieri. I had no problem with this, but the rules are the rules. The organization's draft order makes the final decision. In the end, we decided an "F" grade was a bit too extreme. He finished as an 8.0D. Six months later he was down to a 7.5D, but I'd have no problem giving him a 7.5F at this stage of the game.
Thanks for the response. Obviously it's his attitude that leaves a lot to be desired and not his talent which is weird because recently the Ducks have been emphasizing picking guys with character (although they've done a pretty poor job of that if Logan MacMillan is anything to go by). Hopefully whatever issues he has can be sorted out.

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Old
06-17-2010, 09:42 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
The thing is in the salary cap era Gagne is not of high value given his injury history, his salary and he turned 30 this year. Coburn is of vaule because of his age and size, and the speed for his size, but he is an RFA which lessens his value. Quick is a young goalie with a 2.5 GAA, a 60-42-9 record, 8 shutouts and 911 svp over the last 2 years, on a team who missed the playoffs then wasnt expected to even make it. We need a goalie, and id prefer it to be a young one. Hear me out here, hypothetically speaking guys. If these 2 deals were made and we resign Ryan for say 5mil per look at this lineup.

Leino - Briere - Hartnell
Ryan - Richards -
JVR - Giroux -
Lappy - Betts -

Pronger - Carle
Timonen -
Bartulis -

Quick - Boucher

Left with 12 million to fill in the gaps with the likes of Hamhuis, Martin, Mitchell and Volchenkov out there to sign (id personally want Hamhuis to pair up with Kimmo again) I say we resign Krajicek, because in my opinion he played great for us, at a low price say 1mil. We resign Carcillo or Asham, its already been said they wont do both, but I would personally go with Carcillo because of Ashams age, and throw him on the 4th line. Now we need 2 more forwards. Frolov, Whitney, Karyia, Ponikarovsky, Partineau, Jokinen, Halpern, Lombardi and Morrison are available. Idk, I think it makes sense, just my opinion. We could have the 3 most terrifying lines in the NHL.
The Gagne injury history is such BS!

The guy is only 30 years old. WTF? Two years ago he missed a season because of a miss diagnosed concussion. He came back the next season he rang up 30+ goals playing mainly against the opponent's top line. He missed two months this season because of groin surgery but came back after the Olympic break and was playing like an elite forward.

Aside from his second season when missed time with a broken collarbone theguy has averaged like 70 games per season for his 11yr career.

Where do you expect to find an All-Star caliber, solid two way 30-40 goal scorer that is ONLY 30 Y/O?

Is Quick even projected to be an elite goalie? I know he looks like he will be a solid goalie that is capable of helping a team win a cup but Gagne & Coburn?

You bash people for HOMERISM but you seem like the type to watch the Flyers and see the warts on their players and assume that these players on other teams play all 82 games like they do the 10-12 times a season you may see them play.

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Old
06-17-2010, 10:11 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
The Gagne injury history is such BS!

The guy is only 30 years old. WTF? Two years ago he missed a season because of a miss diagnosed concussion. He came back the next season he rang up 30+ goals playing mainly against the opponent's top line. He missed two months this season because of groin surgery but came back after the Olympic break and was playing like an elite forward.

Aside from his second season when missed time with a broken collarbone theguy has averaged like 70 games per season for his 11yr career.

Where do you expect to find an All-Star caliber, solid two way 30-40 goal scorer that is ONLY 30 Y/O?

Is Quick even projected to be an elite goalie? I know he looks like he will be a solid goalie that is capable of helping a team win a cup but Gagne & Coburn?

You bash people for HOMERISM but you seem like the type to watch the Flyers and see the warts on their players and assume that these players on other teams play all 82 games like they do the 10-12 times a season you may see them play.
The reason I'd like to see Gagne go to be honest is to give JVR an opportunity to play on the 1st or second line and prove he was worth the 2nd overall selection in the draft. I keep hearing people talk **** on the guy and call him a bust. He played some time with Carter and Briere this year I know, but for the most part he put up solid numbers in his rookie season considering a majority of it was played on the 3rd line. And people that keep talking about trading JVR are insane. Regardless of whether or not he has lived up to where he was picked, he is a minimum cap hit, we can't afford to lose players like him.

P.S. Chris thats pretty awesome you used to work for the Ducks as a writter. I would honestly rather see Legien come up this year instead of Maroon. I also really liked Pyorala, sucks he is a F/A now, the guy reminded me a lot of Kapanen, great defensive forward with nice hands.

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06-17-2010, 10:22 AM
  #108
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To add on to my original statement, since you guys dont like Gags and Coburn going, what if the Kings were to throw in Teubert or Hickey? Sounds like overpayment to me with Quick, but I think both of those guys are going to be nasty, can't wait to see them play in the NHL. Teuberts attitude reminds me a lot of Pronger, did you see him pretty much destroy his teamate in training camp for Canada last year? And Hickey has that strong offensive and defensive ability, hes just a bit on the small side.

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Old
06-17-2010, 11:10 AM
  #109
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It would be nice to see carter play of getzlafs wing just like they did in the world juniors. Where they tore it up.

Carter's speed would be a great compliment to getzlaf and perry.

But that being said it won't happen.

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