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Hall or Seguin? The Last Seven Days...

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Old
06-20-2010, 12:41 PM
  #526
Agron
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Taylor Hall would be my choice if I went up to that podium. He knows how to perform on big stages, win, score and I just love him. That being said, I'll cheer my heart out for Seguin if we end up picking him. Both are great players and to me its a win-win situation for us. Besides, this team can't get any worse anyways.

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06-20-2010, 12:53 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Seguin was fourth in playoff scoring on his own "weak" team.

Hall not only led his "all star" team in scoring but the ohl and the Memorial Cup tournament as well.

Bringing out the "Hall played on a better team" argument holds no water when you look a little deeper.
If someone did want to buy into the argument (I do not personally) that Hall was on one of the best, if not the best team in OHL/CHL history. Then what does that say about Hall when he was clearly the best player on the best junior team in history and lead the way towards Mem Cup glories?

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06-20-2010, 12:55 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
If someone did want to buy into the argument (I do not personally) that Hall was on one of the best, if not the best team in OHL/CHL history. Then what does that say about Hall when he was clearly the best player on the best junior team in history and lead the way towards Mem Cup glories?
Um................that he was the best? Ok, lets go with that then.

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06-20-2010, 12:55 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Seguin was fourth in playoff scoring on his own "weak" team.

Hall not only led his "all star" team in scoring but the ohl and the Memorial Cup tournament as well.

Windsor was the second worst team in the ohl the year before Hall started playing there.

There really is no comparison between the two players when the chips are down in big games.

Bringing out the "Hall played on a better team" argument holds no water when you look a little deeper.
Except, Plymouth WAS a weaker team relative to Windsor. Hall DID play on an all-start team. You're invalidating the valid.

As you mention, Hall improved his team dramatically, but you're alluding to regular season, not "big games". That suggests that a great player made those around him better. Guess what Seguin did last year?

When the "chips are down", ie: this past playoff encounter, Hall was better. So was his team. Does the name Neil Sheehy ring a bell? Yet, the Oilers could come out from underneath all that carpet on account of being such a deep squad. Seguin had no such privilege. Why is it such a surprise that he didn't come out on top when the Spitfires made it their game plan to blanket him?

There is a long history of fantastic players who've been restricted by great defensive game plans in playoff hockey, that have not been subject to the same conditions you're using to define a great performer. So Seguin doesn't come through when it counts on account of the above? I just don't see that as a fair, nor a reliable predictor of how much of a "winner" Seguin will be in contrast to Hall.

Ultimately, the point to be made for BOTH players is that each of them lead their teams. It's a great place to start.

NB - I'm not "taking from" Hall. No one disputes his leadership and drive. But I don't buy the argument that in comparison, somehow something should be "taken from" Seguin.

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06-20-2010, 12:59 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by dookers9 View Post
Except, Plymouth WAS a weaker team relative to Windsor. Hall DID play on an all-start team. You're invalidating the valid.

As you mention, Hall improved his team dramatically, but you're alluding to regular season, not "big games". That suggests that a great player made those around him better. Guess what Seguin did last year?

When the "chips are down", ie: this past playoff encounter, Hall was better. So was his team. Does the name Neil Sheehy ring a bell? Yet, the Oilers could come out from underneath all that carpet on account of being such a deep squad. Seguin had no such privilege. Why is it such a surprise that he didn't come out on top when the Spitfires made it their game plan to blanket him?

There is a long history of fantastic players who've been restricted by great defensive game plans in playoff hockey, that have not been subject to the same conditions you're using to define a great performer. So Seguin doesn't come through when it counts on account of the above? I just don't see that as a fair, nor a reliable predictor of how much of a "winner" Seguin will be in contrast to Hall.

Ultimately, the point to be made for BOTH players is that each of them lead their teams. It's a great place to start.
But Seguin didnt lead his team. Fourth. Not first. Or second. Or third.

And really, do you not think Hall faces the same "blanket" as Seguin?

One player overcame, the other didnt. At all. How you could pick the guy that folded over the guy that shone under pressure is beyond my comprehension.

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06-20-2010, 01:05 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I don't find that argument compelling because I am not convinced that if Seguin was plunked in Hall's place he wouldn't have had similar results

That being said I give Hall credit for the two MVP's and thus I have given the competitive advantage to Hall but can't just ignore that Seguin did not play for what is considered one of the best, if not best teams in OHL/CHL history.
But HA, at a certain point(say June 25th) results trump maybes. Maybe Seguin would have done what Hall did in the same situation. Maybe Seguin will be the better player down the road. All very possible but the simple fact is that Hall did do those things and is the better player now. Betting the number 1 pick on potential, when there is another guy to choose from where you don't have to rely on guesswork seems like something a bad drafting team would do. After all, what if those maybes are wrong?

Imo, results beat potential.

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06-20-2010, 01:07 PM
  #532
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Brief comment by gagner regarding the draft:

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip315791#clip315791

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06-20-2010, 01:07 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I watched a number of Seguin games. His shots will not go in on an NHL goalie as often as Hall's will. Almost no one in the hockey world is arguing or expecting Seguin to be a better goal scorer at the NHL level then Hall. We can pretty much drop that as a conversation topic.
He doesn't have to score more, if he just scores the same number that's good enough.

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And yes Hall was the best player in the OHL last year, imo and certainly the best draft eligible guy. Almost every time he was on the ice, no matter who he was playing, the opposing team was scrambling to keep the puck out. Seguin gets the credit and awards because he matched Hall's scoring on a lesser team with more icetime and offensive opportunities. But Hall always came through when his team needed him to and look at his GPG and PGP in big games(WJC, playoffs, Mem. Cup). In my mind he was the guy who was most valuable to his team. No way Windsor wins the Memorial Cup without him.
That sounds impressive, glad I didn't step in it.

How is it that Hall was so dangerous and so exciting every time he stepped on the ice compared to Seguin and yet he didn't blow him away points-wise? Are you saying he lacks finish or something?

Quote:
I define BPA as the guy who helps his team win the most. And in this draft that is Hall. He was hands down the best player on one of the greatest juniour teams of all time.
He didn't finish all that far ahead of his teammates - those other high first rounders. It seems like they were doing almost as much as he was. The fact that it was one of the greatest teams of all time and he only scored 106 points in his best ever season goes a long way to explaining how far above his teammates he stands.

Quote:
Also, I think we can drop the Hall is a LW argument too. Hall is a forward and can play LW and C according to those who know best.
That would be convenient for your side of the story I guess, but the fact remains that the person who knows what's best for the Spitfires put him on the wing. He can do Hall lip service til the cows come home.

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06-20-2010, 01:09 PM
  #534
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"I have to stop going on the internet," - Tyler Seguin

This was after Hall's Windsor team swept Seguin's Plymouth's squad.

Does it not seem to anyone Seguin is more concerned with scoring races than winning hockey games? He was quoted as saying his major goal for the year was winning the scoring race, after he won the OHL player of year award

Quote:
A frustrated Seguin admitted the hype of the showdown between the projected top two picks wore on him.

"I have to stop going on the internet,"
he said following Monday's 5-0 loss. "I thought I played good (in Game 2 on Saturday), you know - (but) no results. But in the end, all the media is just like, 'Hall wins, Seguin loses.'"
Meanwhile, Hall is the polar opposite:
Quote:
Hall picked up two assists in Monday's win and now has three goals and three helpers in the series. The Windsor Spitfires forward simply looks much more at ease than his counterpart and has been one of his team's best players in the playoffs.

Unlike his rival, who is one year his junior, Hall chooses not to satisfy his curiosity by delving into the heated debate online.

"I don't really have enough time to go on the computer and search 'Taylor vs. Tyler,'" he said. "You can't get too wrapped up in all that stuff."
Here is Seguin complaining again. The NHL doesn't get easier, son.

Quote:
"I'm trying to adjust, but every time I just touch it, I have a guy on me," Seguin said.

Although Timmins can't say what Seguin had for dinner, he doesn't exactly need to look at the scoreboard to realize he's frustrating the young star.

"When he's coming off the bench and on the bench, you can see (it on) his face," Timmins said. "He's always looking down and kind of just got that angry look on his face that he's just kind of defeated out there. If we just keep going like we are, hopefully he just keeps getting more pressured.
These quotes are more telling than witty prepared answers at the combines - they should raise doubt whether he can not only handle being the number one pick (consistently being compared to Hall), but whether he can handle adversity in hockey rabid Edmonton.

If the Oilers select Seguin, I would abhor the gross injustice

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06-20-2010, 01:13 PM
  #535
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Secondary Reasons

Agree with all the above on Hall..............

But still some other secondary reasons...........He was born in Alberta (Calgary),
.........He plays a grittier game, he is a sniper...............

If this is not a natural fit for Lowe and Tambellini.........they are "nuts"...........

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06-20-2010, 01:14 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Asher View Post
Brief comment by gagner regarding the draft:

http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip315791#clip315791
GAGZ FOR CAPTAIN! gotta love him <3 (this post is irrelevant to the thread)

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06-20-2010, 01:16 PM
  #537
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I found this on the Bruins board, thanks to the poster who found it. It's a good read.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../14450706.html

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06-20-2010, 01:16 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Imo, results beat potential.
You know, I've heard the phrase "Seguin projects better down the road" and I still don't get that. I understand that if Montreal did that with Doug Wickenheiser, they would have picked him or if the North Stars would have done that with Brian Lawton, their pick would have been different.

However, I just have a problem applying this logic to Hall. I mean, he was dominant in his first WJC, he's Mem Cup MVP twice. IMO, it would be a mistake for the Oilers not to take him first.

That being said, the impact of the mistake will somehow be soften by the fact they have Seguin.

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06-20-2010, 01:17 PM
  #539
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That's a very interesting point, Wheatking. After 50 threads of the same arguments its refreshing to get a new idea.

However, I think its a stretch to say that Bouwmeester left because they drafted him 3rd but not 1st. The organization should make decisions that benefit itself, not suck up to 18 year olds who are not stars YET. We shouldn't already be sucking up to a kid out of fear that he'll ask for a trade.
I wouldn't say he left because they didn't take him first overall but it was not the kind of start they wanted to have with their 18 year old potential superstar defenseman. It left a sour taste in his mouth and things just kind of snow balled from there.

As for Seguin being more interested in the scoring race. I don't think that's totally fair to say. From what I can tell Seguin gets asked about Hall a lot more than Hall gets asked about Seguin. Maybe it's just me but I find Seguin's is constantly put in a position where he has to try and sell himself to the reporter.

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06-20-2010, 01:18 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
If someone did want to buy into the argument (I do not personally) that Hall was on one of the best, if not the best team in OHL/CHL history. Then what does that say about Hall when he was clearly the best player on the best junior team in history and lead the way towards Mem Cup glories?
He's not only a superstar franchise player, he's an uberstar franchise player


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Old
06-20-2010, 01:23 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
He doesn't have to score more, if he just scores the same number that's good enough.

That sounds impressive, glad I didn't step in it.

How is it that Hall was so dangerous and so exciting every time he stepped on the ice compared to Seguin and yet he didn't blow him away points-wise? Are you saying he lacks finish or something?

He didn't finish all that far ahead of his teammates - those other high first rounders. It seems like they were doing almost as much as he was. The fact that it was one of the greatest teams of all time and he only scored 106 points in his best ever season goes a long way to explaining how far above his teammates he stands.

That would be convenient for your side of the story I guess, but the fact remains that the person who knows what's best for the Spitfires put him on the wing. He can do Hall lip service til the cows come home.
Ok but I still don't think Seguin even matches Hall's goal output in the NHL and I've heard very few scouts suggest that as a possibility, so are all of them wrong or are you?

The opposing team was scrambling because of Hall and would often concede a goal or take the penalty dragging him down to stop one. Then, since Windsor was a strong team with 2 good PPs, quite often the PP that Hall wasn't on would start(and score) because Hall was just on the ice. Hall had a ripple effect down the lineup which allowed other players to put up better numbers. Seguin started almost all PP's for Plymouth and got the majority of offensive zone draws too. After all, he was by far the most dangerous weapon they had, why wouldn't they play the crap out of him? Oh and Hall played a less games too. But hey, don't take my word for it, plop down the money and watch the games yourself, you'll see what I'm talking about, it's pretty noticeable how often Hall spends 90% of his shift in the opposing zone.

If you watch the games you will see Hall is hands down far more dangerous then any of those other first round picks. Best player on a great team beats best player on an average team.

And that exact same person who knows best and played him on the leftwing has flat out said Hall can play C at the NHL level. Seems you are being awful selective in which information you deem important from him. He said Hall was his most versatile forward and would be effective anywhere when some of his other Cs wouldn't, how is that lip service?


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06-20-2010, 01:24 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post

He didn't finish all that far ahead of his teammates - those other high first rounders. It seems like they were doing almost as much as he was. The fact that it was one of the greatest teams of all time and he only scored 106 points in his best ever season goes a long way to explaining how far above his teammates he stands.
You just validated why Hall made his teammates better. Nemisz and Henrique were 20-30 pt players the year before Hall played. Then it more than doubled the next season. Sounds like Hall had an impact in their game does it not?

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06-20-2010, 01:48 PM
  #543
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It seems like people are punishing Hall and saying we shouldn't draft him, just because he has a good team.. am I not right? To me its like saying we should get Steve Stamkos over Alex Ovechkin cause "OH MAH GAD STEVEN STAMKOZ HAD 95 POINTZ ON A BAAD TEAM SOZ WE SHUD GET HIM INSTEAD OF ALEX OVECHKINZ CAZ OVECHKINZ HAD SEMIN" Just an analogy... It may not be the best, but its how I see it.

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06-20-2010, 02:24 PM
  #544
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Here's a guessing game:

Which team is which

Team A: 06/07 pts: 43 07/08 pts: 94 08/09 pts: 115 09/10 pts: 106

Team B: 06/07 pts: 103 07/08 pts: 74 08/09 pts: 79 09/10 pts: 79

Seems to me that one team got much better after 06/07 and one team was rather average.

Who is Team A and Team B? One hint, the 2 teams are the Windsor Spitfires and Plymouth Whalers

Oh Yeah, and when was Hall drafted by the Windsor Spitfires?


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Old
06-20-2010, 03:13 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimson View Post
What is really worrying is that I find it hard to believe that almost every single local media person (except Stauffer) in Edmonton will be wrong come June 25th.
Some hints that Matty thinks the Oilers will be draft Hall as well.

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06-20-2010, 03:16 PM
  #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Here's a guessing game:

Which team is which

Team A: 06/07 pts: 43 07/08 pts: 94 08/09 pts: 115 09/10 pts: 106

Team B: 06/07 pts: 103 07/08 pts: 74 08/09 pts: 79 09/10 pts: 79

Seems to me that one team got much better after 06/07 and one team was rather average.

Who is Team A and Team B? One hint, the 2 teams are the Windsor Spitfires and Plymouth Whalers

Oh Yeah, and when was Hall drafted by the Windsor Spitfires?
Is the point you're trying to make that Boughner and Rychel are smart men?

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06-20-2010, 03:41 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
How is it that Hall was so dangerous and so exciting every time he stepped on the ice compared to Seguin and yet he didn't blow him away points-wise? Are you saying he lacks finish or something?
You are conveniently missing the fact Seguin had 6 more games played. Pro-rating Hall's PPG, that's 11 point difference.

Not to mention Seguin was heavily ridden (Read: TOI) , while Windsor rolled 4 lines.

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06-20-2010, 03:43 PM
  #548
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As much as Seguin has grown on me, to the point where I now believe that the players are virtually identitcal skill wise, I don't see any reasonable pretense under which the Oil can choose Seguin over Hall.

I think Tambo will prudently pass on "potential" and "need" and take the much more proven player in Hall.

Just like the Pens, Caps, 'Hawks, Bolts, and Isles took Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Stamkos, and Tavares when they were supposed to, the Oil will take Hall. The Blues are still smarting over passing on Toews and, to a lesser extent, Staal in favour of Johnson and I think Tambo will be smart enough to not make the same mistake as the Blues.

To be fair, Was and TB basically had can't miss scenarios, and that very well could be the case this year, but the fact that they went with who they were supposed to is a lesson in itself, imho.


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06-20-2010, 03:47 PM
  #549
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Is the point you're trying to make that Boughner and Rychel are smart men?
Nopers...but since you mentioned it, they probably are smart men for drafting Hall...IMO

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06-20-2010, 03:50 PM
  #550
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Nopers...but since you mentioned it, they probably are smart men for drafting Hall...IMO
They're lucky he and his fahja didn't want to go to the Otters...according to Otters fans.

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