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(from summer 2010) Gagne for Tim Thomas

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Old
06-20-2010, 02:39 PM
  #26
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Gagne goes no where.

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06-20-2010, 03:22 PM
  #27
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06-20-2010, 03:49 PM
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I hope this doesn't happen.

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06-20-2010, 07:31 PM
  #29
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No way. Gagne is far more an asset to this team than Thomas ever could be, especially for the kind of money Thomas would cost us. Gagne is a solid 2-way player who still has quite the desire to be an impact player. As far as the Recchi talk, I remember that guy having some afwul sort of distaste for Philly before he left the team.

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06-20-2010, 07:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by forsbergfan24 View Post
No way. Gagne is far more an asset to this team than Thomas ever could be, especially for the kind of money Thomas would cost us. Gagne is a solid 2-way player who still has quite the desire to be an impact player. As far as the Recchi talk, I remember that guy having some afwul sort of distaste for Philly before he left the team.

I wasn't advocating that the Flyers make that particular move, just noting that Thomas is one of several possibilities apparently in play.

Gagne certainly is still valuable and contributes defensively even when he isn't scoring. But, to play devil's advocate, he's a year away from being a UFA (and, no, he won't take a pay cut just to be a career Flyer), injury prone and has had down years in two of the last three seasons. He made a courageous and effective comeback in the playoffs this year, but also faded in the Final.

Again, to play devil's advocate, Thomas may be 36, but he's a year removed from winning the Vezina and it wasn't like he was horrible this past season -- Rask was just better. In a win-now scenario, Thomas would arguably be a better option than any of the free agent goalies in the market.

No, I don't like his huge cap hit or the length of his contract -- and, ultimately, I think it should also scare off the Flyers. But to say Thomas doesn't have a certain intrigue as a possibility to a club that was awfully close to the Cup with Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher as the goalies, is inaccurate.

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06-20-2010, 08:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post

Again, to play devil's advocate, Thomas may be 36, but he's a year removed from winning the Vezina and it wasn't like he was horrible this past season -- Rask was just better. In a win-now scenario, Thomas would arguably be a better option than any of the free agent goalies in the market.

No, I don't like his huge cap hit or the length of his contract -- and, ultimately, I think it should also scare off the Flyers. But to say Thomas doesn't have a certain intrigue as a possibility to a club that was awfully close to the Cup with Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher as the goalies, is inaccurate.
I agree Bill....obviously the cap hit is scary especially given how hemmed in the Flyers have been with the cap the last couple of years but really ...let's be honest..the Flyers are still built for now and they have a two year window to try and make it back and win a cup. The idea of assembling a strong team from the net up is never a bad strategy. The Flyers stacking the D and then backing it up with a vezina goalie is not such bad thinking in the short term especially if it can give you the best chance to win a cup after a 36 year drought and coming two wins away from ending it.

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06-20-2010, 08:24 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
Gagne certainly is still valuable and contributes defensively even when he isn't scoring. But, to play devil's advocate, he's a year away from being a UFA (and, no, he won't take a pay cut just to be a career Flyer), injury prone and has had down years in two of the last three seasons. He made a courageous and effective comeback in the playoffs this year, but also faded in the Final.
He'll have to take a paycut, because he's no longer a 5+ milllion winger anymore. As you said, injury prone and has had down years in 2 of the last 3 seasons.

If the Flyers give him 4-5 years with an average at 3.5-4 million, I'd think he'd take it.

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06-20-2010, 08:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
I wasn't advocating that the Flyers make that particular move, just noting that Thomas is one of several possibilities apparently in play.

Gagne certainly is still valuable and contributes defensively even when he isn't scoring. But, to play devil's advocate, he's a year away from being a UFA (and, no, he won't take a pay cut just to be a career Flyer), injury prone and has had down years in two of the last three seasons. He made a courageous and effective comeback in the playoffs this year, but also faded in the Final.
I don't think anyone would go ahead an proclaim that Gagne is the same winger that scored 88 goals in two seasons.

I am however curious as to where his explosion went. At the beginning of 2008-09, the year after returning from a concussion, he practically went on a point-rampage. He was pacing among the league leaders for the first few months and then sort of disappeared.

Well, there's no doubt he's getting advanced in age, but I think, if he'd re-sign in Philadelphia for a moderate discount, the organization would be more than happy to let him retire here.

There are other factors that play into that though, not the least include Giroux, Carter, and Leino coming up for new contracts that same offseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
Again, to play devil's advocate, Thomas may be 36, but he's a year removed from winning the Vezina and it wasn't like he was horrible this past season -- Rask was just better. In a win-now scenario, Thomas would arguably be a better option than any of the free agent goalies in the market.
I honestly don't believe we are in a win-now scenario. I believe we are trying our best to keep our team a continuous contender for the championship long-term. I don't believe in windows in hockey if your team can draft well. The Flyers have, and despite what people may believe about trading all of our draft picks, the reason that the Flyers are in the position they're in is because they've moved those draft picks and players for talent. Not necessarily all of that talent was older either. The Flyers are still a very young team, and Giroux, along with vanRiemsdyk, are a big part of keeping them as legitimate contenders long-term.

We are going to have to replenish our prospect pool soon. Innovative in-season scouting, like the season Holmgren put together this year, will not work every year.

That said, you have to believe that Gagne is on the way out next year, unfortunate as it is, because it's very unlikely Briere is moved. It will probably come down to one or the other.

So let's play devil's advocate and you move Gagne for Thomas. You, in essence, lock up Gagne's salary on this team at the let's say $3m (leaving the $2m off that would have been spent on a goalie anyway) both on an aging Tim Thomas on a 35+ contract. He won the Vezina behind a very strong team, and the Flyers are a strong team who can help him succeed.

Even so, you put an inherent risk on your other assets. The goal, in theory, would be to let Gagne walk so you can promote Giroux or JVR and eventually give them more ice time to go along with their new contracts. You give that cap space to Thomas, and there suddenly is no more room to give those players their post-ELC deals. If they breakout sooner than expected, the Flyers could be in a ton of trouble. It may not Giroux or JVR who go, but someone on top of Gagne will feel it.

Once you start taking pieces off a team that thrives on depth to keep itself competitive, you start putting more pressure on the goalie. The reason the Flyers were able to succeed with the lesser talents of Boucher and Leighton was because they had a deep enough roster to take pressure off of their goaltending. Without that safety net in place, you're asking an aging Thomas, who has never been strong behind teams with thinner rosters, to carry you.

I think putting yourself into that situation is ultimately a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
No, I don't like his huge cap hit or the length of his contract -- and, ultimately, I think it should also scare off the Flyers. But to say Thomas doesn't have a certain intrigue as a possibility to a club that was awfully close to the Cup with Michael Leighton and Brian Boucher as the goalies, is inaccurate.
I agree that there's intrigue, but I don't consider Thomas even a top 15 goalie despite his numbers and his Vezina. I don't think he is any better necessarily than Turco or even Mason who can be had on the open market for much cheaper contracts that I don't believe would hold a 35+ risk either.


Last edited by CS: 06-20-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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Old
06-20-2010, 08:43 PM
  #34
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hey I love gagne, but Boston throws in Toronto's 1st rounder and you got a deal!

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06-20-2010, 09:08 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't think anyone would go ahead an proclaim that Gagne is the same winger that scored 88 goals in two seasons.

I am however curious as to where his explosion went. At the beginning of 2008-09, the year after returning from a concussion, he practically went on a point-rampage. He was pacing among the league leaders for the first few months and then sort of disappeared.

Well, there's no doubt he's getting advanced in age, but I think, if he'd re-sign in Philadelphia for a moderate discount, the organization would be more than happy to let him retire here.

There are other factors that play into that though, not the least include Giroux, Carter, and Leino coming up for new contracts that same offseason.



I honestly don't believe we are in a win-now scenario. I believe we are trying our best to keep our team a continuous contender for the championship long-term. I don't believe in windows in hockey if your team can draft well. The Flyers have, and despite what people may believe about trading all of our draft picks, the reason that the Flyers are in the position they're in is because they've moved those draft picks and players for talent. Not necessarily all of that talent was older either. The Flyers are still a very young team, and Giroux, along with vanRiemsdyk, are a big part of keeping them as legitimate contenders long-term.

We are going to have to replenish our prospect pool soon. Innovative in-season scouting, like the season Holmgren put together this year, will not work every year.

That said, you have to believe that Gagne is on the way out next year, unfortunate as it is, because it's very unlikely Briere is moved. It will probably come down to one or the other.

So let's play devil's advocate and you move Gagne for Thomas. You, in essence, lock up Gagne's salary on this team at the let's say $3m (leaving the $2m off that would have been spent on a goalie anyway) both on an aging Tim Thomas on a 35+ contract. He won the Vezina behind a very strong team, and the Flyers are a strong team who can help him succeed.

Even so, you put an inherent risk on your other assets. The goal, in theory, would be to let Gagne walk so you can promote Giroux or JVR and eventually give them more ice time to go along with their new contracts. You give that cap space to Thomas, and there suddenly is no more room to give those players their post-ELC deals. If they breakout sooner than expected, the Flyers could be in a ton of trouble. It may not Giroux or JVR who go, but someone on top of Gagne will feel it.

Once you start taking pieces off a team that thrives on depth to keep itself competitive, you start putting more pressure on the goalie. The reason the Flyers were able to succeed with the lesser talents of Boucher and Leighton was because they had a deep enough roster to take pressure off of their goaltending. Without that safety net in place, you're asking an aging Thomas, who has never been strong behind teams with thinner rosters, to carry you.

I think putting yourself into that situation is ultimately a bad idea.



I agree that there's intrigue, but I don't consider Thomas even a top 15 goalie despite his numbers and his Vezina. I don't think he is any better necessarily than Turco or even Mason who can be had on the open market for much cheaper contracts that I don't believe would hold a 35+ risk either.
This is solid right here. I have to agree with your long-term analysis, as well as your bit on chipping pieces of our depth off in order to create cap space for the short-term things and how it would have a detrimental effect to the Flyers chances with an aging goalie, most likely on the way out. With prospects like Bobrovsky and Eriksson, what do you think the organization looks for in a goalie for the team at hand now?

All of these trade rumors and such with the different teams and options have been an onslaught. I can imagine that teams are aware of the need for a solid #1 in the Flyers organization and would play that card to try and get a little more than just say, Carter (used as an example, since he's the main name I am hearing being thrown around in all of these rumors). These weeks ahead shall be rather interesting as the time ticks by and we watch it all unfold.

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06-20-2010, 09:25 PM
  #36
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Say No To Thomas. I dontthink I can take goals like the one he gave up in the winter classic, his age and the contract all rolled up into 1 package.

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06-20-2010, 09:27 PM
  #37
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Thomas is having hip surgery, and might not be ready for training camp.


pass

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06-20-2010, 10:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't think anyone would go ahead an proclaim that Gagne is the same winger that scored 88 goals in two seasons.

I am however curious as to where his explosion went. At the beginning of 2008-09, the year after returning from a concussion, he practically went on a point-rampage. He was pacing among the league leaders for the first few months and then sort of disappeared.

Well, there's no doubt he's getting advanced in age, but I think, if he'd re-sign in Philadelphia for a moderate discount, the organization would be more than happy to let him retire here.

There are other factors that play into that though, not the least include Giroux, Carter, and Leino coming up for new contracts that same offseason.



I honestly don't believe we are in a win-now scenario. I believe we are trying our best to keep our team a continuous contender for the championship long-term. I don't believe in windows in hockey if your team can draft well. The Flyers have, and despite what people may believe about trading all of our draft picks, the reason that the Flyers are in the position they're in is because they've moved those draft picks and players for talent. Not necessarily all of that talent was older either. The Flyers are still a very young team, and Giroux, along with vanRiemsdyk, are a big part of keeping them as legitimate contenders long-term.

We are going to have to replenish our prospect pool soon. Innovative in-season scouting, like the season Holmgren put together this year, will not work every year.

That said, you have to believe that Gagne is on the way out next year, unfortunate as it is, because it's very unlikely Briere is moved. It will probably come down to one or the other.

So let's play devil's advocate and you move Gagne for Thomas. You, in essence, lock up Gagne's salary on this team at the let's say $3m (leaving the $2m off that would have been spent on a goalie anyway) both on an aging Tim Thomas on a 35+ contract. He won the Vezina behind a very strong team, and the Flyers are a strong team who can help him succeed.

Even so, you put an inherent risk on your other assets. The goal, in theory, would be to let Gagne walk so you can promote Giroux or JVR and eventually give them more ice time to go along with their new contracts. You give that cap space to Thomas, and there suddenly is no more room to give those players their post-ELC deals. If they breakout sooner than expected, the Flyers could be in a ton of trouble. It may not Giroux or JVR who go, but someone on top of Gagne will feel it.

Once you start taking pieces off a team that thrives on depth to keep itself competitive, you start putting more pressure on the goalie. The reason the Flyers were able to succeed with the lesser talents of Boucher and Leighton was because they had a deep enough roster to take pressure off of their goaltending. Without that safety net in place, you're asking an aging Thomas, who has never been strong behind teams with thinner rosters, to carry you.

I think putting yourself into that situation is ultimately a bad idea.



I agree that there's intrigue, but I don't consider Thomas even a top 15 goalie despite his numbers and his Vezina. I don't think he is any better necessarily than Turco or even Mason who can be had on the open market for much cheaper contracts that I don't believe would hold a 35+ risk either.
So in a couple of years when the two main anchors on D (Pronger and Timonen) are slowed even more with age, wear and tear and possibly nagging injuries like Hatcher etc....who do the Flyers have in the system that will have the kind of impact that Pronger and Timonen have? I mean these guys are two all stars and they are not going to be playing forever especially at 20 plus minutes per game. I do believe in windows when you have two all stars on your team that are not exactly easily replaced.

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06-20-2010, 11:07 PM
  #39
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So in a couple of years when the two main anchors on D (Pronger and Timonen) are slowed even more with age, wear and tear and possibly nagging injuries like Hatcher etc....who do the Flyers have in the system that will have the kind of impact that Pronger and Timonen have? I mean these guys are two all stars and they are not going to be playing forever especially at 20 plus minutes per game. I do believe in windows when you have two all stars on your team that are not exactly easily replaced.
That's why you want to hold onto guys like Coburn/Carle/Hamhuis while trying to draft a future top pairing defenseman.

We have time, but we need to get some bluechip defensemen and wingers in the mix soon.

You're incorrect about the window thing. If you want this to be just a window before we rebuild, then you can keep believing that's what we're going for.

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06-20-2010, 11:09 PM
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I don't understand why you would move someone of Gagne's talent and give that up for a goaltender during one of the best FA goaltending markets. Get someone cheap and keep Gagne.

Win / win vs Win / lose

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06-20-2010, 11:32 PM
  #41
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Bad deal. A 36 year old goalie with that high of a cap hit isn't worth giving anything valuable for. Boston should be begging teams to take him away at this point.
Exactly. Especially with the length of that cap hit.

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06-20-2010, 11:33 PM
  #42
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That's why you want to hold onto guys like Coburn/Carle/Hamhuis while trying to draft a future top pairing defenseman.

We have time, but we need to get some bluechip defensemen and wingers in the mix soon.

You're incorrect about the window thing. If you want this to be just a window before we rebuild, then you can keep believing that's what we're going for.
The likelihood of drafting potential impact/ future all star D men like Timonen and Pronger if your not picking high in the 1st round in particular of the draft or are not the Red Wings is pretty low. You can get lucky by drafting in the middle and maybe snagging a Sbisa or a Carlson who the Flyers essentially gave up for Eminger but deep drafts are few and far between. Flyers with the current crop unless they play jekyl and Hyde again in the regular season will probably always be lower down in the first round when they have their first rounder starting next year again (hopefully). This means they would have to acquire stud D men like Pronger and Timonen in free agency and trades again which is not exactly easy and can thin yourself out if you have to give up picks/prospects like we did Pronger otherwise they wouldn't be considered "bluechips." I'm not saying the flyers have to rebuild b/c they never really go down that route of stinking for years to pick up the Crosby's, Malkin's, Doughty's etc. However, like you said they have to get more chips in SOON...which suggests a window doesn't it?

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06-20-2010, 11:38 PM
  #43
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That's why you want to hold onto guys like Coburn/Carle/Hamhuis while trying to draft a future top pairing defenseman.

We have time, but we need to get some bluechip defensemen and wingers in the mix soon.

You're incorrect about the window thing. If you want this to be just a window before we rebuild, then you can keep believing that's what we're going for.
I don't see how you can say there isn't a window....most teams very sporadically make Finals appearances, and some of them completely fail to be competitive after. I mean, this was our first trip to the SCF in over a decade. Granted, we've had a few ECF appearances since, but especially in a salary cap NHL, it's very difficult to keep the right mix of talented vets and talented youngin's on cheap/ELC deals and then get lucky enough to stay healthy for a long playoff run in those years with the right mixture.

We can't keep the depth and talent that we have right now together forever.

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06-20-2010, 11:39 PM
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I say no.

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06-20-2010, 11:47 PM
  #45
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We can't keep the depth and talent that we have right now together forever.
Exactly that is my argument. In a cap league if you are not active in moving around "parts" and changing it up to keep the team competitive and with the right mix of vets and young players not to mention team chemistry you get left behind. It's not an easy job for GM's anymore that is for sure..

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06-21-2010, 12:02 AM
  #46
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06-21-2010, 02:08 AM
  #47
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i have a counter offer:

we keep gagne, the bruins keep thomas, we sign turco, we trade carle for picks/prospects/3rd line d-man
Did you see Turco play last year?

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06-21-2010, 03:07 AM
  #48
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is this a ****ing joke? seriously, none of this makes any sense for reasons that everyone else has explained here. There are plenty of smart ways to find a good goalie that doesnt have the baggage of tim thomas. trading away leaders of this team to land an old, expensive, (injured?/surgery) goalie who really was never that good but managed to put together a decent year makes 0.0 sense and how the **** does that equate to a win now mentality? the team obviously gets worse! lets just sign a bunch of 40 year old dudes because if were going to win it'll have to be now. we came so close with michael leighton in goal as bad as he was, im not advocating bringing his sorry ass back here but it makes more sense and we'd make it farther than dumping gagne to get tim thomas. shame on the dou che bag that suggested this. wtf

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06-21-2010, 03:24 AM
  #49
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Did you see Turco play last year?
Fair enough. But did you see the D-Core in front of him? I wasn't impressed anytime i saw them.

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06-21-2010, 06:25 AM
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Fair enough. But did you see the D-Core in front of him? I wasn't impressed anytime i saw them.
That is also true. Props.

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