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Old
06-21-2010, 11:38 AM
  #76
Larry44
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yep, and this is the exact type of crap with Holmgren that drives me up the wall. The problem is obvious, and the potential solution is also obvious. I'm not saying to give away one of Coburn/Carle, but I don't see how having 4 D in that price range makes sense given the hole in goal. Perhaps you create that space from the forwards (not a terrible idea... but the 5 D situation would remain problematic against the cap in the coming years potentially), but the more obvious trade chip seems to be Coburn/Carle.

I love this move if that's how they approached it. Hamhuis is better than Carle/Coburn, and then we can use them to get other parts and use that cap space on another position. I mean, if you swing a deal for Schneider centered around Coburn, I think that's a great overall use of assets. You've gotten (short term at least) improvement on D, and put a very good goalie prospect in the system (and, in that case, likely on the roster).
Agreed. He almost HAS to trade one of Carle or Coburn now. If you think Hamhuis is a better partner for Pronger, trade Carle. I really like the way Coburn is developing too.

The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.

If they could trade Hartnell's contract for a goalie prospect, then sign a biggish winger like Eric Nystrom or Taylor Pyatt to replace him, it would make more sense.

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06-21-2010, 11:41 AM
  #77
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As close as this team is a cup I can't really see and of the NMC/NTC guys waiving their clauses. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that Carters lack of one, coupled with our other 4 centers, makes him the most likely dude to go of the forwards.

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06-21-2010, 11:41 AM
  #78
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I wouldn't be opposed to keeping all 5 D men, if we dump Hartnell

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06-21-2010, 11:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Agreed. He almost HAS to trade one of Carle or Coburn now. If you think Hamhuis is a better partner for Pronger, trade Carle. I really like the way Coburn is developing too.

The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.

If they could trade Hartnell's contract for a goalie prospect, then sign a biggish winger like Eric Nystrom or Taylor Pyatt to replace him, it would make more sense.
You like the way Coburn is developing? He has made 0 strides mentally, perhaps even negative. He is a damn near retard with making the right decisions, not only with the puck on his stick but positionally as well.

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06-21-2010, 11:43 AM
  #80
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Yeah, I see this as two options. Move Gagne for a goalie or space for a goalie, or move Carle for some space. Going uber cheap in net is not an option, unless the market is so flooded that Turco can be had for 1.5, which I think is a million short

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06-21-2010, 11:44 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.
Having seen him a fair bit, he definitely is better than both. Coburn has the potential to be better, but he's not quite there

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06-21-2010, 11:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Agreed. He almost HAS to trade one of Carle or Coburn now. If you think Hamhuis is a better partner for Pronger, trade Carle. I really like the way Coburn is developing too.

The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.

If they could trade Hartnell's contract for a goalie prospect, then sign a biggish winger like Eric Nystrom or Taylor Pyatt to replace him, it would make more sense.
I get a lot of Preds games because of my dish feed from Nashville and IMO Hammer is an upgrade over both Coburn and Carle. He is steadier for one and makes many smarter def zone outlet passes. Is he better than Coburn in the playoffs? Maybe, but certainly over his reg season he is better. I think he walks in (if signed) as our 3rd best D, mind you a long way behind the first 2.

I for one would far rather see a forward moved than a D. They seem to be easier holes to fill when injuries happen. Yeah sure this year the big 4 all stayed healthy but that isn't always the case, and usually isn't the norm. Does everyone forget 2 years ago when we lost multiple guys on the D and needed Modry and company? This year we lost Carter and Gagne as still won games. Had that been say Pronger and Coburn or Timmonen and Carle I'm not so confident we would have. Suddenly our bottom 4 d would look pretty bleak.

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06-21-2010, 11:53 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Agreed. He almost HAS to trade one of Carle or Coburn now. If you think Hamhuis is a better partner for Pronger, trade Carle. I really like the way Coburn is developing too.

The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.

If they could trade Hartnell's contract for a goalie prospect, then sign a biggish winger like Eric Nystrom or Taylor Pyatt to replace him, it would make more sense.
I think Hamhuis is better than Coburn and Carle, but it was an upgrade that wasn't needed and will be costlier. I like it even less if they do not trade a defenseman. He needed to upgrade the 3rd pairing, so he goes out and deals for a pricey top 4 defenseman? Makes no sense. He manages like he is managing a fantasy team. All they needed was a solid vet that could eat minutes on the 3rd pairing.

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06-21-2010, 11:54 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Agreed. He almost HAS to trade one of Carle or Coburn now. If you think Hamhuis is a better partner for Pronger, trade Carle. I really like the way Coburn is developing too.

The frustrating thing about the Hamhuis deal is that I'm not convinced he's a real upgrade on either, and he's going to cost a lot more.

If they could trade Hartnell's contract for a goalie prospect, then sign a biggish winger like Eric Nystrom or Taylor Pyatt to replace him, it would make more sense.
I would prefer to move Carle, but that's dependent on the Coburn contract status.

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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
I get a lot of Preds games because of my dish feed from Nashville and IMO Hammer is an upgrade over both Coburn and Carle. He is steadier for one and makes many smarter def zone outlet passes. Is he better than Coburn in the playoffs? Maybe, but certainly over his reg season he is better. I think he walks in (if signed) as our 3rd best D, mind you a long way behind the first 2.

I for one would far rather see a forward moved than a D. They seem to be easier holes to fill when injuries happen. Yeah sure this year the big 4 all stayed healthy but that isn't always the case, and usually isn't the norm. Does everyone forget 2 years ago when we lost multiple guys on the D and needed Modry and company? This year we lost Carter and Gagne as still won games. Had that been say Pronger and Coburn or Timmonen and Carle I'm not so confident we would have. Suddenly our bottom 4 d would look pretty bleak.
The reality is that injuries are killer under a salary cap, and you just can't avoid that fact unless you are very deep with young, cheap players.

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06-21-2010, 12:12 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The reality is that injuries are killer under a salary cap, and you just can't avoid that fact unless you are very deep with young, cheap players.
Very true. I'm just saying that I think the injuries are felt more on D, especially in the playoffs. Very few teams have depth past 7th or maybe 8th d (and the 5th and 6th often have huge holes in their game) , but most teams can throw a number of guys into the forward position and they won't cost the team a game.

Lets theoretically say the injuries were 3 players all either forward or all D. Which lineup would you rather have in game 7 of the SCF:

Gagne Richards Carter
Hartnell Briere Leino
JVR Giroux Asham
Powe Betts Lappy

Carle Krajacek
Parent Bartulis
Marshall Lehtviouri

or

Hartnell Briere Leino
JVR Giroux Asham
Powe Betts Lappy
Carcillo Kalinsky Nodl

Pronger Carle
Timmonen Coburn
Krajacek Bartulis

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06-21-2010, 12:14 PM
  #86
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But you can't plan for injuries... that's the point. If you go heavy on depth at D, what's to say you won't have the injuries at forward? Or, like this year, in goal? You create the best possible team you can in August, and hope for the best. You may get killed with injuries... you may have none, you don't know.

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06-21-2010, 12:20 PM
  #87
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ive seen glimpses of coburn playing well on defense. his offense is gone. he has real good speed. but hes been blah till the playoffs.

Quote:
Holmgren said he "doesn't see why not" he wouldn't be able to sign Hamhuis and Coburn
-tweeted. twitted? tweet.

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06-21-2010, 12:58 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
From Frank Seravalli.

Limiting their damn options for a goalie...Homer better not mess this up and get another ****** goalie
It's possible Homer is serious, but if he actually does want to move one of Carle or Coburn, he's not going to come out and say that the doesn't think he can sign them both. He wants to have some semblance of leverage in a trade even though everyone will know what he's up to.

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06-21-2010, 02:40 PM
  #89
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I wouldn't be surprised to see the return of Marty Biron for 1.5 to 2 million.

Assuming Coburn stays and Holmgren can get him below 2.5 mil, our Top 5 in front of Biron wouldn't be too bad (definitely an upgrade from last season).

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06-21-2010, 02:47 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
But you can't plan for injuries... that's the point. If you go heavy on depth at D, what's to say you won't have the injuries at forward? Or, like this year, in goal? You create the best possible team you can in August, and hope for the best. You may get killed with injuries... you may have none, you don't know.
That's true but I think an examination of what has killed the majority teams down the stretch and in the playoffs has more often been throwing AHL quality talent onto the blue line due to injuries. If the choice is between carrying some extra forward depth or another backup goalie or an extra NHL level defender then the choice is an easy one for me to make.

That being said, Homer needs to be really careful if he thinks he can keep both Carle and Coburn. Though perhaps he is waiting until Coburn has a contract to trade him?

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06-21-2010, 02:52 PM
  #91
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That's true but I think an examination of what has killed the majority teams down the stretch and in the playoffs has more often been throwing AHL quality talent onto the blue line due to injuries. If the choice is between carrying some extra forward depth or another backup goalie or an extra NHL level defender then the choice is an easy one for me to make.

That being said, Homer needs to be really careful if he thinks he can keep both Carle and Coburn. Though perhaps he is waiting until Coburn has a contract to trade him?
I think I'd agree that depth on the blue line can bite you a bit quicker, but I'm not sure that means you handicap yourself elsewhere in August. If you need to make a move by the deadline, you make a move... especially now that we will be out from our LTIR problem with Rathje, we will have a bit more deadline flexibility if Holmgren isn't an idiot.

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06-21-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think I'd agree that depth on the blue line can bite you a bit quicker, but I'm not sure that means you handicap yourself elsewhere in August. If you need to make a move by the deadline, you make a move... especially now that we will be out from our LTIR problem with Rathje, we will have a bit more deadline flexibility if Holmgren isn't an idiot.


Please, allow me to retort.

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06-21-2010, 02:55 PM
  #93
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4 years for 4 million?
4 years at 4.5 with a option year on the end

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06-21-2010, 02:57 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
4 years at 4.5 with a option year on the end
don't exist.

I do think 4 years and the 4.5M neighborhood sounds right, though.

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06-21-2010, 03:02 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
4 years at 4.5 with a option year on the end
I don't believe option year's exist under the current CBA, could be wrong on that. Ultimately I think we're looking at a long term deal here, I imagine for us to sign him without killing our cap it's gotta be in the range of what Ohlund got last year from Tampa so I'm going to say between 6 and 8 years at between 3.5 and 4 for the cap hit, partial NTC.

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06-21-2010, 03:02 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
don't exist.

I do think 4 years and the 4.5M neighborhood sounds right, though.
I would not be a fan of that contract to be honest. I think for 4.5 million, you need to contribute more offensively than Hamhuis does. The longer this goes on, the more worried I get.

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06-21-2010, 03:07 PM
  #97
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I would not be a fan of that contract to be honest. I think for 4.5 million, you need to contribute more offensively than Hamhuis does. The longer this goes on, the more worried I get.
Competent, 20+ minutes a night, UFA D cost coin... that's just the way it is. That's why trading one of Carle/Coburn makes so much sense going along with this trade.

Hamhuis can also contribute a bit offensively. He has a 38 point season on his resume... if you stick him with Timonen or Pronger he'll get some assists. If he gets out on the PP, he'll get some points there as well.

I mean, Matt Carle had a rebound year to 35 pts this year, and Pronger had a LOT to do with him getting up to that point total.

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06-21-2010, 03:13 PM
  #98
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I dont think hes going to get over 4 million. I can see him at 3.5 million for 3 years.

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06-21-2010, 03:19 PM
  #99
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I dont think hes going to get over 4 million. I can see him at 3.5 million for 3 years.
optimism... a dangerous feeling in the era of Holmgren signings

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06-21-2010, 03:24 PM
  #100
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I dont think hes going to get over 4 million. I can see him at 3.5 million for 3 years.
Way too optimistic IMO. I'd be pretty shocked if he came in at under 4. I could only see that happening if we are looking at 5, maybe 6+ years. Approaching 4.5 per year is what worries me though.

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