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Howe Vs Orr?

View Poll Results: Howe Vs Orr?
Howe 32 31.07%
Orr 71 68.93%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-21-2010, 12:32 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
So the basic argument comes down to whether you think Orr's peak of 6 years is so much greater than Howe's that it effectively cancels out 15 extra years of Howe's prime where he was remarkably still a top player in the world.

Orr's peak was better than Howe's
Howe's prime was better
Howe's career was better

Howe's peak has been shown numerous times to be similar or better than Lemieux... how many of you would be still arguing for Orr if Lemieux had 6 Harts and maintained his game like Howe? Because everyone here would have seen and experienced it (as opposed to Howe), I doubt many would argue Orr over Lemieux in that case.

No one here was watching hockey in the 30s and 40s and has the proper context to personally express just what Howe brought to the game in the 50s and how unique and remarkable he was. His impact and dominance of the game, from reading articles at the time, seems to be on a similar level. At a time when Hull's slapshot was recorded at 118 mph, Howe's wrist shot was recorded at 114 mph - and he was ambidexterous!
Please tell me you don't actually believe that... that's actually impossible with sticks then, especially the wrist shot. I'm willing to bet Howe never shot a wrist shot above 70 miles let alone 114. I've seen enough games of him to know that. Even with the new composite sticks which are far improved for quickness of shot release and shot velocity over modern day wooden sticks, no one can even approach those numbers now with either a wrist or slapshot!

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06-21-2010, 12:53 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
Please tell me you don't actually believe that... that's actually impossible with sticks then, especially the wrist shot. I'm willing to bet Howe never shot a wrist shot above 70 miles let alone 114. I've seen enough games of him to know that. Even with the new composite sticks which are far improved for quickness of shot release and shot velocity over modern day wooden sticks, no one can even approach those numbers now with either a wrist or slapshot!
I believe the story is that the stick Hull used (not sure about Howe) was much heavier than league rules allow now-a-days. Having that extra mass was the reason he was able to generate what seems like impossible rates of speed on his shots.

I read an article not too long ago that had all the weight numbers...I just did a quick search, but can't seem to find it. Anyone else know where to find that one?

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06-21-2010, 01:00 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
Please tell me you don't actually believe that... that's actually impossible with sticks then, especially the wrist shot. I'm willing to bet Howe never shot a wrist shot above 70 miles let alone 114. I've seen enough games of him to know that. Even with the new composite sticks which are far improved for quickness of shot release and shot velocity over modern day wooden sticks, no one can even approach those numbers now with either a wrist or slapshot!
I can believe that Hull may have shot his slapshot that hard because:

1) He specialized in the slapshot, constantly practicing it, while players today practice a much larger variety of skills

2) Probably most importantly, he had a stick that would be blatantly illegal today.

A 114 MPH wristshot seems... really unlikely though.

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06-21-2010, 01:03 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
This is just some very bizarre logic.
Agree.

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06-21-2010, 02:15 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
Please tell me you don't actually believe that... that's actually impossible with sticks then, especially the wrist shot. I'm willing to bet Howe never shot a wrist shot above 70 miles let alone 114. I've seen enough games of him to know that. Even with the new composite sticks which are far improved for quickness of shot release and shot velocity over modern day wooden sticks, no one can even approach those numbers now with either a wrist or slapshot!
I just listed it in context - whether you believe Hull's slapshot was that hard or not (I believe other sources have it ever higher), Howe's wrist shot was not too far off.

He needed special sticks which were much more dense towards the top of the shaft because he literally bent those old wooden sticks on a wrister like Brett Hull whipping a composite on a slapshot.

Howe (as well as Bobby Hull) was "country strong" ( a term used once used in Sports Illustrated to describe Bo Jackson) -- a farm boy type that was just naturally stronger than 99.99% of the population. He never lifted weights at all, but was cut from an oak tree and strong as an ox. During the off-season he was a mover - have you seen how strong some of those guys are??

Besides, composite sticks help average shots get harder - not necessarily the top-end of the spectrum.

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06-21-2010, 02:33 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I just listed it in context - whether you believe Hull's slapshot was that hard or not (I believe other sources have it ever higher), Howe's wrist shot was not too far off.

He needed special sticks which were much more dense towards the top of the shaft because he literally bent those old wooden sticks on a wrister like Brett Hull whipping a composite on a slapshot.

Besides, composite sticks help average shots get harder - not necessarily the top-end of the spectrum.
So back in the 60's what special sticks did he use?
Since I played hockey starting in the 60's I can only recall wooden Sherwoods!
How did the stick manufacturers give Hull a wooden stick that was denser at the top of the shaft?

Where did you read that Howe's wrist shot wasn't too far off Hulls slapshot?
btw: Hulls wristshot was probably better than Howes and I doubt it reached 80 mph.

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06-21-2010, 02:45 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Cornell View Post
So back in the 60's what special sticks did he use?
Since I played hockey starting in the 60's I can only recall wooden Sherwoods!
How did the stick manufacturers give Hull a wooden stick that was denser at the top of the shaft?

Where did you read that Howe's wrist shot wasn't too far off Hulls slapshot?
btw: Hulls wristshot was probably better than Howes and I doubt it reached 80 mph.


Looking for the SI article I remember about his stick.

EDIT: Found it -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...87/2/index.htm

Quote:
Howe, the only truly ambidextrous NHL player, can score with equal facility from either side of his body. He uses a 21-ounce stick of Canadian ash with only a slight bend in the blade and an extremely stiff handle. "Give Gordie a stick with an ordinary handle," says Trainer Lefty Wilson, "and he'll break it like a toothpick. He is so strong that when he shoots, that handle bends like a banana."


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06-21-2010, 02:49 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
Please tell me you don't actually believe that... that's actually impossible with sticks then, especially the wrist shot. I'm willing to bet Howe never shot a wrist shot above 70 miles let alone 114. I've seen enough games of him to know that. Even with the new composite sticks which are far improved for quickness of shot release and shot velocity over modern day wooden sticks, no one can even approach those numbers now with either a wrist or slapshot!
Actually; while the composite sticks of today greatly improve release, and consequently, the quickness, of wrist and snap shots.

The slap shot is affected very little. In fact many studies have shown that the wooden sticks produce faster slap shots. And Hull's ridiculously heavy stick could have easily produced those kind of MPH's.

No less a source than Time Magazine reported this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friday, Mar. 01, 1968
...by far the fastest shot: his "slap shot," delivered from a full windup, has been clocked at 118.3 m.p.h., nearly 35 m.p.h. above the league average, and his "wrist shot," fired with just a flick of the stick, zings along at 100.7 m.p.h.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz0rVz3d4tq

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Old
06-21-2010, 02:55 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Cornell View Post
So back in the 60's what special sticks did he use?
Since I played hockey starting in the 60's I can only recall wooden Sherwoods!

Were you in the NHL? Lol.

.....Hull's sticks ere made for him by Northland.

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Old
06-21-2010, 03:11 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post


Looking for the SI article I remember about his stick.

EDIT: Found it -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...87/2/index.htm
I donīt believe these numbers at all. unless they measured it differently than they do today.

that basically all players had slap shots that would win the all star competition every year. donīt see it.

that 4 players had wristshots that would win hardest slap shot competition every year. absolutely donīt see it.

that Gordie Howe had a wrist shot that beat todays slap shot record by 10 miles/hour. I donīt see that whatsoever.

If that was true you could put him on the ice today and he should be able to snipe wrisers from the blueline every game. He would have killed the goalies that were in the league.

I know you like Howe and want to defend him, and iīm sure he had a killer shot. but do you seriously believe that article?

I mean you often hear stories about Hulls slapper to be extreme. if Howes wrister was almost as hard, donīt you think it would be extremely legendary.

I guess that different measuring would be an explanation. perhaps they let the players skate full speed ahead with the puck or something. I still doubt they would reach those speeds though.

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06-21-2010, 03:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
I donīt believe these numbers at all. unless they measured it differently than they do today.

that basically all players had slap shots that would win the all star competition every year. donīt see it.

that 4 players had wristshots that would win hardest slap shot competition every year. absolutely donīt see it.

that Gordie Howe had a wrist shot that beat todays slap shot record by 10 miles/hour. I donīt see that whatsoever.

If that was true you could put him on the ice today and he should be able to snipe wrisers from the blueline every game. He would have killed the goalies that were in the league.

I know you like Howe and want to defend him, and iīm sure he had a killer shot. but do you seriously believe that article? Whether you think it was accurate at all or not, Hull and Howe were clearly freaks of nature.

I mean you often hear stories about Hulls slapper to be extreme. if Howes wrister was almost as hard, donīt you think it would be extremely legendary.

I guess that different measuring would be an explanation. perhaps they let the players skate full speed ahead with the puck or something. I still doubt they would reach those speeds though.
One thing that lends credibility IMO, is that the rest of the league was averaging 70-80 mph shots (every player in the NHL was tested). Whether you think those readings are accurate or not, I think it is easy to conclude Howe and Hull were freaks of nature.

Also shows evidence to the contrary of Howe being "slow" - especially keeping in mind he was in his late 30s at the time of this testing. Also shows he was still getting huge amounts of ice time.


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Old
06-21-2010, 03:26 PM
  #187
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Okay, I see why we're disagreeing here. I don't think I explained my position properly.

I'm not arguing that Player A is better than Player B because he scored more points, or played in more seasons. If Player B in his prime was consistently better than Player A in his prime, then Player B was the better player, regardless of how many seasons either of them player.

However: for me the key measure of time is one season - because that's what it takes to win a Stanley Cup.

For that reason, what a player contributes over a complete season is key. To me, 90 points in 80 games is significantly more valuable than, say, 60 points in 40 games. A player who was dominant over a half season likely contributed less to his team than a player who was slightly less productive per game, but played a full season.

Ultimately that's why I seem to have a lower opinion of Lemieux than some - it sounds great that he scores 1.7 points per game, but if he misses 20-60 games per year (as he did every year between ages 24 and 28), I question if he brought more value to his team than Howe, who was likely a bit worse offensively but played a full schedule almost every year.
I think I understand you then. and I agree that Howe probably brought more "value" over a season even in his peak than Lemieux. itīs just that the ppg difference to me made me question if this higher value is enough to close the gap in pure "on-ice dominance" which I value highly when judging players. Iīm really not sure anymore. but in career value I think itīs hard to put Lemieux ahead based on only this.


Quote:
I understand - and I think it's relevant. That's why I think Howe is behind Gretzky and Orr in peak value.
then we agree. I would probably put Lemieux ahead as well in peak value (since I weigh ppg dominance higher here) but have Howe beat him out in the end on longevity.

Quote:
I think we'd both agree it's silly to get into an adjusted stats argument. But for whatever it's worth I have Howe at 168, 158, 151, 141 and 137 points in his best five seasons (using BM67's method).
agree about the sillieness. just did it because you asked.

I took those numbers from Hockey-reference.com and am not sure how they calculate them. do you have a link to BM67s numbers. they might change my opinion.

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06-21-2010, 03:34 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
One thing that lends credibility IMO, is that the rest of the league was averaging 70-80 mph shots (every player in the NHL was tested).
I agree that the slap shot speeds might be plausible (though I doubt it), but I donīt see any chance that the wrist shot speeds are correct by todays standards.

none.

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06-21-2010, 03:46 PM
  #189
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If I'm the proverbial GM at the alltime NHL draft with the 1st overall pick and every player is there on the board I'll pick Mr. Orr, nothing against Mr. Hockey Gordie Howe, the Great One Gretzky, the Magnificent Mr. Lemieux etc.,
.....No way do I pass over #4 to pick ANYBODY ELSE.


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