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Pens to go hard after Whitney

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Old
06-21-2010, 11:05 AM
  #126
angelgirl77
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
This isn't even comparable.

Gretzky had a notoriously bad back that dogged him late in his career and he wasn't exactly what you would of called a workout monster.

Whitney on the other hand keeps himself in prime condition.



Gordie Howe was putting up huge numbers in his mid 40s playing in the WHA, then at 52 put up around 45 pts playing in the NHL for the Whalers.

Each player needs to be judged separately; you can't group all of these guys into one pot because of their age.

All of the older players the Pens had problems with, had showed major signs of slowing down well before they became Penguins.

I doubt you or anyone weary of Whitney, has ever watched him play.

The most I have seen of Whitney is the Carolina games...and I never miss a game.

I understand that some players play well into the 40s and play well doing so.


ALL I am saying is that he is OLD. YOU or anyone else for that matter, cannot predicat when his age will catch up too him. Thats it, bottom line. His body may just say, "no more" and then he is a waste of money. You CAN'T tell me that you know for a fact that he will be good as gold, and I can't tell you that he won't. With the pens being so close to the cap, I would like to see them spend their money on a guy who isn't quite as long in the tooth. I realize there isn't crap out there in terms of forwards, and would prefer to see Shero sign a good Dman like Volchenkov, Martin, etc.

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06-21-2010, 11:16 AM
  #127
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Whitney scares me as a Carolina fan, but I don't think he would scare me as a Penguins fan. Whitney went totally into the tank in the 2nd half of last season in terms of effort as well as results. 2 goals and 7 assists for 9 points in his last 20 games..... all the while still getting about 20 minutes per night. Mostly as a result of having to do a lot of the heavy lifting alone.

Ray has always been a scorer and will likely score regardless of where he goes until all the scoring is out of him, but playing with a Malkin or Crosby could certainly put a few more years on him.

The thing about him is that a team is going to have to pay for him. I think he was somewhat insulted when Carolina attempted to offer him a lower price than he made last season because the talks ended abruptly enough to show that the two sides were so far away it was ridiculous. Estimates say that Carolina may have been looking to offer him at around the $2.5 mark compared to the $3.55 he made last season. I think he feels he can match, if not better, that number in another location. How much of that he's willing to back away from to play in Pittsburgh is another matter all together.

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06-21-2010, 11:19 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Not to pick on you, but too many people don't watch the players they "want" and it turns into posts like this.

Frolov, as I have touched on in other posts, will pull a Poni and disappear for weeks at a time. His own GM has said as much and eventhough they have plenty of cap room in LA, he doesn't want to sign him.

Think about why.
How many coaches have they had over the last few years? I think they expect him to be OV, or Kovy scoring 40, 50, or 60 goals, 80 to 90 points. They can't be happy with what he did bring, then....they bring in Smyth and takes his minutes, and they still expected him to be that guy instead of being alright with what he is. Its not like they overpaid him for his services. Ownership, management & coaching destroyed anything remotely possible to get him to even be what he was before he was belittled.


Frolov needs a change because, to try and save bridges already burned multiple times is just plain dumb, and LA knows it. Fresh start where ever it is should be better than staying there for more of the same.

LA. is worse off for him leaving than Frolov is for just leaving period.

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06-21-2010, 11:32 AM
  #129
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Boy oh boy! How did you learn all this?!
theinsideonpittsburghsports.com have to pay for it but im a sucker i guess and i caved

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06-21-2010, 11:32 AM
  #130
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by angelgirl77 View Post
The most I have seen of Whitney is the Carolina games...and I never miss a game.

I understand that some players play well into the 40s and play well doing so.


ALL I am saying is that he is OLD. YOU or anyone else for that matter, cannot predicat when his age will catch up too him. Thats it, bottom line. His body may just say, "no more" and then he is a waste of money. You CAN'T tell me that you know for a fact that he will be good as gold, and I can't tell you that he won't. With the pens being so close to the cap, I would like to see them spend their money on a guy who isn't quite as long in the tooth. I realize there isn't crap out there in terms of forwards, and would prefer to see Shero sign a good Dman like Volchenkov, Martin, etc.
There is no promise. Just like if you sign a Frolov to a 5m deal - there is no guarantee what you will get from him. However people want Frolov because of his age.

I'll keep saying it over and over - there is a reason DL is telling him to take a walk.

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06-21-2010, 11:34 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by odds View Post
How many coaches have they had over the last few years? I think they expect him to be OV, or Kovy scoring 40, 50, or 60 goals, 80 to 90 points. They can't be happy with what he did bring, then....they bring in Smyth and takes his minutes, and they still expected him to be that guy instead of being alright with what he is. Its not like they overpaid him for his services. Ownership, management & coaching destroyed anything remotely possible to get him to even be what he was before he was belittled.


Frolov needs a change because, to try and save bridges already burned multiple times is just plain dumb, and LA knows it. Fresh start where ever it is should be better than staying there for more of the same.

LA. is worse off for him leaving than Frolov is for just leaving period.
Frolov has always been inconsistent. I have watched him since he came into the league.

One game he looks like an all-star... the next he looks like Morozov.

Blaming his faults on mgmt. and the coaches is misguided.

King fans will tell you the same thing.

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06-21-2010, 11:36 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
There is no promise. Just like if you sign a Frolov to a 5m deal - there is no guarantee what you will get from him. However people want Frolov because of his age.

I'll keep saying it over and over - there is a reason DL is telling him to take a walk.
Well, DL thinks players from U of Michigan are in shambles because of their respected coach, so I'd take that last statement with a grain of salt.

Lombardi is anything but impressive as a GM, imo.

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06-21-2010, 11:42 AM
  #133
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well, DL thinks players from U of Michigan are in shambles because of their respected coach, so I'd take that last statement with a grain of salt.

Lombardi is anything but impressive as a GM, imo.
You don't have to take DL word for it - all you have to do is watch this guy play to know he isn't worth what he is asking.

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06-21-2010, 11:44 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You don't have to take DL word for it - all you have to do is watch this guy play to know he isn't worth what he is asking.
I do. Frolov used to be a secret fetish of mine, but I don't like where his career is headed...and he's a HUGE gamble at this point.

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06-21-2010, 12:37 PM
  #135
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Don't take this personally, but I don't think people realize Marleau made $6.3 million this past year. I highly doubt he's taking a pay cut based on the season he had unless it's on a long-term deal, and even still it won't be down to $5 million. Why not split up the $5 million amongst a couple nice wingers? You could also nab one decent winger and put the rest of the cash towards an upgrade over Eaton.
People said IF Marleau took a Hossa type contract could the Pens fit him in under the cap, so I did. Marleau will be 31 when the season starts so I'd give him this contract and see if he'd bite (agian I don't think it will happen but it's plausible):

10 yrs. 50m

7/7/7/7/7/7/5/1/1/1

Not a pay cut... just getting a lower cap number by adding more years.

It won't happen though and I have no problem with just getting two solid top 6 wingers for 4.5-5.5m.

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06-21-2010, 12:44 PM
  #136
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LA. has been messed up for years, and as inconsistent as Frolov has been, is there any other player out there being labeled this while providing top line production, while riding a carousel of coaches/changing systems, and being demoted while on a 2.9 salary?

Can we not say LA. as a whole has been inconsistent over the years?


It's not like there aren't other players who aren't inconsistent out there, he's just there whipping boy. Not all the LA. fans are happy about whats going on with him, and the fact they brought in Smyth.

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06-21-2010, 12:55 PM
  #137
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The fact that Frolov's points/effectiveness on a game has went down as LA has gotten better is a reason for concern, I think. Some players (see: Poni) benefit from being a player on a bad team. It helps them inflate their stats, which gives the perception that they are better than they really are. Once that player is on a good team though, their effectiveness seems to go down, which is weird because usually if you surround a good player with talent, the talent makes that player better. It's just an observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

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06-21-2010, 12:57 PM
  #138
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by odds View Post
LA. has been messed up for years, and as inconsistent as Frolov has been, is there any other player out there being labeled this while providing top line production, while riding a carousel of coaches/changing systems, and being demoted while on a 2.9 salary?

Can we not say LA. as a whole has been inconsistent over the years?


It's not like there aren't other players who aren't inconsistent out there, he's just there whipping boy. Not all the LA. fans are happy about whats going on with him, and the fact they brought in Smyth.
Again, that is just excuse making for Frolov. At some point you have to point to the direct source of the problem, and that is Frolov himself.

This isn't the case of a guy asking for 2-3m where it may be worth the risk. There is no way in hell Shero would be foolish enough to give Frolov 4.5-5m... the risk is way too high with him.

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06-21-2010, 01:13 PM
  #139
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The fact that Frolov's points/effectiveness on a game has went down as LA has gotten better is a reason for concern, I think. Some players (see: Poni) benefit from being a player on a bad team. It helps them inflate their stats, which gives the perception that they are better than they really are. Once that player is on a good team though, their effectiveness seems to go down, which is weird because usually if you surround a good player with talent, the talent makes that player better. It's just an observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
No, that's a very real thing and is acknowledged by NHL management.

Man, Poni is exhibit A but I guess you don't know until you try with these types.

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06-21-2010, 01:44 PM
  #140
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I have the same theory throughout my thoughts of how a team should be built. We had this discussion when talking about Kabanov. Some people call it safe, but I call it being smart.

I'd rather target a guy who is a lock for 45-50 points than targeting an inconsistent guy that could maybe get 80. Mitigate risk and know exactly what you're getting yourself into.

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06-21-2010, 02:20 PM
  #141
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theinsideonpittsburghsports.com have to pay for it but im a sucker i guess and i caved
That's correct. Major sucker.

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06-21-2010, 02:25 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Jags68 View Post
People said IF Marleau took a Hossa type contract could the Pens fit him in under the cap, so I did. Marleau will be 31 when the season starts so I'd give him this contract and see if he'd bite (agian I don't think it will happen but it's plausible):

10 yrs. 50m

7/7/7/7/7/7/5/1/1/1

Not a pay cut... just getting a lower cap number by adding more years.

It won't happen though and I have no problem with just getting two solid top 6 wingers for 4.5-5.5m.
you can't structure with any less than half a previous years salary so it would have to be..

7/7/7/7/7/5/5/2.5/1.25/1.25

5.0 cap hit....san jose may just offer that to him though, so he would really have to want to move east

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06-21-2010, 02:53 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
The fact that Frolov's points/effectiveness on a game has went down as LA has gotten better is a reason for concern, I think. Some players (see: Poni) benefit from being a player on a bad team. It helps them inflate their stats, which gives the perception that they are better than they really are. Once that player is on a good team though, their effectiveness seems to go down, which is weird because usually if you surround a good player with talent, the talent makes that player better. It's just an observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
But, in Frolov's case, his major reduction started the year he was put on the third line when he put up 32 & 27 for 59 points fallowed up with his last season being reduced even more with the addition of Smyth down to 51. It has to do with his line mates going from Kopitar & Brown to Handzus & Richards plus reduction in PP time.

So...he hasn't exactly been playing with their better talent for any major stretch of time the last couple years.

Poni was a top line winger in Toronto the whole time the last couple years, Frolov has been doing his from the third line while his production slipped.

Boy, I wish we had that kind of inconsistency in a winger who can get 60 to 70 points, then throw him down to the third line because you feel he is inconsistent.

Makes tons of sense, huh?

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06-21-2010, 03:04 PM
  #144
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you can't structure with any less than half a previous years salary so it would have to be..

7/7/7/7/7/5/5/2.5/1.25/1.25

5.0 cap hit....san jose may just offer that to him though, so he would really have to want to move east
Really?? is that new, cause Hossa's contract according to capgeek is:

7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/4/1/1/1/1

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06-21-2010, 03:15 PM
  #145
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Can people stop talking about Chicago having no leverage? I mean, it seems that way at first with how much cap space they need to clear, but at the end of the day they have assets that other teams want. Unless 29 teams collude to **** them over, it just isn't going to happen. The Pens aren't the only ones after Versteeg.

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06-21-2010, 03:26 PM
  #146
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Yeah, I'm really not too optimistic at all about the Penguins getting in on the Hawks salary cap madness sweepstakes. I think there is just going to be too much interest from too many other teams.

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06-21-2010, 03:38 PM
  #147
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invictus, you're dead on. Thank you. The Hawks may HAVE to get rid of some guys but other teams want them so if they're willing to give up Versteeg for a 2nd that's only where the bidding is going to start. Even if 3 teams are involved, the bidding will go up. One team will drop out because they don't want to give up their 1st rounder or a certain level of prospect, then the other two will continue bidding and that's if only 3 teams are involved.

Someone argued with me weeks ago about why I was crazy because I said signing a free agent is much more likely than a trade. It's because in a trade they could care less where the player goes they just want the best return. Free agency you have some advantage if you're a good team and/or if the player is someone you're targeting (i.e., you're willing to be one of the high bidders). In a trade for a useful player it's just you versus the rest of the (hockey) world.

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06-21-2010, 03:43 PM
  #148
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I agree wholeheartedly, invictus.

It's a bidding war, not a firesale, in Chicago's case.

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06-21-2010, 03:45 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
invictus, you're dead on. Thank you. The Hawks may HAVE to get rid of some guys but other teams want them so if they're willing to give up Versteeg for a 2nd that's only where the bidding is going to start. Even if 3 teams are involved, the bidding will go up. One team will drop out because they don't want to give up their 1st rounder or a certain level of prospect, then the other two will continue bidding and that's if only 3 teams are involved.

Someone argued with me weeks ago about why I was crazy because I said signing a free agent is much more likely than a trade. It's because in a trade they could care less where the player goes they just want the best return. Free agency you have some advantage if you're a good team and/or if the player is someone you're targeting (i.e., you're willing to be one of the high bidders). In a trade for a useful player it's just you versus the rest of the (hockey) world.
I agree with you too, UB.

I need to start talking about Kovalchuk, again. Too much agreement going on around here.

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06-21-2010, 03:46 PM
  #150
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Really?? is that new, cause Hossa's contract according to capgeek is:

7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/7.9/4/1/1/1/1
there has to be a 2 in there somewhere, like after 4 that they are missing

if thats not the case you could just make someones salary over 12 years like this

10/10/10/10/10/8/1/1/1/1/1/1

5.33 hit, which is essentially a 6 year 58 mil deal for a 5.33 hit, which would be unreal.

and i dunno who showed me it, but there are guys in the business of hockey forum that could explain it all to you, hell there might even be an old thread on it already.

i could be wrong because i don't know everything haha, but i was told this at some point on these boards.

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