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Can we really get fair return for Carter?

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Old
06-19-2010, 07:58 PM
  #26
turkinaa
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I agree that the return just isn't there and it is not needed to move Carter. Now other players (ie Hartnell) I can see moving to help with something like a goalie, but giving up Carter (even if he costs a good chunk of cap) just doesn't make sense. Carter is one of those players who can eat up minutes and play in any situation isn't worth moving for a goalie we can also try to sign on the market (given cap space).

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06-19-2010, 09:38 PM
  #27
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You don't trade players like Jeff Carter and get better. You trade a Jeff Carter when the team is in the toilet and he's on the wrong side of 30, there's contract issues, or he's being a cancer in the locker room. But if a team trading a Jeff Carter is attempting to make an actual hockey trade, they're going to get the short end every time.

I think a lot of fans are deluding themselves if they think the Flyers can lose Carter and not miss a beat. They need more players like him. The same goes for guys like Carle and Coburn.

The Flyers had an amazing draw this year in the playoffs. Nobody should forget that Washington and the Pens are still as good or better. And the thing both of those teams have is size with skill.

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06-19-2010, 09:56 PM
  #28
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I don't disagree with the op but a few points.

Burke overpaid the extra 1st, the only reason he included the 2011 is that Burke believed/feared Boston would match his offer sheet which would of been 1st + 2nd. That's up for debate if they would of matched or not, but I don't think personally they would.

So even though in the nhl, you always use comparable situations, you or anyone will be disappointed if they expect 2 1st + 2nd and that includes Ducks with Ryan.

As long as your gm shops him to most teams and starts a bidding war, you guys should get a sweet return. Who wouldn't want a big 40 goal scoring centre?

So yeah I do think you can easily get fair return for Carter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
I'm curious as to why Kessel is "more dynamic"
If I would have to say, explosive speed with top 6/7 (nhl wise) release.


Last edited by Sonny21: 06-19-2010 at 10:01 PM.
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06-19-2010, 10:04 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
If I would have to say, explosive speed with top 6/7 (nhl wise) release.
If you're describing Carter you forgot to his two-way play and his size.

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06-19-2010, 10:08 PM
  #30
Sonny21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If you're describing Carter you forgot to his two-way play and his size.
I was talking about Kessel, I know Carter is the better overall player because of two way play and his size.

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06-19-2010, 10:10 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
I was talking about Kessel, I know Carter is the better overall player because of two way play and his size.
Well then you forgot Carter's explosive speed with top 6/7 (nhl wise) release.

Anyway, I'm really questioning whether or not we should move Carter. I really think a vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Giroux line could be devastating.

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06-19-2010, 10:23 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well then you forgot Carter's explosive speed with top 6/7 (nhl wise) release.

Anyway, I'm really questioning whether or not we should move Carter. I really think a vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Giroux line could be devastating.

It's a good problem to have, but man you guys are stacked at centre.

Richards, Bierre, Giroux, Carter. All natural centres even if they can play on wing. Richards and Bierre are staying no matter, one is your captain the other has huge contract.

Your not going to trade Giroux who will be earning on elc and the way he shined in the playoffs.

So I do think Carter will get traded. Wait, is Claude Giroux natural centre or rw?

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Old
06-19-2010, 10:26 PM
  #33
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Nashville part deux

I suggested a day ago that the Flyers would trade for the rights to Hamhuis. I further suggested that Carter could be a trade target for Nashville.
How about Carter for Wilson, Pickard and Geoffreon?
Put Wilson on JVR's line. Have enough money to pay the Big 5 D Men for this coming season, deal Carle next summer (after the parade of course). Also enough money to get a goalie for 2.5 million.

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Old
06-19-2010, 10:30 PM
  #34
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The Flyers are not stacked at center. Giroux and Briere should be on the wing. Get me a 3rd line faceoff magician, and then the Flyers are stacked at center.
-
Jumping, the Flyers wanted Pickard over Sbisa. If they just made a trade with Nashville, and Pickard wasn't in it, I think the two teams are done with each other for the offseason as far as roster players go.

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Old
06-19-2010, 11:09 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
It's a good problem to have, but man you guys are stacked at centre.

Richards, Bierre, Giroux, Carter. All natural centres even if they can play on wing. Richards and Bierre are staying no matter, one is your captain the other has huge contract.

Your not going to trade Giroux who will be earning on elc and the way he shined in the playoffs.

So I do think Carter will get traded. Wait, is Claude Giroux natural centre or rw?
Trading Carter because Giroux switched from winger in Jr to C for parts of this year is really dumb.

Pitt and Wash are big teams. NJ is clearly intending to go big up the middle, adding Arnott to Zajac, Zubrus etc.

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06-20-2010, 12:00 AM
  #36
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The Debs got manhandled by the Flyers all year long. They had to do something, but Arnott isn't enough. A lot of teams have a lot of work to do, including the Flyers.

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Old
06-21-2010, 01:16 AM
  #37
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i'd like pekka rinne

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06-21-2010, 02:21 AM
  #38
decadentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah View Post
The Debs got manhandled by the Flyers all year long. They had to do something, but Arnott isn't enough. A lot of teams have a lot of work to do, including the Flyers.
So you're saying even we can't contain ourselves?

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Old
06-21-2010, 02:20 PM
  #39
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could we get backstrom for carter?!
the goalie


Last edited by tuckrr: 06-21-2010 at 02:44 PM.
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Old
06-21-2010, 02:46 PM
  #40
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Backstrom would be a great fit in our defense. However, his cap hit is too high for him to work here.

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06-21-2010, 02:48 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
could we get backstrom for carter?!
the goalie
Most likely yes. The Wild would take a big hit by trading him, but I think by the time they're ready to make a push he'll be on the down turn. He makes 6 million a year for a while. I don't think the Flyers want that kind of goalie.

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Old
06-21-2010, 03:01 PM
  #42
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Can someone post the return you get for a RFA? I can't seem to find the exact figures. If next year someone throws 6.5 million at Carter for 6 years and the Flyers don't match, what will they get in return?

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06-21-2010, 03:33 PM
  #43
tuckrr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Most likely yes. The Wild would take a big hit by trading him, but I think by the time they're ready to make a push he'll be on the down turn. He makes 6 million a year for a while. I don't think the Flyers want that kind of goalie.
wouldnt carter offset our costs pretty much? (if we could move hartnell also)

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Old
06-21-2010, 04:02 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
wouldnt carter offset our costs pretty much? (if we could move hartnell also)
Well, if we're talking just salary wise, then yes. It is close. I personally wouldn't do Backstrom for Carter straight up, but I don't think it would be the worst trade ever either.

The problem, IMO, is that as presently constructed, this team would get very similar performance out of an average and very good starter. When the defense is very good, the very good goalie never gets a chance to make the really difficult saves that make up the difference between him and the average guy. There is just a threshold you can't go below (this threshold is well north of Michael Leighton), because even the best defense is going to allow some decent shots.

As a team's defense gets worse, the value of a good goalie gets bigger. Our defense should be more than fine with a Chris Mason/Dan Ellis/Marty Turco type. We can afford all those guys with out losing Carter this year. Then when the time comes to give guys raises or renew contracts next year, we can look at who to move.

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06-21-2010, 04:04 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Can someone post the return you get for a RFA? I can't seem to find the exact figures. If next year someone throws 6.5 million at Carter for 6 years and the Flyers don't match, what will they get in return?
I think I read someone say it was two 1's, a 2nd and a 3rd.

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06-21-2010, 04:09 PM
  #46
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Trading Carter now, coming off 2 broken feet, is the epitome of selling low. And considering he's been incredibly durable up until these 2 flukey injuries, trading him now coming off injury would be silly. In fact, I'd call trading Carter for anything other than a winger with comparable skills and production, or maybe an elite level goalie (elite, not aging like Vokoun...so basically not an option), that trade would likely be the worst move Homer's ever made. It would make the Randy Jones contract saga look like sheer genius. If you're the Flyers, with a limited window of contention, you don't make moves like this.

It's just stupid.

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Old
06-21-2010, 05:14 PM
  #47
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carter for ryan

carter for suter

carter for vokoun

all things i would do straight up, that i think equals carters value, and is pretty fair for both teams

anything else you have to get 2 or 3 lesser players, which isnt great, bc as they say; "the team that gets the best player wins the trade".....but if we get a solid goalie and a serviceable winger or dman, i say do it bc i have never liked carter (ps hes overrated by flyer fans, so some of the deals we think we can get arent resonable...the carter for suter is a stretch, we may have to throw in carle/cobie and get a cheap winger back from them or something, bc i dont think they are looking to trade suter, but i can dream haha)

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Old
06-21-2010, 05:18 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Trading Carter because Giroux switched from winger in Jr to C for parts of this year is really dumb.

Pitt and Wash are big teams. NJ is clearly intending to go big up the middle, adding Arnott to Zajac, Zubrus etc.
Arnott is getting old though. The past couple of seasons, he's had to deal with some injuries, the production is beginning to dry up and the skill set is diminishing. This isn't the same 26 year old who helped Jersey win a Stanley Cup. This is a 36 year old who has digressed the past couple of seasons in Nashville. We're witnessing someone who is on the wrong side of 30 and that the contributions he provides will dry up. Remember, everyone lauded the signing of Brian Rolston last year and he stunk up the joint. Not worried about Jersey at all and the whole misconception that size down the middle means you're tougher to play against.

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06-21-2010, 05:25 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah View Post
The Flyers are not stacked at center. Giroux and Briere should be on the wing. Get me a 3rd line faceoff magician, and then the Flyers are stacked at center.
They seem to produce best in the center spot. And no, Briere shouldn't be on the wing. 53 points in 72 games does not constitute being moved to the wing. He's most productive down the middle and at a cap hit of 6.5 million per year, you want to maximize the productivity. Yes, he's defensively weak, but the Flyers knew that when they signed him to that contract. That's why Briere needs to be on a line with wingers who are defensively responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blah View Post
Jumping, the Flyers wanted Pickard over Sbisa. If they just made a trade with Nashville, and Pickard wasn't in it, I think the two teams are done with each other for the offseason as far as roster players go.
Agreed. The Hamhuis deal could have been expanded to include Pickard and others. It wasn't, so it's clear that Pickard is not moving and Holmgren is looking in another direction.

As for the whole "can we get fair return for Carter", the answer is yes. Fact is, he's a 25 year old with one year remaining on his contract. He's had a 40 goal season and would have had another 40 goal season if not for the broken foot. He also hasn't asked for a trade, which makes it even easier to trade him and ask for a max return. Fact is, if no one gives a max return, Carter remains and there's no problem.

I do find it interesting that Bob MacKenzie said that there's little chance of Carter moving and that it's another forward in Philadelphia that will more than likely be going instead. So, chances are it's one of Hartnell, Gagne, JVR or Briere that gets moved.....

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Old
06-21-2010, 05:43 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25 Pronger D PHI View Post
carter for ryan

carter for suter

carter for vokoun

all things i would do straight up, that i think equals carters value, and is pretty fair for both teams

anything else you have to get 2 or 3 lesser players, which isnt great, bc as they say; "the team that gets the best player wins the trade".....but if we get a solid goalie and a serviceable winger or dman, i say do it bc i have never liked carter (ps hes overrated by flyer fans, so some of the deals we think we can get arent resonable...the carter for suter is a stretch, we may have to throw in carle/cobie and get a cheap winger back from them or something, bc i dont think they are looking to trade suter, but i can dream haha)
Ryan- Fair value. A deal I would do, we need a big time winger more than Center.
Suter- Fair value but not a position of need so I wouldnt pull the trigger.
Vokoun- Terrible. An aging goalie for a 25 year old 2 way scoring center. No thanks.

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