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Old
06-21-2010, 08:08 PM
  #76
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I can add that Thomas will not be a Flyer.

So I've heard that Quick,Bernier and Thomas will not be a Flyer.

Take it for what its worth.

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06-21-2010, 08:08 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The goalie market is flooded with cheaper options that do not carry substantial (35+ contract) risk like Thomas does.
Oh sure, there's a ton of penny-market options, but are any of those going have much more than a lightning-striking-a-lottery-winner chance to be much better than Leighton? Are any of them concievable "over the top" pieces at all? You go after those penny-market types, or Turco for that matter, you're just making a move to make a move, you haven't actually improved anything. You might just as well stick with Leighton.

The other thing those factory-second discount bin goalies don't have besides 35+ contracts with $5M cap hits is TT's track record proving he was worth that much. You get what you pay for.

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06-21-2010, 08:10 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Take Ryder off our hands for one year to make the cap work until Sturm, Chara and Bergeron expire and/or sign for less money, and you have a deal.
Ryder ($4.00m) + Thomas ($5.00m) = $9.00m

for

Briere ($6.50m) = $6.50m

DIFFERENCE: $2.50m

It doesn't work. We can't come up with $2.50m, even if it's for one year. Not a chance. Maybe someone like Hunwick. Not a chance on Ryder's salary.

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06-21-2010, 08:10 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Take Ryder off our hands for one year to make the cap work until Sturm, Chara and Bergeron expire and/or sign for less money, and you have a deal.
Pretty sure we can't take on 9 million for 6.5

I'd rather trade Briere back to Buffalo for Enroth if we are trading Briere...I'm just terrified of what kind of a player Thomas will be in 3 years when he'll be 38 going on 39

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06-21-2010, 08:11 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
I'm just terrified of what kind of a player Thomas will be in 3 years when he'll be 38 going on 39
I'm scared he will retire.

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06-21-2010, 08:12 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
I'm just terrified of what kind of a player Thomas will be in 3 years when he'll be 38 going on 39
IIRC, TT's contract is heavily frontloaded. A buyout of his last year, if I understand the buyout rules right, will be fairly trivial.

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06-21-2010, 08:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm scared he will retire.
Haha yea that too...even worse. 5 million in cap space spent on a nobody. People were freaking out when we had 1/2 of Jones' salary on the cap...what would it be like in here if it was 5 million!

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06-21-2010, 08:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Haha yea that too...even worse. 5 million in cap space spent on a nobody. People were freaking out when we had 1/2 of Jones' salary on the cap...what would it be like in here if it was 5 million!
I think Homer learned never to do that for a player that was not worth it (Pronger).

I have a gut feeling Homer is going to play his goalie situation safely and smart.

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06-21-2010, 08:14 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
IIRC, TT's contract is heavily frontloaded. A buyout of his last year, if I understand the buyout rules right, will be fairly trivial.
It is 6, 5, 3...and there would still be a good amount of dead cap space, not something the Flyers need when they love to spend to the cap

And I'm not entirely sure about the 35+ rules, but are you even allowed to buy them out? Pretty sure you aren't

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06-21-2010, 08:19 PM
  #85
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Well, he's coming off of surgery right?

Briere + Boucher for Thomas + Wheeler.

Then we let the training staff completely ruin Thomas. He would become an exception to the 35+ rule. We pay him, but he remains on LTIR for the rest of his career:


Gagne - Richards - Maroon
Hartnell - Carter - Leino
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Wheeler
Powe - Betts - Laperriere
Carcillo

Pronger - Coburn
Timonen - Hamhuis
Carle - Bartulis
Lehtivuori

Biron
Leighton

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Old
06-21-2010, 08:45 PM
  #86
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The fact is that Thomas is worth his money.
That sure reads like an opinion to me.

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Old
06-21-2010, 09:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Oh sure, there's a ton of penny-market options, but are any of those going have much more than a lightning-striking-a-lottery-winner chance to be much better than Leighton? Are any of them concievable "over the top" pieces at all? You go after those penny-market types, or Turco for that matter, you're just making a move to make a move, you haven't actually improved anything. You might just as well stick with Leighton.

The other thing those factory-second discount bin goalies don't have besides 35+ contracts with $5M cap hits is TT's track record proving he was worth that much. You get what you pay for.
There are a few options on the open market that will be a notable improvement over Leighton. Turco, Ellis, and Mason jump right out. I'd be happy with Biron personally, but doubt that's going to be revisited.

Tim Thomas is a good goalie, but the Flyers already have a tight salary cap structure and it's going to be complicated in the coming years. The last thing they need to do is add another big contract number right now unless it's an absolute sure thing... thus, trading for Thomas is too much of a risk for the Flyers to reasonably go after.

I mean, right now we're talking about Gagne leaving after next season as a key part of our cap relief to sign Carter and Giroux, then you have JVR the next offseason to consider.

You can push aside the issue that is that contract all you want, but the moment the Bruins inked him to that deal they turned him into an albatross of sorts.

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06-21-2010, 09:37 PM
  #88
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What about something like Coburn/Carle for Schneider? Vancouver needs D help, not sure exactly what role they're looking for though. I believe Schneider is an RFA, but he can't realistically ask for a lot with almost zero NHL experience, and that doesn't plug up our hole right away, but I'd be okay going with a semi-tandem of him and Leighton.

If a trade won't happen, Ellis/Mason/Turco, etc.

Thomas is not an option unless Boston eats some of it. No one wants that contract.

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06-21-2010, 09:38 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
What about something like Coburn/Carle for Schneider? Vancouver needs D help, not sure exactly what role they're looking for though.
For the billionth time, Schneider is not worth a young, top 4 defenseman as he is right now.

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06-21-2010, 09:54 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
For the billionth time, Schneider is not worth a young, top 4 defenseman as he is right now.
And therefore not worth our attention. Okay. Because there's no way anything could be added, like say a draft pick or two, that would make shedding a few million off our cap usage a good idea for getting a young NHL-ready goaltender.

I know you're an expert, so I'm assuming you've seen Schneider play even more than I have. Wouldn't you agree that he would have already been given a shot in most places other than Vancouver? I wasn't implying a straight-up trade, but if we are resigned to moving one of those two guys (although it appears Homer is not), we should look to get great value back without taking large cap hits back as often as possible.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, what kind of return are you looking for from a possible Coburn/Carle deal? I get than an RFA goalie doesn't fetch much, just look at Halak and he's got a substantial edge in experience, but I do think that's an avenue we should look at since we've got complementary strengths/needs, that's all.

EDIT 2: Apparently he's signed to a one-way now, 900k for 2 years, my bad.


Last edited by might2mash: 06-21-2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old
06-21-2010, 10:10 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Take Ryder off our hands for one year to make the cap work until Sturm, Chara and Bergeron expire and/or sign for less money, and you have a deal.
We'll take Thomas, Ryder and the #2 over all for Gagne. Deal.

Then just waive Ryder = No cap problem, he'll look great as a Phantom.....

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06-21-2010, 10:45 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by petrobruin View Post
2005-06 Boston Bruins NHL 38 1 4 2187 101 3 1 2.77 12 13 10 1112 0.917 - - -
2006-07 Boston Bruins NHL 66 0 6 3619 189 7 3 3.13 30 29 4 1796 0.905 - - -
2007-08 Boston Bruins NHL 57 0 2 3342 136 3 3 2.44 28 19 6 1595 0.921 7 0 0
2008-09 Boston Bruins NHL 54 1 6 3259 114 4 5 2.10 36 11 7 1580 0.933 11 1 0
2009-10 Boston Bruins NHL 43 0 8 2442 104 2 5 2.56 17 18 8 1117 0.915 - -

See above Thomas Stats for last 5 years

2005-06 Dallas Stars NHL 68 2 28 3910 166 2 3 2.55 41 19 5 1458 0.898 5 0 2
2006-07 Dallas Stars NHL 67 4 18 3764 140 5 6 2.23 38 20 5 1424 0.910 7 0 4
2007-08 Dallas Stars NHL 62 3 16 3629 140 5 3 2.32 32 21 6 1403 0.909 18 2 4
2008-09 Dallas Stars NHL 74 5 18 4327 203 8 3 2.81 33 31 10 1790 0.898 - - -
2009-10 Dallas Stars NHL 53 4 10 3088 140 8 4 2.72 22 20 11 1465 0.913 - - -

See above Marty Turco Stats

Who might put you over the top?

Now i know that some here believe that Boston has a magical recipe that plays an incredible defensive system that makes Vezina winners but Marty Turco has more games played and considerably less shots against in some of those years


I know you guys need a Goalie and for a decade the cheep route has not helped and now you have a 2 year window or so.

IMHO Thomas is your best bet unless you can get Voukon .
Stats don't lie.
Timmy and Nabby are the two best options for the Flyers.
Timmy will be cheaper than Nabby.
If you want the cup, you need stellar goaltending.
It could have been the Fylers year this year with a #1 goalie

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Old
06-22-2010, 08:18 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by remer View Post
Stats don't lie.
Timmy and Nabby are the two best options for the Flyers.
Timmy will be cheaper than Nabby.
If you want the cup, you need stellar goaltending.
It could have been the Fylers year this year with a #1 goalie
Hawks just won with Niemi, and he was brutal in the finals as well.

That being said, you need good goaltending to win the Cup... and there is good goaltending available. I think Mason is probably the guy everyone should be most pleased with if the Flyers land an UFA goalie at this point, but both Ellis and Turco are decent option on short contracts as well.

Of course, that's assuming Nabby gets paid... I actually wager Nabby gets less than Thomas' contract in this current market. I'm just not sure there's the demand out there to get his contract up that high.

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06-22-2010, 08:41 AM
  #94
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I'll say it again:

Thomas is not healthy right now, he is having off season surgery

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06-22-2010, 09:47 AM
  #95
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I'll say it again:

Thomas is not healthy right now, he is having off season surgery
Is he going to be some kind of paraplegic as a result? Having off season surgery in professional sports goes with the territory. A lot of Flyers are having off season surgery and Carter has "two broken feet." So what. If Thomas had a degenerative hip condition like Emery then you can say you don't want to touch him with Chara's stick but that is not the case as I understand it. Brodeur in his long career has had numerous injuries some more serious than others and he's still doing pretty damn well playing basically 90% of the Devils games. The thing with Thomas is his contract ..has nothing to do with is abilities which he still possesses. It's not a ludicrous proposition to try and obtain Thomas IMO given he's a proven commodity. Isn't that what Flyers fans want..a proven commodity in net? Some may disagree that he's still capable and that is fine but most people see the cap hit and all other logic escapes. Trust me with the way Holmgren has put the team up against the wall the last couple of years with the cap I wouldn't exactly be thrilled with taking on Thomas' contract for the long term especially since they have to sign players like JVR and Giroux later on but again to me it's about making the most out of the "ticking" careers of Pronger and Timonen..two massive all star defensive anchors that will not be easily replaced in the draft especially when you draft in the middle or late rounds. To acquire players like the both of them you have to take cap hits and trade players, prospects etc anyway.

I don't think this trade is going to happen anyway but again it's not exactly a crazy idea that Meltzer put forward. From what I've been seeing is that Holmgren is going to try and keep the D stacked and sign Coburn and keep the middle stacked so Carter won't be going in the offseason. It seems somebody like Gagne and maybe even Hartnell may go to try and solidify the goaltending but that doesn't seem certain either. What scares me is not Tim Thomas for Gagne but Leighton and Boucher still remaining as the 1 and 2 goalies. I doubt this will happen since Holmgren hasn't even talked to Leighton's agent which says something but he may still have to go on the cheap in the goalie position if he can't get the right deal and we know how that cheap option has gone for the Flyers for too many years now...

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06-22-2010, 09:54 AM
  #96
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DrDoom,

With all due respect... trading for 36 y/o goalies coming off hip surgery strikes me as a big time risk, and not to be dismissed.

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06-22-2010, 10:21 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
DrDoom,

With all due respect... trading for 36 y/o goalies coming off hip surgery strikes me as a big time risk, and not to be dismissed.
Not dismissing it just saying that I don't think the proposal is totally off the wall as some are suggesting. I'm trying to strike a middle ground. What is not to be dismissed is going on the cheap or standing pat with Leighton and Boucher and HOPING they can not play like career backups or live up to their nicknames such as "suitcase." To me it just doesn't seem that any of the options in free agency are any less of a risk than Tim Thomas. Turco is a headcase, Biron is vanilla and one of the reasons he was ousted was b/c he was too apathetic, Vokoun looks to be staying in Florida otherwise he would be my pick if you are going to pay top money, Mason is suspect, Nitty is limited in how many games he can play and be effective, etc etc.

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06-22-2010, 10:31 AM
  #98
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Not dismissing it just saying that I don't think the proposal is totally off the wall as some are suggesting. I'm trying to strike a middle ground. What is not to be dismissed is going on the cheap or standing pat with Leighton and Boucher and HOPING they can not play like career backups or live up to their nicknames such as "suitcase." To me it just doesn't seem that any of the options in free agency are any less of a risk than Tim Thomas. Turco is a headcase, Biron is vanilla and one of the reasons he was ousted was b/c he was too apathetic, Vokoun looks to be staying in Florida otherwise he would be my pick if you are going to pay top money, Mason is suspect, Nitty is limited in how many games he can play and be effective, etc etc.
Well, Nitty isn't really an option.

I don't think it's a ridiculous suggestion with Thomas, but I don't want any part of that contract.

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06-22-2010, 10:34 AM
  #99
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Well, Nitty isn't really an option.

I don't think it's a ridiculous suggestion with Thomas, but I don't want any part of that contract.
No Nitty isn't an option...he was my straw man option to knock down..

I'm not sure I want the contract but if they made the trade I think I could live with it for a couple of years at least....especially if you can get a cup out of it. However, yeah he would be Rathje part Deux....

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06-22-2010, 10:40 AM
  #100
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No Nitty isn't an option...he was my straw man option to knock down..

I'm not sure I want the contract but if they made the trade I think I could live with it for a couple of years at least....especially if you can get a cup out of it. However, yeah he would be Rathje part Deux....
The reason I don't like the Gagne for Thomas deal is that Gagne is our cap relief contract right now going forward, and Thomas is just too risky, IMO. If it was a 30 y/o goalie it would be another matter.

If you're talking Briere for Thomas... that's another story.

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