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Can we really get fair return for Carter?

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Old
06-22-2010, 10:35 AM
  #76
agrudez*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post

I'm not making excuses for the guy because he came up short. However, as I also pointed out historically, guys like Tim Kerr, John LeClair, big useless number 25, Simon Gagne, etc...all came up short in their first four appearances in the Stanley Cup playoffs. It happens. And I don't remember anyone wanting to deal any of those guys after they came up short in the playoffs.
Did you just spend a whole post defending Carter's anemic first 4 postseason appearances and then try and call out KEITH ****ING PRIMEAU on his playoff appearances?

Were you born in 2005 after he DOMINATED the Lightning and basically was the only reason that series was even close? He was a man possessed and even though he is certainly never thought of as a swift skater he looked like he was twice as fast as anyone else on the ice all series long.

Seriously man, I usually respect what you say until you say Idiot Stick for the 10th time in your posts and I stop reading, but this has got to be one of the most ******** things I have ever read on these boards. **** you.


Back on topic, no we won't get fair value for Carter in a trade; however, the positives of dealing Carter come from more than just what we get back in return (obviously this does not mean we should accept anything less than a very nice return).

Positives for trading Carter (none of which individually would constitute trading a talent like Carter, but when everything is added together it creates a very strong case for such a move being made):

1) Salary cap space - alot is being made of Briere's contract, yet no one wants to believe that Carter WILL command 7M+ in his next contract if he pots 40 goals again this year. Good luck signing any more than 1 of Gagne, Giroux, JVR or a goalie with that contract on our books. Imo, you spend big money like that on defensemen like Timonen and Pronger or on an all around beast forward that controls the game on both sides of the puck like Richards, not a guy who skates fast and has a good wrist shot, but doesn't use his size effectively and doesn't generate cohesion with linemates due to his selfish play style..

2) Ice time for other forwards - we all agree that Roo, Leino and JVR deserve more ice time (with the first 2 deserving PP time as well). As it stands now, with Richards staying at forward, we have Richie, Hartnell, Briere, Carter, Gagne who will all be PP mainstays and will command alot of ice time, that is one open PP spot for 3 young, talented, developing players. A very big portion of a player's points come off the PP, btw.

3) Trading from a position of strength to strengthen a weakness - despite all of the differing opinions of what positions our current players should be in, we have 5 players who naturally play center and who play better at center: Richie, Carter, Briere, Roo, Betts. We also have 8 players who should play in a top 9 role: Richie, Carter, Briere, Gagne, Hartnell, Roo, JVR, Leino. Trading Carter for 3 of a top notch defensive 3rd line forward with size, a top notch, proven number 1 goalie, high draft picks or highly touted prospects would allow us to strengthen our NHL weaknesses as well as help replenish our prospect pool so that we can keep ELC contracts flowing in in the future (which is probably the most important thing that a GM in the salary cap NHL can do to sustain a winning team, btw) and opens up PP time and gives ice time with skilled players to our 3 young guns.

4) no more divorces - with Carter running around and sleeping with everyone on the team's wives it is causing down seasons like those Briere and Hartnell had this past season, and I am sure who ever rooms with Cote on road trips lost alot of sleep each night from him crying over losing one of the hottest women in Philadelphia. Once he leaves this things will become a problem of the past because all of our other young, attractive, rich stars like Richards enjoy the chase more than the destination.

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06-22-2010, 11:59 AM
  #77
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@agrudez

You only have around 800 posts at this point. Your statement is null and void when compared to BobbyClarkfan16 and his 5000+ posts.

And your comment about how no one wants to think about the money Carter will command if he has another 40 goal season is what I've been saying for months now. I don't want to hear any whining when Carter is making 7 million, scoring 40+ goals during the season and flaking out in the playoffs. God I hope I'm wrong though.

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06-22-2010, 12:19 PM
  #78
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Why does everything have to be a pissing contest? Now it's Carter vs. Primeau? Other than position they're not even similar players.

Here's why you don't move Jeff Carter (unless as I said upthread, you're getting a comparable player back...say Ryan since his name comes up daily around here).

One, he's a young scoring center with size, speed, and skill that will be damned hard to replace.

Two, he's responsible defensively so he can play against other quality C's without getting embarrassed (as opposed to Danny Briere).

Three, he kills penalties and his presence noticeably disrupts the other team's PP, because he can and will capitalize on any mistakes.

Four, even if you buy that he's some kind of playoff choker (personally I think it's still too early to judge), he still has to be checked/covered as the scorer he is. He draws the other club's good checkers and defensive pairings and takes some of that pressure off your other lines.

If you get the right deal and it makes sense then of course pretty much anybody is available...but trading Carter for some kind of package is almost a sure-fire failure. You don't trade a quarter for 2 nickels and a dime and call yourself the winner.

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06-22-2010, 06:26 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I like the guy, but Meltzer's analysis on Carter was laughable at best.

EVERYONE in the NHL has hot spurts and cold spurts. Breaking it down into little 4 or 5 game stretches is just nitpicky. I'd say a streaky player is someone like Lupul who will go without a goal for 10 games and then score 7 goals in 5 games. *****ing about how Carter scored 3 goals in 2 games and then 0 goals in the next 3 games is just stupid, there's variation for everybody.

I pointed out in the blog that if you do the same exercise for any player, you will find fluctuations during the season. It's also not unusual for elite level players to have a couple prolonged stretches, (4+ games) during a season where the points aren't coming.

That said, Carter has had too many of those prolonged down streaks during his career. This past season, Carter had 6-game (4 pointless), 4-game (0 Pts), 4-game (0pts), 8 game (6 pointless), 5-game (4-pointless), 8- game (5 pointless), and 6-game in the Final (4 pointless, 1 ENG) stretches.

Bottom line: The Flyers need greater consistency from Carter.

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06-22-2010, 06:36 PM
  #80
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Carter will go no where, even Homer said so.

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06-22-2010, 06:36 PM
  #81
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Seeing the deal involving Nathan Horton, I felt that was an overpayment by the Bruins, although I'm not one of Horton's biggest fans. However, we're talking about a first line center here, and you need to be strong down the middle to win. All 29 teams would line up for him.

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06-22-2010, 06:37 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan333 View Post
@agrudez

You only have around 800 posts at this point. Your statement is null and void when compared to BobbyClarkfan16 and his 5000+ posts.

And your comment about how no one wants to think about the money Carter will command if he has another 40 goal season is what I've been saying for months now. I don't want to hear any whining when Carter is making 7 million, scoring 40+ goals during the season and flaking out in the playoffs. God I hope I'm wrong though.
You've got 80. I think his opinion works just fine. Quality over quantity, young grasshopper.

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06-22-2010, 08:02 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
I pointed out in the blog that if you do the same exercise for any player, you will find fluctuations during the season. It's also not unusual for elite level players to have a couple prolonged stretches, (4+ games) during a season where the points aren't coming.

That said, Carter has had too many of those prolonged down streaks during his career. This past season, Carter had 6-game (4 pointless), 4-game (0 Pts), 4-game (0pts), 8 game (6 pointless), 5-game (4-pointless), 8- game (5 pointless), and 6-game in the Final (4 pointless, 1 ENG) stretches.

Bottom line: The Flyers need greater consistency from Carter.
1) As I've already pointed out a few times, using Carter's struggles in the Finals to justify criticizing/trading him simply does not make sense. Guy was on 2 broken feet and playing in a horrible situation (he's never going to be a wing).

2) I found 2 stretches in Carter's season where he went 4 games or more without a point. Both stretches were during that insane 17 game run in November-December when opposing goalies were putting up a .949 against us and the entire team couldn't buy a goal.

I think the bigger issue here is simply that Carter finished with 84 points in 08-09 and 62 in 09-10. Obviously you're going to have more inconsistent stretches when you see a 22 point drop.

Personally, I'm not hugely worried about him. He had 24 goals in 47 games under Lavi (40 goal pace) and one of his primary linemates (Hartnell) was absolutely terrible the entire year. I mean, Carter isn't a great passer, but he had a 16 game stretch this season where he had 1 (!) assist. I mean, that's practically a 4th line number.

Get Carter in a good situation next year and he'll get his 40-40 and we won't have to worry about these "inconsistent" stretches.

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06-22-2010, 08:16 PM
  #84
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Heh, agrudez always defense Carle til his face is blue. But he bashes our best offensive forward at even strength all the time.

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06-22-2010, 08:21 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
1) As I've already pointed out a few times, using Carter's struggles in the Finals to justify criticizing/trading him simply does not make sense. Guy was on 2 broken feet and playing in a horrible situation (he's never going to be a wing)..
One problem that the Flyers have is that they have 4 scoring centers and are weak at wing and Goalie. Trading carter might just put them in position to obtain both via trade/cap relief.

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06-22-2010, 08:22 PM
  #86
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hartnell may be better than clutterbuck, but not at 4.2 per year.

carter for backstrom puts us back 1mil

trading both players nets us around 2mil (add in 2mil cap increase) and we have 4mil extra to spare, along with a great goalie and clutterbuck at 1.3mil or whatever for a few more years!

(also we would want a pick or two from this deal)

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06-22-2010, 08:43 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuiffitelli View Post
One problem that the Flyers have is that they have 4 scoring centers and are weak at wing and Goalie. Trading carter might just put them in position to obtain both via trade/cap relief.
2 of those 'scoring centers' blow ass defensively, so that problem kind of solves itself. Move them to wing.

I remain convinced that Giroux would be just as good offensively at wing as he is at C.

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06-22-2010, 08:47 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Heh, agrudez always defense Carle til his face is blue. But he bashes our best offensive forward at even strength all the time.
He hasn't said a word about Richards.

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06-23-2010, 07:52 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
You've got 80. I think his opinion works just fine. Quality over quantity, young grasshopper.
Just to make sure, you know I was being sarcastic, right? LOL

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06-23-2010, 07:57 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
2 of those 'scoring centers' blow ass defensively, so that problem kind of solves itself. Move them to wing.

I remain convinced that Giroux would be just as good offensively at wing as he is at C.
Yeah, but Briere is too good at C to move him to wing. That's still 3 Centers that should be 1st line players.

I get the whole defensive problems this would cause... I really do. But why is it that no one wants to try the free agent market for an experienced center for the 3rd line?

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06-23-2010, 08:00 AM
  #91
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I just don't understand these threads. We were just 4 periods away from winning a big silver trophy with a guy that wouldn't rank at the top of goalie lists in some local street hockey leagues. But now I read Hartnell is overpaid, Carter is awful, Carle and/or Coburn are frauds, etc. WTH? How about we sign an NHL quality goalie, bring the rest of the crew back and see what we can do?

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06-23-2010, 08:30 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
How about we sign a quality NHL goalie, bring the rest of the crew back and see what we can do?
fixed it for ya, cuz we've been waiting years and years for that, i'm not getting me hopes up though

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06-23-2010, 08:39 AM
  #93
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Depends on what you mean by quality.

Having an elite (i.e. $5M+ cap hit) goalie is honestly a luxury that teams can't afford in the cap era unless they are just going to try to win games 2-1. More and more, we will see the teams with $5M goalies fizzle out in the postseason because they don't have the depth required to win.

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06-23-2010, 08:44 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I just don't understand these threads. We were just 4 periods away from winning a big silver trophy with a guy that wouldn't rank at the top of goalie lists in some local street hockey leagues. But now I read Hartnell is overpaid, Carter is awful, Carle and/or Coburn are frauds, etc. WTH? How about we sign an NHL quality goalie, bring the rest of the crew back and see what we can do?
It's not the simple though. 6 years ago I would certainly agree with you, however with the salary cap, we can't have a quality NHL goalie without moving contracts.

I don't believe anyone here is saying Carter is awful. Yes, the criticism (even from me) is overblown, however those that want to trade him for the most part have some valid points. On the flipside those that want to keep him also have valid points.

Hartnell showed in the playoffs what he is capable of. While I still do not believe he's worth $4.2 million, he's at least good to have when his head is in the game. Truth be told, he is technically overpaid, but after the postseason he had, most of us can live with it.

The only goalie that we could pick up for under 2 million is Marty Biron as he wants to be a starter and he now knows what his true value is (not to mention he's familiar with most of our team). With the raise Coburn will get, along with filling in the other holes, we will still not have enough space even with the Salary Cap increase.

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06-23-2010, 08:56 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Depends on what you mean by quality.

Having an elite (i.e. $5M+ cap hit) goalie is honestly a luxury that teams can't afford in the cap era unless they are just going to try to win games 2-1. More and more, we will see the teams with $5M goalies fizzle out in the postseason because they don't have the depth required to win.
I think that's a fair assessment. TBH, I think the next few years are going to be rather intriguing as far as Cap numbers and goalies play out. Since the CBA and lockout there was a massive influx of top end talent that were placed on very specific ELC's for set numbers of years. I think the single most important thing for teams looking to win cups is maximizing the return on those young players while they are still cheap, looking at the pens and blackhawks going down the road from here will be quite interesting to watch as now their young guns will finally get payed for the production they've been putting up.
I still think however that once teams come back down to earth salary wise with their younger players being paid the least on the team practically while carrying the load of the scoring, that depth will also take a shift in the way teams are constructed and strategized as well. I think this past year's playoffs was quite unique and we cannot expect teams like Pit and Was or even NJ to lay down the way they did this past year... that said I also think teams with star goalies such as NYR, and Buff are not built correctly because of cap numbers being spent on the tender, rather just poor management in signing players that simply haven't earned their pay check.

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06-23-2010, 09:09 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan333 View Post
Yeah, but Briere is too good at C to move him to wing. That's still 3 Centers that should be 1st line players.

I get the whole defensive problems this would cause... I really do. But why is it that no one wants to try the free agent market for an experienced center for the 3rd line?
Everybody wants to do that, everyone wanted to do that last year too, do you actually read these boards?

Richie
Carter
Malhotra
Betts

Fill in the rest. But Briere is way too bad defensively to play C for a whole season.

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06-23-2010, 09:18 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Everybody wants to do that, everyone wanted to do that last year too, do you actually read these boards?

Richie
Carter
Malhotra
Betts

Fill in the rest. But Briere is way too bad defensively to play C for a whole season.
So when you get to the postseason you plug him into center and destroy the season chemistry?

And even during the season, Briere's production got better when he played at center when Carter was out. Why is it that we can't have ONE line that doesn't have a defensive center on it? It's not like we have a mickey mouse defense that backs them up.

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06-23-2010, 09:46 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan333 View Post
So when you get to the postseason you plug him into center and destroy the season chemistry?

And even during the season, Briere's production got better when he played at center when Carter was out. Why is it that we can't have ONE line that doesn't have a defensive center on it? It's not like we have a mickey mouse defense that backs them up.
Not really true.

As Jester pointed out numerous times, Briere had more ES points this year than he did in 07-08 when he played C the entire year.

And we don't need to have a "defensive" center on every line, I certainly wouldn't call Carter a "defensive" center, but what we can't have is a center who's absolutely terrible defensively.

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06-23-2010, 10:00 AM
  #99
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OK, would you do Carter and Coburn for Ryan and Sbisa?

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06-23-2010, 10:06 AM
  #100
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OK, would you do Carter and Coburn for Ryan and Sbisa?
hell yes I'd even give them a pick to what's are first pick 3rd round it's theres

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