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Old
06-23-2010, 10:49 AM
  #126
94now
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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
LOL, so it's Tort's fault Lisin sucks? Give me a break dude.... If all our young players had a rough year, I would agree with you. But just 1 had a bad year. And it just so happens to be the same guy who has been suck fest for some time now.
Absolutely. A player only does as good as a coach. Players are only tools, in other words, in coach's hand.
All our forwards had a rough year, except Gaborik. Dubi was the best with 20 goals. Torts is not a bad coach. He is bad coach for this team. He dumps Lisin hoping Slats will give him a better player. IT WON'T HAPPEN

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06-23-2010, 11:10 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
that's a shallow analysis. we've gotten much younger, our drafting has been amazing, and we have the best of our young talent on the brink of playing in the garden. so yeah we are trending up.
LOL OK. Stating our team's regular season and playoff results for the last three years is 'shallow analysis' in your eyes, huh? Now I've heard everything. That is way too funny.

You forget one thing...YOU ARE YOUR RECORD. And Sather's record is terrible.

Nice try, though...

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06-23-2010, 11:10 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Absolutely. A player only does as good as a coach. Players are only tools, in other words, in coach's hand.
All our forwards had a rough year, except Gaborik. Dubi was the best with 20 goals. Torts is not a bad coach. He is bad coach for this team. He dumps Lisin hoping Slats will give him a better player. IT WON'T HAPPEN
I was not talking about the rest of the forwards, I was talking about the 1-3 year ones. I thought they all did well. Cally could have done better if not for injuries of course. Our veterans are the ones who struggled. Look, if you don't like Torts its cool. Every one has there opinion. But to say hes bad for da yoots is absurd. Especially when were talking about a guy that was never good to begin with.

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06-23-2010, 12:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
We're trending up?

Exciting youth, maybe, but any potential all stars in that bunch we can bank on like the other teams in our division?
What potential/upcoming all-stars do other teams have that they are banking on?

No player can be 100% counted on to become an all-star or game-changer. No matter how good they are in whatever league they play in, it's not the NHL and there's absolutely no guarantee that whatever they have going on for them there will translate to a league that the best from around the world come to play in.

From watching the WJC, I was pretty excited that we have Kreider, Stepan, & co. in our ranks. Just from the way they carried themselves in the games, one could only pray that they'll turn out to be the players we build around when they're ready to play in the big leagues. Now is there any guarantee that any of them are going to actually play in the NHL? Not really. Is there any guarantee that they will excel if they make it here? Not at all. But there sure as hell is a good shot for them.

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06-23-2010, 12:18 PM
  #130
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How can there be this much discussion over this? It's about as significant as the flatulence I had this morning....

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06-23-2010, 12:31 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
I'm disappointed, not with the Rangers, but with Lisin. He played much better the previous year in Phoenix. I don't know why he regressed last year. Oh well...
Keep in mind he played through a broken foot. That's a challenge for a player that relies on his skating as his main asset. It cost him his confidence and then the confidence of his coach.

(That's not meant to be an excuse for Lisin or a judgement on Torts. Its just a statement.)

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06-23-2010, 12:32 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Absolutely. A player only does as good as a coach. Players are only tools, in other words, in coach's hand.
All our forwards had a rough year, except Gaborik. Dubi was the best with 20 goals. Torts is not a bad coach. He is bad coach for this team. He dumps Lisin hoping Slats will give him a better player. IT WON'T HAPPEN
I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm curious, I'm sure you have played hockey competatively right? Did you ever feel this way, because I never did and still don't. A great player can change the course of a game, and a bad one can lose it for you, just as a great coach can lose games and a bad coach can win games, the players can help a lot if they have the skill and chemistry to carry the load. Players can break free from that limit.

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06-23-2010, 01:14 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by htk30 View Post
What potential/upcoming all-stars do other teams have that they are banking on?

No player can be 100% counted on to become an all-star or game-changer. No matter how good they are in whatever league they play in, it's not the NHL and there's absolutely no guarantee that whatever they have going on for them there will translate to a league that the best from around the world come to play in.

From watching the WJC, I was pretty excited that we have Kreider, Stepan, & co. in our ranks. Just from the way they carried themselves in the games, one could only pray that they'll turn out to be the players we build around when they're ready to play in the big leagues. Now is there any guarantee that any of them are going to actually play in the NHL? Not really. Is there any guarantee that they will excel if they make it here? Not at all. But there sure as hell is a good shot for them.
None of this is really counterpoint to Bluenote's remarks. In fact, you're kinda sort saying the same thing. How can we be trending up if there is no "guarantee that any of them are going to actually play in the NHL" or no "guarantee that they will excel if they make it here"? To indicate that we are indeed trending up implies having bodies in the system whom we can bank upon as bonafide/sure-fire/star/team leading/successful NHL players. We agree that we don't have that player currently in the system, correct? That these players, whom we should definitely be excited about, could just as easily not put it together? If that's the case, how can we be trending up with players who may or may not become NHLers?

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06-23-2010, 01:23 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Torts didn't like him... Whom, the hell, does he like? Callahan? Anisismov?
Seriously, name me young player he is good with.

Sad, all I can say... Torts cannot teach anyone anything. We are doomed.
Christensen, Anisimov, Callahan, MDZ, Dubinski, there are 5.

He didn't like Lisin for good reason, he sucks. He'd skate the puck to the same place every single time he had it and then lose it in the same way. A smart coach wouldn't like his play, there is nothing useful about his game.

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06-23-2010, 01:28 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Shadowtron View Post
None of this is really counterpoint to Bluenote's remarks. In fact, you're kinda sort saying the same thing. How can we be trending up if there is no "guarantee that any of them are going to actually play in the NHL" or no "guarantee that they will excel if they make it here"? To indicate that we are indeed trending up implies having bodies in the system whom we can bank upon as bonafide/sure-fire/star/team leading/successful NHL players. We agree that we don't have that player currently in the system, correct? That these players, whom we should definitely be excited about, could just as easily not put it together? If that's the case, how can we be trending up with players who may or may not become NHLers?
Great post.

The current crop of non-NHLers may someday come in and light up the league...and they may also never be as successful as we hope. Too soon to tell.

We can say we are 'trending up' when our regular and post-season records are actually trending up. Because, as it was posted, they are currently trending down.

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06-23-2010, 01:42 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I would discount Staal and Girardy first of. Them, as well as MDZ, are defensemen, Torts stays away from Ds since he is forward specialist. He can bench one here and there for bad penalty, but, I am sure, he voices his opinion only on forwards and uses Sullivan input on Ds. I am not sure about Anisimov, whatever Art is saying about his coach may politically motivated, plus Sather keeps eye on the Russian and wants Torts be careful with kid given his price/contribution ratio. Thus, I think Torts keeps it quiet, although Anisimov is anything but spectacular, no better than Dubi in his rookie year. Speaking of Dubi, his demotion to wing doesn't represent any Torts favor. That leaves Callahan as the only one that Torts is sympathetic to. But Callahan is a finished product, he was such before Torts arrival. That explains why Lisin is out. Enver needs coaching. Torts cannot teach, he can help a veteran, he cannot develop.
Just out of curiosity, do you actually know any of this to be true or are you assuming these things?

Anisimov saying good things about the coach doesn't count because its possibly politically motivated. Of course! This is a great position to take because you can use it to deflect any praise what so ever that any player may have for his coach and keep the "everyone hates torts" narrative alive. Maybe Anisimov just likes Torts. Prove to me that he doesn't.

Dubi to wing is a demotion? Putting him in a position that he plays better at and contributes more points in is a sign of dislike? Did Byfuglien get demoted to the wing from D or was that just a position change?

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06-23-2010, 01:49 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by MrAlmost View Post
I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm curious, I'm sure you have played hockey competatively right? Did you ever feel this way, because I never did and still don't. A great player can change the course of a game, and a bad one can lose it for you, just as a great coach can lose games and a bad coach can win games, the players can help a lot if they have the skill and chemistry to carry the load. Players can break free from that limit.
You're right, but it is not so in NHL. There is an unmatched kind of parity there due to highest level of hockey played . You can play your great skaters most minutes when it matters, but only sometimes (while in HS hockey - all the times). Therefore managing the icetime and matching players within properly drafted game plan often is a very much deciding factor. The only factor of greater influence than coach is the goaltender.

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06-23-2010, 03:25 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
LOL OK. Stating our team's regular season and playoff results for the last three years is 'shallow analysis' in your eyes, huh? Now I've heard everything. That is way too funny.

You forget one thing...YOU ARE YOUR RECORD. And Sather's record is terrible.

Nice try, though...

fake laughing when you're confronted with legitimate points comes across poorly.

Now, the definition of shallow is "penetrating only the easily or quickly perceived"(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shallow). A look at the standings each year and neglecting to look at the players, the youth, and how the team is being run in that time is the most easy and quick way to perceive how the team did. So a shallow analysis.

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06-23-2010, 03:33 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post

Now, the definition of shallow is "penetrating only the easily or quickly perceived"(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shallow). A look at the standings each year and neglecting to look at the players, the youth, and how the team is being run in that time is the most easy and quick way to perceive how the team did. So a shallow analysis.
You seriously want to get into a semantic discussion of the word 'shallow'? Please. You're better than that.

And you seriously want to keep saying looking at a team's record is not the best way to determine how a team fared? Just a bizarre argument, unless of course you're looking for excuses.

Go tell Gary Bettman you've decided the Rangers deserve an award because you think, regardless of their record, they're trending upward. Or Bill Parcells. Please forgive the NHL for awarding the Stanley Cup to the team that wins four playoff rounds, instead of the team whose fan tells you they are 'trending up'.

Please don't quote the dictionary term for 'trending' either, let's keep this at least somewhat related to what happens on the ice.


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06-23-2010, 03:46 PM
  #140
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the team went through a bit of a transition season last season. A lot of personnel changes were made, and there is always uncertainty with that. New coach, new system, new players, young players with no NHL exp...

There are alot of variables to get together with those circumstances. You can't just expect the team to just be "GREAT" all of a sudden at the start of a season and continue at that point into a dynasty.

You want youth integrated, young players etc. you have transition years like last one.

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06-23-2010, 04:01 PM
  #141
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the team went through a bit of a transition season last season. A lot of personnel changes were made, and there is always uncertainty with that. New coach, new system, new players, young players with no NHL exp...

There are alot of variables to get together with those circumstances. You can't just expect the team to just be "GREAT" all of a sudden at the start of a season and continue at that point into a dynasty.

You want youth integrated, young players etc. you have transition years like last one.
Well if this is meant for me, I do not disagree with anything you said. It was never a question of whether the team should be great immediately. The point is that you cannot state the team is 'trending up' just because they had a transition year.

When the team starts trending up, then you can say they are trending up.

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06-23-2010, 04:37 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
You seriously want to get into a semantic discussion of the word 'shallow'? Please. You're better than that.

And you seriously want to keep saying looking at a team's record is not the best way to determine how a team fared? Just a bizarre argument, unless of course you're looking for excuses.

Go tell Gary Bettman you've decided the Rangers deserve an award because you think, regardless of their record, they're trending upward. Or Bill Parcells. Please forgive the NHL for awarding the Stanley Cup to the team that wins four playoff rounds, instead of the team whose fan tells you they are 'trending up'.

Please don't quote the dictionary term for 'trending' either, let's keep this at least somewhat related to what happens on the ice.
To quote the dictionary definition the word trend means "to extend in a general direction : follow a general course " You're argument is based on the definition being that trend is what just happened and that alone. Here's the trend, commitment to youth, good drafting, good coaching, smart trades. I like that trend. I never said we deserve an award for starting this but I am encouraged that if the trend remains we'll earn quite a few awards soon.

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06-23-2010, 05:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
that's a shallow analysis. we've gotten much younger, our drafting has been amazing, and we have the best of our young talent on the brink of playing in the garden. so yeah we are trending up.
I will take two of whatever he's having bartender!

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06-23-2010, 10:52 PM
  #144
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None of this is really counterpoint to Bluenote's remarks. In fact, you're kinda sort saying the same thing. How can we be trending up if there is no "guarantee that any of them are going to actually play in the NHL" or no "guarantee that they will excel if they make it here"? To indicate that we are indeed trending up implies having bodies in the system whom we can bank upon as bonafide/sure-fire/star/team leading/successful NHL players. We agree that we don't have that player currently in the system, correct? That these players, whom we should definitely be excited about, could just as easily not put it together? If that's the case, how can we be trending up with players who may or may not become NHLers?
Unless I misunderstood it, I thought he was implying that other teams in our division have all these all-stars just waiting to make it to the NHL roster?

The team's future looks to - hopefully - be trending up with our up-and-comers. A team with players that have played like Stepan/Kreider/etc have is better than having a team with players that have played like Jessiman/Montoya have. Given how they've played and everything, it's probably undoubted they'll turn into effective NHLers, especially on the current Rangers roster. Can we 100% bank on them leading the NHL club and turning everything of the last 10-15 years around? I don't see how you can possibly ensure that even one of the up-and-comers will absolutely turn into a sure-fire, team leading star. I never said that these kids were terrible and that I was calling busts, I'm just saying there's next to no way to say what degree of impact they'll have.

Dubinsky was expected and pushed to be a 1st liner within the first two seasons of his NHL career, which hasn't really materialized to anything until this year with Gaby. Does this mean he was a bust? No, he's still a very effective player with a ton of upsides and growth to do. Can he turn into a real 1st liner on his own? It's very possible, but there's no way to bank on that happening; the best that can be done is hope it happens.

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06-23-2010, 11:05 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I will take two of whatever he's having bartender!
I wont say amazing but we have had good drafts lately.

The last two years have favored us. MDZ, Grachev, Stephan and Kreider.

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06-23-2010, 11:24 PM
  #146
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No great loss, we have a ton of bottom 6 forwards, we needed Lisin to step up & he did not.

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06-24-2010, 07:58 AM
  #147
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Probably because the whole thing just embodies, illustrates and highlights a failed decade for the Rangers. Brutal first round selections, inexplicable asset management, lateral moves, reclamation projects, skewed expectations, etc.

It's not just a trade that didn't pan out. It's a case study in how Glen Sather's NYR go about their business.
That is perfectly stated, MJ. It is not so much that Lisin did not work out. It is rather that hardly anything has worked out under Sather. From 1st round drafts to free agend signings. His uttelry mediocre tenure from Edmonton (once Gretzky & Messier were no longer there) carried over to the Rangers.

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06-24-2010, 08:01 AM
  #148
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we've gotten much younger, our drafting has been amazing, and we have the best of our young talent on the brink of playing in the garden. so yeah we are trending up.
Amazing if you consider having 10 years worth of drafts (forward-wise) consist of essentially nothing but plumbers. Look at the last 10 years and please explain how it is that we are trending upwards.

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06-24-2010, 08:06 AM
  #149
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Amazing if you consider having 10 years worth of drafts (forward-wise) consist of essentially nothing but plumbers. Look at the last 10 years and please explain how it is that we are trending upwards.
Lower the bar enough and amazing is pretty obtainable.

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06-24-2010, 08:11 AM
  #150
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To quote the dictionary definition the word trend means "to extend in a general direction : follow a general course " You're argument is based on the definition being that trend is what just happened and that alone.
As they say, if you don't have facts on your side, deflect your argument to semantics and definitions of words.

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Here's the trend, commitment to youth, good drafting, good coaching, smart trades. I like that trend.
Commitment to youth? Time will tell. Let's wait until our lineup is actually filled with youth before we say that, OK? You cannot say that right now.

Good drafting? Time will tell here too, but you cannot proclaim drafts as good until the players actually prove themselves in the NHL.

Good coaching? Which coach? Renney? Tortorella? Sather? Trottier?

Smart trades? Sather has made some good trades and some bad trades. A very mixed bag here. His asset management skills seem to have deteriorated significantly.

Quote:
I never said we deserve an award for starting this but I am encouraged that if the trend remains we'll earn quite a few awards soon.
Fine, you are more than welcome to be encouraged if that's how you feel. Just don't tell us they are trending up until they are actually trending up.

Soon? When do you feel we will be a top five team in the league? Next year? The year after? Five years? I don't mean squeaking into a playoff spot and hoping for the best, any team can do that.

When do you think we will consistently finish in the top five overall in the standings?

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