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06-24-2010, 08:19 AM
  #151
Synergy27
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Originally Posted by NYRangers4Life1994 View Post
I wont say amazing but we have had good drafts lately.

The last two years have favored us. MDZ, Grachev, Stephan and Kreider.
FWIW, there were a lot of people saying the same thing back in 2005.

"The last two years have favored us. Jessiman, Baranka, Korpikoski, Montoya!" Shiny new toys always look great.

Do I like MDZ, Grachev, Stepan and Kreider? Yes. Do I think they will be better than the 4 guys I mentioned above? Yes (hell, MDZ's rookie year probably assures that already). But, it is erroneous to use these still unknown quantities as the basis for an argument that the Rangers' drafting has improved. That statement can't be made until those players pan out.

I don't know how a Lisin conversation ended up here, by the way. I'm very disappointed with how he played here.

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06-24-2010, 08:36 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
I don't know how a Lisin conversation ended up here, by the way. I'm very disappointed with how he played here.
It ended up here because someone felt the need to defend Sather by saying that, despite the terrible asset management of Korpikoski/Lisin, etc., the team is 'trending up'. And he is leaning on draft picks to prove his argument.

I have been saying the same as you, drafts cannot be judged until you actually see the impact the players will have in the NHL. Too many names have come and gone (or not made it here in the first place) to make us decide any prospect is anything more than that, until he proves he can play or be a star in the NHL.

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06-24-2010, 08:47 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by htk30 View Post
Unless I misunderstood it, I thought he was implying that other teams in our division have all these all-stars just waiting to make it to the NHL roster?

The team's future looks to - hopefully - be trending up with our up-and-comers. A team with players that have played like Stepan/Kreider/etc have is better than having a team with players that have played like Jessiman/Montoya have. Given how they've played and everything, it's probably undoubted they'll turn into effective NHLers, especially on the current Rangers roster. Can we 100% bank on them leading the NHL club and turning everything of the last 10-15 years around? I don't see how you can possibly ensure that even one of the up-and-comers will absolutely turn into a sure-fire, team leading star. I never said that these kids were terrible and that I was calling busts, I'm just saying there's next to no way to say what degree of impact they'll have.

Dubinsky was expected and pushed to be a 1st liner within the first two seasons of his NHL career, which hasn't really materialized to anything until this year with Gaby. Does this mean he was a bust? No, he's still a very effective player with a ton of upsides and growth to do. Can he turn into a real 1st liner on his own? It's very possible, but there's no way to bank on that happening; the best that can be done is hope it happens.
I think in this case you might have been reading too literally into what Bluenote wrote. However, I don't want to put words in Blue's mouth because I'm the one who could've misunderstood, hehehe. I don't think he was saying, literally, that in order for us to be trending up or to be able to classify our drafting as "amazing" we must have All-Stars on the farm. What he was implying--at least as far as I'm capable of telling--was basically what you said in your original response to him. Which is, more or less, we don't know what we have because none of the yoots are truly bonafide NHL players. As you said so yourself, they could fail just as easily. There are definitely some exciting players down there, but until they skate one shift on NHL ice there's no telling what we have.

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06-24-2010, 08:51 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by NYRangers4Life1994 View Post
I wont say amazing but we have had good drafts lately.

The last two years have favored us. MDZ, Grachev, Stephan and Kreider.
But see, 3 of the 4 players you named have never played NHL hockey. How is a draft good when the players have yet to take an NHL shift? Let's say those three achieve only marginal succes. Say, one of them becomes 3rd liner...2 don't make it. This good (amazing according to some) draft suddenly becomes a bad draft?

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06-24-2010, 08:53 AM
  #155
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I think that the difference right now is that our prospect system is actually getting good press, which reinforces people's rose-colored glasses opinion.

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06-24-2010, 08:54 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I think that the difference right now is that our prospect system is actually getting good press, which reinforces people's rose-colored glasses opinion.
Oh absolutely.

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06-24-2010, 09:05 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I think that the difference right now is that our prospect system is actually getting good press, which reinforces people's rose-colored glasses opinion.
Do not disagree. But don't forget, the press and everyone else was telling us endlessly how Al Montoya was our Vezina trophy candidate of the future.

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06-24-2010, 09:09 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Do not disagree. But don't forget, the press and everyone else was telling us endlessly how Al Montoya was our Vezina trophy candidate of the future.
True enough... and maybe he was if we hadn't found a Vezina candidate in our system before Montoya was ready for the NHL. We'll never know...

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06-24-2010, 09:13 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
As they say, if you don't have facts on your side, deflect your argument to semantics and definitions of words.
No one says that...

You're trying to ignore a crucial oversight on your part, and that is you missed what is meant by "trending". You're not trending up when you're one of the best teams, you already are up which means you can't be trending up. You're trending up when your franchise was in bad shape (us pre-lockout) and now is in better shape (lots of youth, but some bad contracts with vets). Looking at the team and where it's going in a few years we will have no terrible, crippling contracts and a ton of impressive home-grown players (great shape).

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06-24-2010, 09:17 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
No one says that...

You're trying to ignore a crucial oversight on your part, and that is you missed what is meant by "trending". You're not trending up when you're one of the best teams, you already are up which means you can't be trending up. You're trending up when your franchise was in bad shape (us pre-lockout) and now is in better shape (lots of youth, but some bad contracts with vets). Looking at the team and where it's going in a few years we will have no terrible, crippling contracts and a ton of impressive home-grown players (great shape).
You're not seriously saying that with a straight face, are you? I mean, it's not like they replaced the guy who handed out those crippling contracts you talk about...all of which Sather handed out AFTER the lockout. The man just does not learn from his mistakes.

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06-24-2010, 10:50 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Lower the bar enough and amazing is pretty obtainable.
True enough. The truly amazing thing is how mediocrity has become widely accepted.

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06-24-2010, 01:57 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
True enough. The truly amazing thing is how mediocrity has become widely accepted.
Yeah, we should take it to the streets. I hate this "mediocrity is accepted" talk. We're fans of a hockey franchise, what are we supposed to do to not accept this mediocrity? That fire Sather rally didn't really shake the foundation of the NYR franchise and in my eyes that was even taking it a little far. Its a hockey team. If you're not on it or working for it, you have more or less 0 say in whether you "accept the mediocrity" or not outside of just following a different team. People on this forum talk about it as if they themselves somehow aren't accepting this level of mediocrity while others are. If you go to the games or pay money to the franchise for anything, you're supporting the mediocrity.

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06-24-2010, 02:20 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Yeah, we should take it to the streets. I hate this "mediocrity is accepted" talk. We're fans of a hockey franchise, what are we supposed to do to not accept this mediocrity? That fire Sather rally didn't really shake the foundation of the NYR franchise and in my eyes that was even taking it a little far. Its a hockey team. If you're not on it or working for it, you have more or less 0 say in whether you "accept the mediocrity" or not outside of just following a different team. People on this forum talk about it as if they themselves somehow aren't accepting this level of mediocrity while others are. If you go to the games or pay money to the franchise for anything, you're supporting the mediocrity.
It's not a question of what we can do about it (nothing), or whether we'll support it or not (we'll support the team no matter what). It's more about the mindset of this forum, and Ranger fans in general, where people tell you everything is fantastic because we almost made the playoffs. Or they try to convince you we are 'trending up' (still love that one) because we are committed to youth, even though July 1 is not even here yet, and we have no clue how crazy the Edmonton Genius is going to go this time around. His track record is not good.

One guy (the 'trending up' guy) has actually questioned my loyalty to the team because I am critical of Sather. I just choose to not accept the mediocrity, although I can do no more than post my beliefs on how this team can improve. And I will continue to do that.

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06-24-2010, 04:37 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
No one says that...

You're trying to ignore a crucial oversight on your part, and that is you missed what is meant by "trending". You're not trending up when you're one of the best teams, you already are up which means you can't be trending up. You're trending up when your franchise was in bad shape (us pre-lockout) and now is in better shape (lots of youth, but some bad contracts with vets). Looking at the team and where it's going in a few years we will have no terrible, crippling contracts and a ton of impressive home-grown players (great shape).
I haven't seen such delusional optimism since the Mayor in the movie Jaws.

"Martin, it's all psychological. You yell barracuda, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell shark, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July. "

2005-2006 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2006-2007 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2007-2008 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2008-2009 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2009-2010 - No Playoffs

How is that trending upwards? If anything we are regressing.

Don't worry though. We have a bunch of incredible prospects on the way to save the day like Derek Stepan, Christian Dube, Chris Kreider, The Ferraro Brothers, Stefan Cherneski, Pavel Brendl, Jamie Lundmark, and Grachev. Who are all CAN'T MISS NHL PROSPECTS!!!! Nothing is guaranteed with prospects. If any fanbase should know that it is us.

I could at least understand the optimism if Sather was no longer in charge. The same guy who gave out all those crippling contracts is still here! What makes anyone think he has learned from his many mistakes?

Fan: Hey Glenn, how are you able to appease an entire fanbase when the team has trended downward from 2nd round playoff team, 1st round playoff team to missing the playoffs over the course of three years? While in the process giving out some of the worst contracts in the post lockout NHL era?

Sather: "Easy, press release telling them that the Flyers made the finals and they only beat us out of the playoffs by 1 point. If that doesn't work, then you talk about how we are gonna build around our kids and develop internally."

Fan: Didn't you say the same thing coming out of the lockout?

Sather: Yeah, I say it every few years when things don't go my way. Fans don't remember anything past a year, it is great. Plus, everyone loves the term " develop internally and play the kids". It is exactly what they wanna hear.

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06-24-2010, 05:42 PM
  #165
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
2005-2006 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2006-2007 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2007-2008 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2008-2009 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2009-2010 - No Playoffs

How is that trending upwards? If anything we are regressing.

Don't worry though. We have a bunch of incredible prospects on the way to save the day like Derek Stepan, Christian Dube, Chris Kreider, The Ferraro Brothers, Stefan Cherneski, Pavel Brendl, Jamie Lundmark, and Grachev. Who are all CAN'T MISS NHL PROSPECTS!!!! Nothing is guaranteed with prospects. If any fanbase should know that it is us.
Sure if you want to take a shortsighted, and shallow approach then you might say we're regressing. I've already explained that standings alone isn't sufficient to evaluate a GM on, you need to look at where the franchise was and where it seems to be going. For us it came from crap and looks very healthy going forwards with this youth. Now lets take at just the basics but over a longer time period to see how it looks like we're doing to even someone who never watched a game.

1997-1998 - No Playoffs
1998-1999 - No Playoffs
1999-2000 - No Playoffs
2000-2001 - No Playoffs
2001-2002 - No Playoffs
2002-2003 - No Playoffs
2003-2004 - No Playoffs
2004-2005 - lockout
2005-2006 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2006-2007 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2007-2008 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2008-2009 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2009-2010 - No Playoffs

Looks a little different now. People will say this is settling for mediocrity. I don't look at it that way. I look at it like we were decimated for such a long time that we had to start from almost square one again after the lockout and we achieved a quick turnaround from jagr and some vets, but that was never the long term answer. Since that time we've been rebuilding the interior while leaving up the exterior. This past season we took down the exterior to reveal a slightly still raw interior. It might not be the prettiest thing to look at right now, but the architects (scouts) say it will go down as an impressive work. Don't demolish what we have today because you're angry at what we had, or didn't have, yesterday.

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06-24-2010, 06:39 PM
  #166
TomLaidlaw
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Sure if you want to take a shortsighted, and shallow approach then you might say we're regressing. I've already explained that standings alone isn't sufficient to evaluate a GM on, you need to look at where the franchise was and where it seems to be going. For us it came from crap and looks very healthy going forwards with this youth. Now lets take at just the basics but over a longer time period to see how it looks like we're doing to even someone who never watched a game.

1997-1998 - No Playoffs
1998-1999 - No Playoffs
1999-2000 - No Playoffs
2000-2001 - No Playoffs
2001-2002 - No Playoffs
2002-2003 - No Playoffs
2003-2004 - No Playoffs
2004-2005 - lockout
2005-2006 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2006-2007 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2007-2008 - 2nd Round Playoff Exit
2008-2009 - 1st Round Playoff Exit
2009-2010 - No Playoffs

Looks a little different now. People will say this is settling for mediocrity. I don't look at it that way. I look at it like we were decimated for such a long time that we had to start from almost square one again after the lockout and we achieved a quick turnaround from jagr and some vets, but that was never the long term answer. Since that time we've been rebuilding the interior while leaving up the exterior. This past season we took down the exterior to reveal a slightly still raw interior. It might not be the prettiest thing to look at right now, but the architects (scouts) say it will go down as an impressive work. Don't demolish what we have today because you're angry at what we had, or didn't have, yesterday.
I feel like I am debating whether or not water is wet. You said we were trending upwards. Looking at the performance of our NHL team says otherwise. That is a fact.

If we were having this debate after the 2006-2007 season you would be 100% correct. We went from a team that missed the playoffs to a team that made it to the first round, to a team that made it to the 2nd round. Over the course of a 3 year period. It was a consistent improvement from one year to the next. Since our loss to the Penguins in the 2nd round our team has been trending down. 2nd round...1st Round....No Playoffs. Unless you want to completely throw out the actual performance of the NY Rangers in this debate and focus on whether our prospects are trending upwards?

This post isn't directed only at you generic. What many of our fans are doing is creating this utopian futuristic NY Ranger team in their head by projecting out all of our hyped up prospects to reach their full potential. They are assuming Sather has learned from his mistakes. Then they are debating from that image in their head. They are debating from a stance that everything will work out. Stepan will be our first line play making center. Grachev and Kreider develop fully, Sather won't have another Redden signing etc etc.

I would love for all that to happen. I wish I could share your optimism. Unfortunately my brain won't allow me to because of reality. Reality is that we are a team who has trended downward the past three years. That is a fact. A team that has a couple of interesting prospects with potential, whether or not they realize that potential is still unknown. (Just take a look at the list above of former Ranger can't miss prospects who did nothing.) We are an organization who is lead by a man that handed out some of the worst UFA contracts in the post lockout era and he is still here. These are all facts.

Like I said before. If Glenn Sather wasn't running the show any longer then I would probably share some of your optimism. Unfortunately he is. A few press releases telling the fans what they wanna hear does nothing for me. Implying that we could have made the run the Flyers made because we were only one point behind them is an insult to the entire fanbases intelligence.

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06-24-2010, 10:28 PM
  #167
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165 posts on Enver Lisin.

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06-25-2010, 12:56 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
165 posts on Enver Lisin.
Stick around, this happens all the time. It's always the marginal players that get the most posts. ALWAYS.

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06-25-2010, 07:48 AM
  #169
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Stick around, this happens all the time. It's always the marginal players that get the most posts. ALWAYS.
Why change after all these years? Used to be Toms, then Purinton, then Hossa, and now......

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06-25-2010, 08:02 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
165 posts on Enver Lisin.
Actually the conversation in this thread evolved quite some time ago into a referendum on Glen Sather's asset management ability, because Enver Lisin is an example of Sather turning a first round draft pick (Korpikoski) into nothing.

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06-25-2010, 08:14 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Actually the conversation in this thread evolved quite some time ago into a referendum on Glen Sather's asset management ability, because Enver Lisin is an example of Sather turning a first round draft pick (Korpikoski) into nothing.
actually....Korpikoski did that on his own

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