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Marc Staal talks: "Not a wide gap, a chasm" (UPDATE - close to a deal?)

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06-27-2010, 01:28 PM
  #126
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Where do you guys get that this is about the players having big egos?
Probably from the report and Dubi and his agent were seeking a deal worth $4 mil per year.

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06-27-2010, 01:37 PM
  #127
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Probably from the report and Dubi and his agent were seeking a deal worth $4 mil per year.
Yeah. How many years were they looking for? The more years in the deal, the higher the per year average. That's the way it works for RFAs.

And again, it's the agents who determine the price, not the player. And those offers are based on other contracts given to similar players around the league.

We probably could have locked up Dubi for 4 years at 3 mil per, but Sather painted himself into a corner and didn't have the cap space to give him that kind of deal. We may end up paying for it on Dubi's next contract.

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06-27-2010, 01:42 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Yeah. How many years were they looking for? The more years in the deal, the higher the per year average. That's the way it works for RFAs.

And again, it's the agents who determine the price, not the player. And those offers are based on other contracts given to similar players around the league.

We probably could have locked up Dubi for 4 years at 3 mil per, but Sather painted himself into a corner and didn't have the cap space to give him that kind of deal. We may end up paying for it on Dubi's next contract.
That means he reached his potential and if thats the case then so be it.. As of right now he's making what he should be making.

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06-27-2010, 01:52 PM
  #129
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I would gladly sign him for 3.5 for two years or 3.75 for two years.

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06-27-2010, 01:55 PM
  #130
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I would gladly sign him for 3.5 for two years or 3.75 for two years.
per year? HELL NO, total dollar value over 2 years, hell yea.

id be in the 2-2.75 range with Staal...per year.

He has absolutely NO recourse whatsoever. Is he going to sit out a year and play in the KHL? Id eat my shoes if he did that.

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06-27-2010, 02:04 PM
  #131
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gimme 3 years 3 mill with staal taking him up to his last rfa year then pay the man what he's worth. likely 5-5.5 mill per at that time

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06-27-2010, 02:06 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
per year? HELL NO, total dollar value over 2 years, hell yea.

id be in the 2-2.75 range with Staal...per year.

He has absolutely NO recourse whatsoever. Is he going to sit out a year and play in the KHL? Id eat my shoes if he did that.


Isnt this the board that laughed when I said anything under $3 million for Staal?


Not sure when this was but I certainly remember the backlash.

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06-27-2010, 02:10 PM
  #133
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If they go 2 years, which I hope they do, I think $2.75m per year is entirely reasonable.

I really do not want to take him to UFA w/ a four year deal.

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06-27-2010, 02:24 PM
  #134
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Not getting this resolved shortly would be a mistake.

Sather needs to treat his star players like stars rather than threatening them by reminding them of the position they're in (reminding them of the CBA and making comments like "if he doesn't agree he can sit out and miss the season"). Staal is in another hemisphere from Brandon Dubinsky. Dubinsky is a 2nd/3rd line center. Staal is a top pairing defense man and one of the top shut down defense men in the Eastern Conference. He has not only been our best defense man since the lock out but one of our best players in general. If Staal is asking for $3 - $4 million give it to him.



Sather wouldn't have to threaten his young star talent to minimal contracts if he didn't make the mistake of signing Drury, Redden, and Rozi to ridiculous contracts.

The fans in NY are not the only ones who see Staal as a top pairing shut down defense man in the NHL. Other GM's have seen it too. And while Dubinsky didn't receive any offers I'd almost guarantee everyone on here that plenty of teams would put out an offer sheet on Staal. So, I don't think Sather really respects the situation he is in. If another team puts in an offer sheet the only way to keep him will be to match it. By the time that happens the Rangers will be forced to pay Staal the $4 million anyhow. In addition to that Staal would probably feel disgruntled that his team wasn't willing to give him the money he is worth and the fact that he had to go through all of this to get the money he deserves.

This is a major mistake by Sather and again I don't think Sather respects the situation he himself is in. Marc Staal isn't Dubinsky. After Lundqvist / Gaborik he is our best player and by a large margin.
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Where do you guys get that this is about the players having big egos? All of these players have agents who advise them on what their market value is, how much money they should be looking for. The agents are the ones saying the players should get X amount of dollars.

Staal looking for 3.5 to 4 mil on a 4 year deal is completely reasonable. That's the way these things work. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have the first fracking clue about how NHL contracts work, particularly for RFAs.

Sather is completely within his rights to try to sign Staal to a shorter term deal with a lower cap hit, but if he does, we will pay for it when that contract is up. We can give him 4 mil per year now on a 4 year deal, or we can give him 5 mil per year 2 years from now when he's arbitration eligible. By giving him more now, we can save cap space later. That's how the smart GMs do it with their core players. If Sather was smart, he would do the same.
I wish I could have said all of this better myself, but I couldn't. May as well highlight every sentence from both posts.

There are endless examples out there of just how valuable he is on whatever team he's played for.

For one example...,IDK how many OHL defensemen have won the equivalent to the NHL's Conn Smythe Trophy as MVP of the playoffs, but Staal did as a member of the losing team.

We'll certainly see what happens come July 1, but it's apparently obvious we need a G.M. who was as driven to make a name for himself as Sather was before starting his managerial tenure with Edmonton.

Bobby Orr is possibly the greatest player to ever play the game. He has been more of a low key guy in the past, but when he comes out (like he did a few years ago) and speaks so highly of Staal, Slats should know what to do here. IDC what Glen's portfolio looks like as a highly respected business man.

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06-27-2010, 02:29 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
per year? HELL NO, total dollar value over 2 years, hell yea.

id be in the 2-2.75 range with Staal...per year.

He has absolutely NO recourse whatsoever. Is he going to sit out a year and play in the KHL? Id eat my shoes if he did that.
Why Hell No? Players who are worse then him are getting 3.5M a season off a RFA status(Letang). Staal deserved to gets short changed because of what reason?

Even 3.5 for Letang was very fair most of the HF posters thought.

Dubinsky got 3.7M also, Staal deserves a million less for what reason? If anything he will be getting more and should be.

And saying he doesn't deserve money just for the fact he is a RFA isn't a valid response. Unless we are trying to piss Staal off so he gets the hell out of NY to join one of his brothers in 4 years, which is a very possible scenario.

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06-27-2010, 02:32 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Hahaha. SoS, only you could take this news and spin it as supporting your argument.

There is a "chasm". In other words, Staal's initial asking price is likely close to what you predicted. That's nice. But if Slats had ANY intention of paying anything close to that amount, he wouldn't be characterizing the negotiations with words like chasm. Last year, our rising star and anticipated 1st line center, Dubi, wound up getting a deal that averages $1.85MM over 2 years. And yet you think Staal is somehow going to get in the area of $5MM per year? My prediction of $3.5MM is more than realistic - in fact, it's probably conservative.
This news does supoort my argument..It's not spin, it was something I said the day before the Staal news even broke..Right?

I understand what the word chasm is. I understand what Sather was saying and I don't need you of all people to explain it to me.

You can't use the Dubi situation and compare it to Staal. LOOK AT THE RANGERS DEFENSE...now come back to the thread...ok....Now tell me...Does Staal have leverage here? Honestly, post the Rangers defense without Staal if he holds out?

Your prediction was just that...A prediction, to "walk" around here and act like you have figured out that water is wet because you can plug numbers into cap geek to get Kovy to fit under the cap doesnt' make it reality. (especially when you would be over the summer cap!)


Btw, do you really want to call Dubinsky a "rising star?" Are you saying that to try to help your argument because it makes it look cheap. Just a piece of advice...

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06-27-2010, 02:32 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Why Hell No? Players who are worse then him are getting 3.5M a season off a RFA status(Letang). Staal deserved to gets short changed because of what reason?

Even 3.5 for Letang was very fair most of the HF posters thought.

Dubinsky got 3.7M also, Staal deserves a million less for what reason? If anything he will be getting more and should be.
0 arbitration rights.

NONE.

if you dont have arbitration rights, you dont get paid like that. Period. Rangers would be fools to giv ehim that much money.

Sign him for 2 years at say 2.5 per, and when hes a RFA again we wont have Drury or Rozsival on the books, and you can giv ehim a 10 year 55 million dollar contract.

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06-27-2010, 02:34 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
This news does supoort my argument..It's not spin, it was something I said the day before the Staal news even broke..Right?

I understand what the word chasm is. I understand what Sather was saying and I don't need you of all people to explain it to me.

You can't use the Dubi situation and compare it to Staal. LOOK AT THE RANGERS DEFENSE...now come back to the thread...ok....Now tell me...Does Staal have leverage here? Honestly, post the Rangers defense without Staal if he holds out?

Your prediction was just that...A prediction, to "walk" around here and act like you have figured out that water is wet because you can plug numbers into cap geek to get Kovy to fit under the cap doesnt' make it reality. (especially when you would be over the summer cap!)


Btw, do you really want to call Dubinsky a "rising star?" Are you saying that to try to help your argument because it makes it look cheap. Just a piece of advice...
the opposite is true though as well. what recourse does Staal have aside from sitting out a full year or playing in the KHL. Do you think either is a good option for the kid? and if im not mistaken, if he sits out dont we retain his rights as if no time had passed, ie, he would still be a RFA with no arbitration rights?

He's got no bargaining power whatsoever, and only so many prime years to play with. he should take a fair deal...2.5ish per, and play with it for ~2 years, and then hes gonna get paid. big time.

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06-27-2010, 02:34 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
0 arbitration rights.

NONE.

if you dont have arbitration rights, you dont get paid like that. Period. Rangers would be fools to giv ehim that much money.

Sign him for 2 years at say 2.5 per, and when hes a RFA again we wont have Drury or Rozsival on the books, and you can giv ehim a 10 year 55 million dollar contract.
So we should tell him and all our RFAs they are getting the league minimum because they have no arbitration rights?

You have to be fair to the players, especially the ones you want around for the next decade and are a huge part of the team.

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06-27-2010, 02:37 PM
  #140
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So we should tell him and all our RFAs they are getting the league minimum because they have no arbitration rights?

You have to be fair to the players, especially the ones you want around for the next decade and are a huge part of the team.
2.5 million per year is not fair?

i forgot how much of a struggle it is to feed and clothe your family with such a pittance.

please. 2.5 mil per is more than fair.

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06-27-2010, 02:37 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
0 arbitration rights.

NONE.

if you dont have arbitration rights, you dont get paid like that. Period. Rangers would be fools to giv ehim that much money.

Sign him for 2 years at say 2.5 per, and when hes a RFA again we wont have Drury or Rozsival on the books, and you can giv ehim a 10 year 55 million dollar contract.
The Rangers defense without Staal is his leverage...What does it look like without him? Not every RFA situation is the same and when people start to realize this the better they will be. If the Rangers have Staal hold out until December they will have one of the worst defense corps in the league....right? I mean you guys who say "don't give him what he wants" are really saying "don't give him anything fair because then Kovy can't sign here!"

You sign Staal to a 6 or 7 year contract to buy out his arbitration years, and part of his UFA years. THAT should be the stragegy, not THIS.

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06-27-2010, 02:38 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Why Hell No? Players who are worse then him are getting 3.5M a season off a RFA status(Letang). Staal deserved to gets short changed because of what reason?

Even 3.5 for Letang was very fair most of the HF posters thought.

Dubinsky got 3.7M also, Staal deserves a million less for what reason? If anything he will be getting more and should be.

And saying he doesn't deserve money just for the fact he is a RFA isn't a valid response. Unless we are trying to piss Staal off so he gets the hell out of NY to join one of his brothers in 4 years, which is a very possible scenario.
Dubi got 3.7 over 2 years, Inferno said 2-2.75 per which would be more than Dubi.

2 years 2.5 per would be a good deal for both parties. Staal would get his big pay day in 2 years when he has 1 year left of RFA. something like 5-7 years at 4.5-6 mil per depending on what his offense does over the next 2 years.

OR

Give him 7-8 years now at 4-4.5 per.

The next couple years will dictate what turns out to be the better decision.

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06-27-2010, 02:43 PM
  #143
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the opposite is true though as well. what recourse does Staal have aside from sitting out a full year or playing in the KHL. Do you think either is a good option for the kid? and if im not mistaken, if he sits out dont we retain his rights as if no time had passed, ie, he would still be a RFA with no arbitration rights?

He's got no bargaining power whatsoever, and only so many prime years to play with. he should take a fair deal...2.5ish per, and play with it for ~2 years, and then hes gonna get paid. big time.
Staal can wait until December and sign then, crippling the Rangers defense the first 1/3rd of the season, AND setting himself up to leave as soon as he is a UFA by never signing a long term deal with the Rangers. He can also demand to be traded and turn things back on the Rangers. Honestly if it's November and Staal is demanding a trade and the Rangers defense is awful how long until Sather either trades him (for less then market value) or caves into Staal to ease the pressure off himself and his coach?


Staal doesnt' have to sit out the year to ruin the Rangers season. This myth that he has no leverage is just that...it's a myth...Because I'd love to see what defense you can come up without Staal?

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06-27-2010, 02:49 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
The Rangers defense without Staal is his leverage...What does it look like without him? Not every RFA situation is the same and when people start to realize this the better they will be. If the Rangers have Staal hold out until December they will have one of the worst defense corps in the league....right? I mean you guys who say "don't give him what he wants" are really saying "don't give him anything fair because then Kovy can't sign here!"

You sign Staal to a 6 or 7 year contract to buy out his arbitration years, and part of his UFA years. THAT should be the stragegy, not THIS.
Ding ding ding! Let's not alienate our franchise D-man with a grueling contract dispute. If you give him 4 on a long term deal, it'll average out with the little bit you could save by low balling him on this contract. The longer the better with this contract.

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06-27-2010, 02:52 PM
  #145
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4 years is not really a long term contract. It's a contract that eats all of his RFA years and none of his UFA year.

If you're afraid of losing Staal 4 years is the LAST contract you want to give him.

2 year deal is ideal. Lower cap hit gives you more room to play with until Drury and Rozsival are gone and takes you 2 years before he becomes a UFA, which is ideal if you want to lock him up truly long term.

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06-27-2010, 03:03 PM
  #146
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Probably from the report and Dubi and his agent were seeking a deal worth $4 mil per year.
Maybe Dubinsky does have a big ego. But even if Staal does, if the Rangers can wrap up a franchise player like him for the next 4 years, and at 3.5 mil per, Sather has got to get that done. Why play games with this kid? So he and Orr can dislike the franchise (and the way it's run) just a little bit more? Sather chases after useless Redden but plays hardball (like others mentioned) with a young superstar on the rise.

Again, it's not about leverage. It's more about a player deserving of a decent contract (and just as importantly, the fact that management realizes this and, wants to show the player how much they need him to stick around).

And people argue his day will come? It's already here. What else does he have to prove (especially when "compared to the defensemen who have earned their big pay day through the course of some success and Father Time")?

Fattalog, I'll say he's not only one of the best shutdown defensemen in the EC, but in the entire NHL.

I look around the league and still see the same old Ranger ####. Just about (if not all) other teams draft well and take care of their young kids.

I don't see any "ego" issues or young players having "swelled heads." The Rangers however, are the only team with the philosophy that "over the hill" players who have seen their better days are the ones deserving of big contracts because they've paid their dues while in Colorado/Buffalo or in Ottawa.

No one (I know of) is questioning the ego's of the players on young, up and coming teams like Colorado or Nashville.

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06-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #147
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This is a non-story. It's just a negotiating tactic. Sather is trying to lower the price. Staal has no leverage, he's not going to attract an offer sheet so this is just a question of:

1. When will he sign? No way he holds out into the season, but it could go through some of the early part of camp.

2. What kind of deal will it be? Cheap one year deal or a little more for a few more years.

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06-27-2010, 03:13 PM
  #148
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1) I've run the summer cap numbers as well. I've reposted it a couple of times already, so I'm not going to bother to do it again. Please search for it and check it out before just broadly asserting that "it doesn't work under the summer cap!" because it does.

2) Staal's situation is indeed analagous to Dubinsky's. One of the principles in the negotiations, the one who who happens to be the common factor in this negotiation and the one with Dubinksy, is on record stating so. If Sather views them that way, then they are that way, even if no one else in the world agrees with him.

3) Staal has no leverage. NONE. He can't be offersheeted because of his age. If he leaves to play elsewhere he is a "defected player" and we get another year of control for every year he stays out of the league, so he doesn't improve his bargaining position one whit. The only thing he can do is withhold his services and hope that the effect on the team's play brings pressure on Sather (you know, the same guy who is GM for life), which hurts him more than it hurts us, because he's only got so many prime earning years in his career - especially since we aren't exactly competing for the cup with our forwards next year anyway, so who cares what our defense looks like without him?

4) The argument has always been what Staal WOULD get. Many have said it's going to take $4.5-5.0MM or more to sign him. I said $3.5MM per year would get it done. We now have press reports that HIS starting point is only $3.5-4.0MM and that management considers that amount way too high. In other words, if management agreed with me, they'd likely be putting the finishing touches on a deal right now at about $3.5MM, rather than experiencing a chasm in expectations. Therefore, not only is it highly probable that Staal will be signing for less than the $5MM many have predicted, he's likely signing for less than the $3.5MM I suggested.

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06-27-2010, 03:14 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
4 years is not really a long term contract. It's a contract that eats all of his RFA years and none of his UFA year.

If you're afraid of losing Staal 4 years is the LAST contract you want to give him.

2 year deal is ideal. Lower cap hit gives you more room to play with until Drury and Rozsival are gone and takes you 2 years before he becomes a UFA, which is ideal if you want to lock him up truly long term.
It's long enough to put many fans minds at ease. Not to mention all garbage contracts should be gone by then.

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06-27-2010, 03:15 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
Maybe Dubinsky does have a big ego. But even if Staal does, if the Rangers can wrap up a franchise player like him for the next 4 years, and at 3.5 mil per, Sather has got to get that done. Why play games with this kid? So he and Orr can dislike the franchise (and the way it's run) just a little bit more? Sather chases after useless Redden but plays hardball (like others mentioned) with a young superstar on the rise.

Again, it's not about leverage. It's more about a player deserving of a decent contract (and just as importantly, the fact that management realizes this and, wants to show the player how much they need him to stick around).

And people argue his day will come? It's already here. What else does he have to prove (especially when "compared to the defensemen who have earned their big pay day through the course of some success and Father Time")?

Fattalog, I'll say he's not only one of the best shutdown defensemen in the EC, but in the entire NHL.

I look around the league and still see the same old Ranger ####. Just about (if not all) other teams draft well and take care of their young kids.

I don't see any "ego" issues or young players having "swelled heads." The Rangers however, are the only team with the philosophy that "over the hill" players who have seen their better days are the ones deserving of big contracts because they've paid their dues while in Colorado/Buffalo or in Ottawa.

No one (I know of) is questioning the ego's of the players on young, up and coming teams like Colorado or Nashville.
Because no one was going to pay Drury $7m per on the open market. Right.

And Columbus didn't offer Redden basically the same exact contract, just with less term. That was a mirage.

The MARKET dictated what those players got paid. And as a result of that, the Rangers had to offer them a certain amount.

A big part of me doesn't want them to d*** around with Staal, just as I didn't like the impasse with Dubinsky last year. But I sure as hell agree that Dubi isn't worth the $4m per year he was seeking.

Look at Boston with the Lucic deal. Does anyone think that he's worth what he's making? Will he be? Probably not. The "wait and see" approach, while STILL GIVING the players fair value, is best. What if we signed Dubinsky to a 6 year, $24m deal? What if he never scored more than 50 points?

Glen is just using the CBA to his advantage as best he can. He doesn't have a choice. Our other contracts (NOT meant to start a debate about that) dictate it, as do our negotiations with other current and future RFA's. He did the same with Tyutin, and he did the same with Girardi when he signed after his ELC.

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