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Marc Staal talks: "Not a wide gap, a chasm" (UPDATE - close to a deal?)

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06-27-2010, 03:16 PM
  #151
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But you've got not leverage in re-signing him then, because at the end he is a UFA.

Prefer 2 years, but 3 years would be ok. You want to go bigger cap hit, buying some UFA years would be fine. However, 4 years would be the worst case scenario.

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06-27-2010, 03:28 PM
  #152
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Azrok has this completely right regarding years by the way. Even if Sather was open to the idea of a longer-term contract, four years would still be out of the question. If you want to be paid north of $4MM for signing a longer contract, you MUST give up UFA years.

And the idea that this would "put fans minds to rest" is a horrible, horrible justification for how to conduct contract negotiations. I'm sorry that the team not bending over backwards for your favorite player has given you some angst. Unfortunately, this is exactly how we NEED management to operate in a salary cap world.

Lastly, I shouldn't be the only nerd who's running the numbers on CapGeek. Staal and Orr need to take a look at the Rangers cap situation there too - if they did, they would quickly understand that their best bet IS to take the 2 year contract and then get made whole when Drury/Rozsie/Avery are off the books and the cap has had another two years to rise. The fact of the matter is that Slats DOES pay generously at the appropriate stage of the career. So, they're going to try to force his hand now and put the organization's back against the wall, despite the fact that you have no leverage, despite the history we've seen, despite the obvious cap situation and despite the fact that he knows he's going to get his in 2 years? Honestly, where's the outcry for Marc to stop being such a greedy *****?

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06-27-2010, 03:32 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Azrok has this completely right regarding years by the way. Even if Sather was open to the idea of a longer-term contract, four years would still be out of the question. If you want to be paid north of $4MM for signing a longer contract, you MUST give up UFA years.

And the idea that this would "put fans minds to rest" is a horrible, horrible justification for how to conduct contract negotiations. I'm sorry that the team not bending over backwards for your favorite player has given you some angst. Unfortunately, this is exactly how we NEED management to operate in a salary cap world.

Lastly, I shouldn't be the only nerd who's running the numbers on CapGeek. Staal and Orr need to take a look at the Rangers cap situation there too - if they did, they would quickly understand that their best bet IS to take the 2 year contract and then get made whole when Drury/Rozsie/Avery are off the books and the cap has had another two years to rise. The fact of the matter is that Slats DOES pay generously at the appropriate stage of the career. So, they're going to try to force his hand now and put the organization's back against the wall, despite the fact that you have no leverage, despite the history we've seen, despite the obvious cap situation and despite the fact that he knows he's going to get his in 2 years? Honestly, where's the outcry for Marc to stop being such a greedy *****?
Agent just doing his job. Do you think Staal is sitting there with REAL input? It's completely against his own interest to say, "OK, let's just walk in there and tell them 4 years at 3 per, done deal". It's classic negotiation tactics.

EDIT: And anyone sitting there thinking that he'll sign for $2m a year right after hearing the first offer, simply out of loyalty, is nuts. This contract is going to be huge in setting up his future contracts, unless his offense jumps up wildly.

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06-27-2010, 03:34 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Azrok has this completely right regarding years by the way. Even if Sather was open to the idea of a longer-term contract, four years would still be out of the question. If you want to be paid north of $4MM for signing a longer contract, you MUST give up UFA years.

And the idea that this would "put fans minds to rest" is a horrible, horrible justification for how to conduct contract negotiations. I'm sorry that the team not bending over backwards for your favorite player has given you some angst. Unfortunately, this is exactly how we NEED management to operate in a salary cap world.

Lastly, I shouldn't be the only nerd who's running the numbers on CapGeek. Staal and Orr need to take a look at the Rangers cap situation there too - if they did, they would quickly understand that their best bet IS to take the 2 year contract and then get made whole when Drury/Rozsie/Avery are off the books and the cap has had another two years to rise. The fact of the matter is that Slats DOES pay generously at the appropriate stage of the career. So, they're going to try to force his hand now and put the organization's back against the wall, despite the fact that you have no leverage, despite the history we've seen, despite the obvious cap situation and despite the fact that he knows he's going to get his in 2 years? Honestly, where's the outcry for Marc to stop being such a greedy *****?
Because that what players of his caliber get at RFA status. Its fair market value, its not being greedy. If he wants 4.5-5M then we will talk greed.

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06-27-2010, 03:36 PM
  #155
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2.5 million per year is not fair?

i forgot how much of a struggle it is to feed and clothe your family with such a pittance.

please. 2.5 mil per is more than fair.
Well yes of course, but i'm talking fair market value.

In reality they players should be making no more then 1M since thats plenty to feed your kids and shelter them.

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06-27-2010, 03:38 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
Agent just doing his job. Do you think Staal is sitting there with REAL input? It's completely against his own interest to say, "OK, let's just walk in there and tell them 4 years at 3 per, done deal". It's classic negotiation tactics.

EDIT: And anyone sitting there thinking that he'll sign for $2m a year right after hearing the first offer, simply out of loyalty, is nuts. This contract is going to be huge in setting up his future contracts, unless his offense jumps up wildly.
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Because that what players of his caliber get at RFA status. Its fair market value, its not being greedy. If he wants 4.5-5M then we will talk greed.
Guys, I don't think he is being greedy. I do understand that it's the agent doing his job. (Heck, I'm the one who originally predicted $3.5MM remember? ) All I'm saying is that given what's been reported, it's equally valid to be calling out Staal (or more appropriately his agent) as it is to be getting on Sather.

Yet all I'm seeing is a boatload of people ready to get their pitchforks and torches to go after Slats on behalf of poor, mistreated Staalsie.

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06-27-2010, 03:42 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Azrok has this completely right regarding years by the way. Even if Sather was open to the idea of a longer-term contract, four years would still be out of the question. If you want to be paid north of $4MM for signing a longer contract, you MUST give up UFA years.

And the idea that this would "put fans minds to rest" is a horrible, horrible justification for how to conduct contract negotiations. I'm sorry that the team not bending over backwards for your favorite player has given you some angst. Unfortunately, this is exactly how we NEED management to operate in a salary cap world.

Lastly, I shouldn't be the only nerd who's running the numbers on CapGeek. Staal and Orr need to take a look at the Rangers cap situation there too - if they did, they would quickly understand that their best bet IS to take the 2 year contract and then get made whole when Drury/Rozsie/Avery are off the books and the cap has had another two years to rise. The fact of the matter is that Slats DOES pay generously at the appropriate stage of the career. So, they're going to try to force his hand now and put the organization's back against the wall, despite the fact that you have no leverage, despite the history we've seen, despite the obvious cap situation and despite the fact that he knows he's going to get his in 2 years? Honestly, where's the outcry for Marc to stop being such a greedy *****?
What about the 6 or 7 year proposal that I well...proposed? What's wrong with signing Staal to a long term contract now when in the end it would probably SAVE the Rangers money long term? What's wrong with that?

The best bet for Staal is a one year contract if you REALLY want to break it down for what's best for the player. I personally don't call people greedy ******** for wanting what they feel should be worth. And you shouldn't ask for a public out cry, Don't call other people out for not saying what you feel. If you think Staal is a greedy ******* then say it.

The organization put themseleves up against the wall...did they not?

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06-27-2010, 03:42 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Guys, I don't think he is being greedy. I do understand that it's the agent doing his job. (Heck, I'm the one who originally predicted $3.5MM remember? ) All I'm saying is that given what's been reported, it's equally valid to be calling out Staal (or more appropriately his agent) as it is to be getting on Sather. Yet all I'm seeing is a boatload of people ready to get their pitchforks and torches to go after Slats on behalf of poor, mistreated Staalsie.
Sather's just doing his job, too. (And well, as argued in my post above). These people thinking that Staal is going to leave the team or demand a trade or anything like that are over-reacting at this juncture. We're not even in JULY yet.

I think everyone in the Rangers organization realizes just how important Staal is to the team.

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06-27-2010, 03:44 PM
  #159
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Sather's just doing his job, too. (And well, as argued in my post above). These people thinking that Staal is going to leave the team or demand a trade or anything like that are over-reacting at this juncture. We're not even in JULY yet.

I think everyone in the Rangers organization realizes just how important Staal is to the team.
EXACTLY. Both sides are handling this the way they should. The likely outcome is a 2 year deal south of $3MM, followed by a nice, healthy 4 or 5 year deal with an annual salary around $5MM when his next contract comes up (when he will still be an RFA, by the way).

Sather handles his RFAs much better than most of the GMs in the league. I wish I could say the same about the Dr. Jekyll that takes over his body when it comes to other teams' UFAs...

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06-27-2010, 03:52 PM
  #160
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This is a non-story. It's just a negotiating tactic. Sather is trying to lower the price. Staal has no leverage, he's not going to attract an offer sheet so this is just a question of:

1. When will he sign? No way he holds out into the season, but it could go through some of the early part of camp.

2. What kind of deal will it be? Cheap one year deal or a little more for a few more years.
Why would one of the best shut down defense men in the NHL, whom is only 23 years of age w/ his offensive game coming around, can log 25+ minutes against the opposing teams top players in an effective manner, etc, not attract an offer sheet? Like I said, he's not a 40-point center like Brandon Dubinsky whom didn't receive an offer sheet. He's one of the best up and coming shut down defense men in the NHL. Big difference. I'd honestly be shocked if he didn't receive an offer sheet.

He has a lot more leverage than Dubinsky in the same situation.

This comes down to Sather not knowing how to manage contracts and his star talent. Nothing more. You can argue he is just trying to do his "job" but he wouldn't have to do this to players like Staal if he invested in his team more rationally. It comes down to mismanagement as a GM not knowing how to handle his star talent. Staal is worth $3 - $4 million.

Don't you think he should have thought of Staal as a RFA when he signed Redden to $6.5 million and Rozi to $5 million? Good GM's foresee these things playing out in the future and plan their contracts around when key players come off the books IF they desire to resign them. They don't put their team in a stale mate and struggle to sign youthful stars because they mismanaged other contracts on their team.

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06-27-2010, 07:14 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Why would one of the best shut down defense men in the NHL, whom is only 23 years of age w/ his offensive game coming around, can log 25+ minutes against the opposing teams top players in an effective manner, etc, not attract an offer sheet? Like I said, he's not a 40-point center like Brandon Dubinsky whom didn't receive an offer sheet. He's one of the best up and coming shut down defense men in the NHL. Big difference. I'd honestly be shocked if he didn't receive an offer sheet.
Agreed. I was wondering where the assumption that he wouldn't get an offer sheet is coming from. He's a fantastic young D man, one of the best in the league for his age. We need to resign him.

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06-27-2010, 07:37 PM
  #162
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You sign Staal to a 6 or 7 year contract to buy out his arbitration years, and part of his UFA years. THAT should be the stragegy, not THIS.
Exactly. Pay more now to save cap space later. I don't understand why some people are so confused by this.

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06-27-2010, 07:39 PM
  #163
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Agreed. I was wondering where the assumption that he wouldn't get an offer sheet is coming from. He's a fantastic young D man, one of the best in the league for his age. We need to resign him.
No one pays top money for defensive defensemen, so no offer sheet would be so much that we wouldn't match it. All it would do is annoy our franchise and not let us potentially get him on the cheap. There's still a real stigma on offer sheets and it's not really in a teams interest to annoy another team in this way because it could hurt dealings down the line.

Here are some quick points:
-Since the new CBA there have been no offer sheets to defensemen. -Only five offer sheets in total under it.
-Only one player has changed teams due to an offer sheet.

So do we really think Staal is attracting an offer sheet?

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06-27-2010, 07:45 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
No one pays top money for defensive defensemen, so no offer sheet would be so much that we wouldn't match it. All it would do is annoy our franchise and not let us potentially get him on the cheap. There's still a real stigma on offer sheets and it's not really in a teams interest to annoy another team in this way because it could hurt dealings down the line.

Here are some quick points:
-Since the new CBA there have been no offer sheets to defensemen. -Only five offer sheets in total under it.
-Only one player has changed teams due to an offer sheet.

So do we really think Staal is attracting an offer sheet?
Thanks for the info actually, good to know. I guess it wouldn't be a huge deal then, but I still don't think its impossible.

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06-27-2010, 08:13 PM
  #165
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Any team that offer sheets marc staal better hope they get all their top prospects signed before Sather can get at them...

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06-27-2010, 08:28 PM
  #166
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Hey guys Sather has do ruin this team somehow this offseason. I mean seriously if he cant do it with big name signings the man has to make a spalsh lol.

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06-27-2010, 08:49 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
No one pays top money for defensive defensemen, so no offer sheet would be so much that we wouldn't match it. All it would do is annoy our franchise and not let us potentially get him on the cheap. There's still a real stigma on offer sheets and it's not really in a teams interest to annoy another team in this way because it could hurt dealings down the line.

Here are some quick points:
-Since the new CBA there have been no offer sheets to defensemen. -Only five offer sheets in total under it.
-Only one player has changed teams due to an offer sheet.

So do we really think Staal is attracting an offer sheet?
Backes, Bernier, Penner, Vanek and who am I missing?

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06-27-2010, 08:52 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
Backes, Bernier, Penner, Vanek and who am I missing?
*edit* read your post wrong. sorry

Kesler

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06-27-2010, 08:52 PM
  #169
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Backes, Bernier, Penner, Vanek and who am I missing?
Kesler

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06-27-2010, 08:55 PM
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Kesler
I remembered him, but for some odd reason I thought of him and said to myself "nope, pre-lockout". It's hard to believe that that was 5 years ago already.

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06-27-2010, 09:29 PM
  #171
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No one pays top money for defensive defensemen, so no offer sheet would be so much that we wouldn't match it. All it would do is annoy our franchise and not let us potentially get him on the cheap. There's still a real stigma on offer sheets and it's not really in a teams interest to annoy another team in this way because it could hurt dealings down the line.

Here are some quick points:
-Since the new CBA there have been no offer sheets to defensemen. -Only five offer sheets in total under it.
-Only one player has changed teams due to an offer sheet.

So do we really think Staal is attracting an offer sheet?
My point is I can picture a team putting together a $3 - $4 million offer sheet. Which, to my understanding, is probably what Staal is looking for. IF there is an offer of that nature than Sather would be forced to give the $3 - $4 million to keep him anyhow.

Look at what happened to the Sabres. Oilers offer Vanek $7 million and the Sabres were forced to sign Vanek to a $7 million contract to keep him.

I think an offer sheet for a player of his caliber is a real possibility DESPITE being a defense defense man. That being said, I don't think it would be a ridiculous amount as it was in the case of Vanek BUT I'd be willing to bet a team would offer him somewhere in the $3 - $4 million range.

Staal is worth the money. That being said, I'd love Staal to come at a cheap price of $2 million a season but I don't see that happening.

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06-27-2010, 09:47 PM
  #172
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Not worried really. If this is the case, and they can't work out something for a 5 or 6 year deal, then he'll have to wait.

$2.5-3 for 2 years should be fine while he waits for his pay day. That is, if they can't agree on a $5 year/$15-17mil deal or so.

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06-27-2010, 11:12 PM
  #173
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let's not make this more then it is.

This is typical. No reason to give Staal what he wants. He isn't arbitration eligible and I doubt a team would offersheet him.
What kind of numbers are we talking about here?

Amount
Compensation Due

$863,156 or less
None

$863,156 - $1,307,812
3rd round pick

$1,307,812 - $2,615,625
2nd round pick

$2,615,623 - $3,923,437
1st and 3rd round pick

$3,923,437 - $5,231,249
1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick

$5,231,249 - $6,539,062
Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick

$6,539,062 or more
Four 1st round picks

This is the compensation for 09/10, which will need to be adjusted for the new cap number. If a team were to offer Staal a 5 year $26m deal then the compensation is a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick. I know of a ton of teams that would snap at Staal for that, so get ready for that kind of number.

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06-28-2010, 12:13 AM
  #174
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Don't get swindled by the kid Sather, nobody is going to offer him an extravagant amount of money that we cant comfortably match with our space. Staal's agent is just trying to sweat us out of a few M's he doesn't deserve... just yet.

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06-28-2010, 12:59 AM
  #175
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Why would one of the best shut down defense men in the NHL, whom is only 23 years of age w/ his offensive game coming around, can log 25+ minutes against the opposing teams top players in an effective manner, etc, not attract an offer sheet? Like I said, he's not a 40-point center like Brandon Dubinsky whom didn't receive an offer sheet. He's one of the best up and coming shut down defense men in the NHL. Big difference. I'd honestly be shocked if he didn't receive an offer sheet.

He has a lot more leverage than Dubinsky in the same situation.

This comes down to Sather not knowing how to manage contracts and his star talent. Nothing more. You can argue he is just trying to do his "job" but he wouldn't have to do this to players like Staal if he invested in his team more rationally. It comes down to mismanagement as a GM not knowing how to handle his star talent. Staal is worth $3 - $4 million.

Don't you think he should have thought of Staal as a RFA when he signed Redden to $6.5 million and Rozi to $5 million? Good GM's foresee these things playing out in the future and plan their contracts around when key players come off the books IF they desire to resign them. They don't put their team in a stale mate and struggle to sign youthful stars because they mismanaged other contracts on their team.
Of course not. He was too busy battling it out in a bidding war with the G.M. of the Columbus Blue Jackets for Redden's services. We WON!!

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