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Is the Sun Belt Expansion becoming a success? (Mod: or Non-traditional markets)

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06-29-2010, 05:55 PM
  #1
thestonedkoala
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Is the Sun Belt Expansion becoming a success? (Mod: or Non-traditional markets)

I know a lot of fans were (and still aren't) happy about the expansion into the Sunbelt Region of the United States. The arguments can range from flimsy (there is ice in Dallas. Lots of ice...>.>) to legitimate (hard to make inroads where hockey is not known) but looking over the past drafts, it appears there is more talent coming out of the southern region then before. California, Nevada, Arizona, Texas...I mean it's pretty cool when you get guys like Etem, Zucker getting draft in the top 2 rounds.

But is this the natural inclination of the sport or did the expansion help?

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06-29-2010, 05:57 PM
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DrFeelgood
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California is considered "Southern"?

This is news to me.

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06-29-2010, 05:58 PM
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BigFatCat999
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Expansion helped a lot but the NHL still needs to make a stronger commitment to Junior/High School level leagues so the Joe blows who play roller hockey in towns like Greensboro, Smyrna, Huntsville, and Glendale can grow up to be the season ticket holders of the future.

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06-29-2010, 06:05 PM
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thestonedkoala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFeelgood View Post
California is considered "Southern"?

This is news to me.
Yep. California is considered a 'southern' team due to the climate and most of the positioning.

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06-29-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Yep. California is considered a 'southern' team due to the climate and most of the positioning.
California has a very different climate that any part of the South.


Especially where the teams are

SJ=Pacific Northwest Weather-Think Oregon or WA State.
LA & OC= Mediterranean weather




As opposed to

Phoenix= Desert
Dallas= Humid Desert
Georgia=Humid
Florida= Humid


California is nothing like the south and does not have similar weather, culture, or pretty much anything.

Calling California part of the South, is like calling British Columbia part of Alaska. Neither are true.


Last edited by Flour Child: 06-29-2010 at 06:15 PM.
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06-29-2010, 06:16 PM
  #6
thestonedkoala
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Wait Dallas is humid desert???

Dallas is...frickin cold in the winter. UGH.

But usually when people group California in, it's Southern. Kind of like Virginia is North, when in fact it's more southern than anything.

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06-29-2010, 06:20 PM
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Flour Child
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Wait Dallas is humid desert???

Dallas is...frickin cold in the winter. UGH.

But usually when people group California in, it's Southern. Kind of like Virginia is North, when in fact it's more southern than anything.
Deserts get cold in the winter. That's what deserts do. Same applies to Arizona and Nevada.

LA and OC though see 60 degree weather, maybe high 50's


Dallas Weather
Wed
Jun 30
Isolated T-Storms

90
74


------------------------------------------------

La Weather

Wed
Jun 30

Partly Cloudy
79
62


Notice how LA's high temp is not far above Dallas' overnight low?

A world apart....


If you don't believe me..check for yourself

Dallas
http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USTX0327

LA
http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0638

Quote:
Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
But usually when people group California in, it's Southern. Kind of like Virginia is North, when in fact it's more southern than anything.
Mod: deleted. San Jose is as geographically North as Denver and LA as about as backward from GA, VA, AL, etc as you can get

VA although further North IS Part of the South. The South is more cultural than Geographic.

That would be the same as saying that Prince George BC is the same as Sept-Iles Quebec because they are the same latitude.



Responding to the OP. Etem and Bennett are more products of Gretzky's trade to LA than anything.

The trade was about 20 years ago. 20 years= a generation.

The Southern Expansion didn't start until the (around) Mid Nineties.
Those players are about 10-15 years away.


Last edited by Fugu: 06-29-2010 at 08:39 PM. Reason: anybody who says X thingy
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06-29-2010, 06:36 PM
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I think it has with respect to amateur participation which continues to grow, however much much more should be done by the member clubs & the NHL itself in establishing roller-hockey leagues, camps & clinics, financial support & assistance in arena development & the creation & ongoing sponsorships' of amateur leagues from Tyke's to Midget's. If the leagues stated philosophy was & is "growing the game in non-traditional markets south of the Mason-Dixon" you cant do it by simply plunking down an arena & team. Sure growth will occur but as we've all seen likely only after years of bleeding red-ink, talk of relo's, bankruptcies & contraction. Dallas has done a fairly decent job in that regard, however on the business side, even Tom Hicks' will tell anyone willing to listen that the cap & revenue sharing models' busted & needs fixing absent a lucrative national TV contract. If I'm dropping $100M-$250M+ to buy an existing team I'd like to know & have the NHL match me dollar for dollar in a further investment in minor hockey in the city & state in which I've set my sails. If outright expansion, then the league should be re-investing 25%+ of that fee back into the market for the good & "growth of the game". I thinks its fantastic that nearly 30% of the top Draft picks this year were Americans. If expansion is on the horizon anytime soon as opposed to relocation, then start spending in places like Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta etc today on minor hockey. Where are tomorrows stars supposed to come from in a 35-40 team league?. Will these franchises even survive until that day comes without cultivation & community benevolence through support of minor hockey & education?. Dont think so. Talk is cheap, and to date all I've seen from the league is sloganeering & rhetoric about growing the game out of one side of their mouth while asking for money out of the other, providing zero support to struggling owners short of the revenue sharing, & failing to give back to the communities in any meaningful way. Just sayin.

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06-29-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I think it has with respect to amateur participation which continues to grow, however much much more should be done by the member clubs & the NHL itself in establishing roller-hockey leagues, camps & clinics, financial support & assistance in arena development & the creation & ongoing sponsorships' of amateur leagues from Tyke's to Midget's. If the leagues stated philosophy was & is "growing the game in non-traditional markets south of the Mason-Dixon" you cant do it by simply plunking down an arena & team. Sure growth will occur but as we've all seen likely only after years of bleeding red-ink, talk of relo's, bankruptcies & contraction. Dallas has done a fairly decent job in that regard, however on the business side, even Tom Hicks' will tell anyone willing to listen that the cap & revenue sharing models' busted & needs fixing absent a lucrative national TV contract. If I'm dropping $100M-$250M+ to buy an existing team I'd like to know & have the NHL match me dollar for dollar in a further investment in minor hockey in the city & state in which I've set my sails. If outright expansion, then the league should be re-investing 25%+ of that fee back into the market for the good & "growth of the game". I thinks its fantastic that nearly 30% of the top Draft picks this year were Americans. If expansion is on the horizon anytime soon as opposed to relocation, then start spending in places like Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta etc today on minor hockey. Where are tomorrows stars supposed to come from in a 35-40 team league?. Will these franchises even survive until that day comes without cultivation & community benevolence through support of minor hockey & education?. Dont think so. Talk is cheap, and to date all I've seen from the league is sloganeering & rhetoric about growing the game out of one side of their mouth while asking for money out of the other, providing zero support to struggling owners short of the revenue sharing, & failing to give back to the communities in any meaningful way. Just sayin.
You do make some very good points and your post would be a lot easier to read if you broke it up in to paragraphs.

We're seeing the effect of Gretzky to LA trade for sure now. Remember some players like Bobby Ryan aren't credited with being from LA but spent formative years there.

Players coming from TN,AL, FL, GA will take time but I agree with the guy above me that more could be done to speed up the process.

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06-29-2010, 07:28 PM
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Wait, someone is arguing that California isn't south? CA is south no matter how you slice it. Just because your team is commonly accepted by hockey elitists doesn't mean your state migrated to the Canadian border.

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06-29-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
Wait, someone is arguing that California isn't south? CA is south no matter how you slice it. Just because your team is commonly accepted by hockey elitists doesn't mean your state migrated to the Canadian border.
California is South of Canada, but so is every just about other American city not in Alaska.

California itself if not part of the South or the Sunbelt(AZ, NM,etc.)

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06-29-2010, 07:54 PM
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Buck Aki Berg
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Are we really arguing over whether a state that borders Mexico is south or not, based on climate?

They get snow in Tierra del Fuego, I guess that means it's really far north.....

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06-29-2010, 07:57 PM
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handbanana
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
California is South of Canada, but so is every just about other American city not in Alaska.

California itself if not part of the South or the Sunbelt(AZ, NM,etc.)
You can define the "south" in many ways, several not relevant to hockey. I would think that in a hockey sense, the south would be where ice doesn't occur naturally in the winter. The CA teams are at about the same latitude as the Hurricanes, and I surely have not seen vast sheets of ice in southern CA as I have up north.

If you want to define the south culturally, suit yourself... but it's not relevant to hockey, because if you say that Californians are somehow culturally closer to northeners you should know that many of us in the "other south" are northeners as well.

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06-29-2010, 07:58 PM
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Cali isnt south, its west

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06-29-2010, 07:59 PM
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Flour Child
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haymaker View Post
Are we really arguing over whether a state that borders Mexico is south or not, based on climate?

They get snow in Tierra del Fuego, I guess that means it's really far north.....
So using your logic and going strictly by Latitude there is literally no difference between Calgary and Quebec city then, right?

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06-29-2010, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
You can define the "south" in many ways, several not relevant to hockey. I would think that in a hockey sense, the south would be where ice doesn't occur naturally in the winter.

What do you call this?



or that stuff behind Downtown LA?




Look! more snow




All of these pics are from LA County


Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
The CA teams are at about the same latitude as the Hurricanes,
Look up San Jose on a map sometime. It's the latitude of Denver


Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
If you want to define the south culturally, suit yourself... but it's not relevant to hockey, because if you say that Californians are somehow culturally closer to northeners you should know that many of us in the "other south" are northeners as well.
The South is a culture as well as a geographic area. Even wikipedia knows this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture..._United_States (Joke)

I also never said that California has Northern culture.
So Cal, like most of Florida, and Nor Cal has their own culture.


Last edited by Flour Child: 06-29-2010 at 08:09 PM.
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06-29-2010, 08:13 PM
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DrFeelgood
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Wow, I didn't mean for my question to derail the thread It was more or less just a tongue in cheek comment, as i've never heard California referenced as part of the South except maybe as "Southwest".

To answer the OPs question, the Sharks coming to the Bay Area were the sole reason for hockey being big in the Bay Area. Gretzky going to the Kings had nothing to do with growing hockey here, IMO (in the Bay, not LA). The Sharks org. did a great job of building ice rinks in the area and starting youth hockey leagues. I played in the first youth ice hockey league we had here when I was a kid and that definitely turned me into a lifelong fan.

Without the Sharks, I think hockey would still be considered "that other sport" here in the Bay Area.

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06-29-2010, 08:15 PM
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Cali isnt south, its west
Wouldn't it be both then? LA is in the southwest region of the country yes? using that logic Tampa and Miami aren't south either, they're east.

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06-29-2010, 08:18 PM
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DrFeelgood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladoww View Post
Wouldn't it be both then? LA is in the southwest region of the country yes? using that logic Tampa and Miami aren't south either, they're east.
It's just traditional references, everything south of the mason-dixon and east of Texas (including Texas, depending on who you ask) has always been called "The South". New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada have been "Southwest" and California has always just been "West Coast".

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06-29-2010, 08:30 PM
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What talent has come out of Arizona?

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06-29-2010, 08:32 PM
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Its still very much in its infancy but it is finally picking up steam - more and more teams are showing up at the highschool level, and finally producing players (although they're having to end up in the north to get visibility to be drafted, which is still a big problem).

The cost to benefit ratio for people to scout the south is still rather poor, hopefully this will change soon because I think when it does, it'll be amazing for the sport.

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06-29-2010, 08:43 PM
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It is west of the ARK-LA-TEX area minus Phoenix. Notice all the franchises people complain about are in the Eastern/Central time zone, minus PHO again.


Last edited by Melrose Munch: 06-29-2010 at 08:51 PM.
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06-29-2010, 08:43 PM
  #23
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Everyone knows that California is basically another country. And the south is the south.


That doesn't mean that all the north is culturally identical either. The Northeast is nothing like the Midwest.


What was the question here?

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06-29-2010, 08:45 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
It is west of the ARK-LA-TEX area minus Phoenix. Notice all the franchises people complain about are in the Eastern time zone, minus PHO again.
Nashville is in the CTZ.

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06-29-2010, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
You can define the "south" in many ways, several not relevant to hockey. I would think that in a hockey sense, the south would be where ice doesn't occur naturally in the winter. The CA teams are at about the same latitude as the Hurricanes, and I surely have not seen vast sheets of ice in southern CA as I have up north.

If you want to define the south culturally, suit yourself... but it's not relevant to hockey, because if you say that Californians are somehow culturally closer to northeners you should know that many of us in the "other south" are northeners as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by portal333 View Post
Oh, whatever. You won't touch the south because we're so lowly, I get it. Enjoy the beaches and palm trees in your Northern paradise there.
Someone from the southeast complaining about CA? Color me shocked.... I mean we only see this on every newsblog on the web....

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