HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2 UFAs to make us a contender

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-01-2010, 12:22 PM
  #76
iAvs
JUST WIN
 
iAvs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Country: Italy
Posts: 7,474
vCash: 500
What's with the crying going on over here? Let the Avs handle their operations first before we sit and cry about that they "aren't" doing right...

iAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 12:23 PM
  #77
iAvs
JUST WIN
 
iAvs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Country: Italy
Posts: 7,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreamSoda View Post
Did I even say Kovy, you just use blind ignorance all the time.

Thanks for commenting on what I ACTUALLY wrote.

Good job with that buddy.
Look at your avatar man.

iAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 12:40 PM
  #78
Starrlinx
Registered User
 
Starrlinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LS9 View Post
What's with the crying going on over here? Let the Avs handle their operations first before we sit and cry about that they "aren't" doing right...
It is much more fun to throw fits first and retract said insults later

Starrlinx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 01:25 PM
  #79
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreamSoda View Post
Hey thanks for helping my cause.

What did chicago do after that season? Did they continue to just use homegrown draft talent?

Oh wait, they went out and signed Free Agents!!! Chicago does not win the cup without the help they got in the UFA market. Hossa, Campbell....

Its pretty obvious that a team needs to sign UFA players in order to win yet people here are perfectly content watching this team drop out early each playoff year with this current core team...
I agree with this, but with a caveat. If you look at Chicago's roster, the majority of the players who mattered were developed internally, or traded for in return for players who were developed internally. Did a couple of UFA signings get them over the top? Sure. Though a couple more have now led them to partially dismantling that great team.

With the Avs, I agree with you that the Avs need to add some top-shelf talent to what we saw last season, in order to legitimately contend. But, when I say "add", that can be either "sign a UFA", or "trade for", or "develop".

However, is now really the time to do it (the UFA path, I mean)? I don't believe signing any big name FA right now makes much sense, because the Avs are otherwise so very young, it would almost be like wasting the first two years of whatever massive UFA contract they took on, because they're not going to contend anyway. The team is too young. If the Avs put Alex Ovechkin on the current roster, they're still not going to contend for the Cup this season.

The other issue is that the Avs (nor you, nor I) don't really know what we've got on our hands here. You said that there's no way (sic) that Duchene is an elite player. How do you know that? He scored at a 75 point pace over the last 3/4ths of the season. Looking at your list of elite players, how did they do in their rookie season? Sedin had only 29 points. And the Avs don't know what kind of true talent they have with guys like Duchene, Stewart, Mueller, Shattenkirk, etc. They need a couple more years to figure that out, so they know precisely *where* to go get this expensive UFA elite talent. Else, you end up signing Huet to big money, when you've got Niemi sitting right there in the system. Had they just waited a bit, they would have seen that they already had someone as good. That sort of thing.

I'm perfectly fine with the Avs going what they're doing, and will be perfectly fine with it for one more offseason after this one. After that last place finish, I said to myself "4 year rebuild". I'm sticking to it.

-AB

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 01:33 PM
  #80
Seaward*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Theodore's Pants
Country: France
Posts: 3,009
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I agree with this, but with a caveat. If you look at Chicago's roster, the majority of the players who mattered were developed internally, or traded for in return for players who were developed internally. Did a couple of UFA signings get them over the top? Sure. Though a couple more have now led them to partially dismantling that great team.

With the Avs, I agree with you that the Avs need to add some top-shelf talent to what we saw last season, in order to legitimately contend. But, when I say "add", that can be either "sign a UFA", or "trade for", or "develop".

However, is now really the time to do it (the UFA path, I mean)? I don't believe signing any big name FA right now makes much sense, because the Avs are otherwise so very young, it would almost be like wasting the first two years of whatever massive UFA contract they took on, because they're not going to contend anyway. The team is too young. If the Avs put Alex Ovechkin on the current roster, they're still not going to contend for the Cup this season.

The other issue is that the Avs (nor you, nor I) don't really know what we've got on our hands here. You said that there's no way (sic) that Duchene is an elite player. How do you know that? He scored at a 75 point pace over the last 3/4ths of the season. Looking at your list of elite players, how did they do in their rookie season? Sedin had only 29 points. And the Avs don't know what kind of true talent they have with guys like Duchene, Stewart, Mueller, Shattenkirk, etc. They need a couple more years to figure that out, so they know precisely *where* to go get this expensive UFA elite talent. Else, you end up signing Huet to big money, when you've got Niemi sitting right there in the system. Had they just waited a bit, they would have seen that they already had someone as good. That sort of thing.

I'm perfectly fine with the Avs going what they're doing, and will be perfectly fine with it for one more offseason after this one. After that last place finish, I said to myself "4 year rebuild". I'm sticking to it.

-AB

Thank you AB, that was a very well thought out post and I appreciate it. I do agree with you in a lot of regards. Adding one FA right now will not put them over the top. I guess what bothers me is the attitude the organization is presenting. The stubborness to only build from within and not even explore other options is frustrating.

Sure, Duchene could become elite in the NHL, I guess I was a little premature on that, but he could also bust...

It is not often when a top talent like Kovy is available on the open market without having to trade away your entire cubbard to get him. When a team has this much cap room and money to spend, it is frustrating to not even attempt to sign said talent. Sure it being Kovy makes it worse for me, but if it was another elite player it would still be annoyingly stubborn by Avs management.

Seaward* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 03:39 PM
  #81
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreamSoda View Post
Thank you AB, that was a very well thought out post and I appreciate it. I do agree with you in a lot of regards. Adding one FA right now will not put them over the top. I guess what bothers me is the attitude the organization is presenting. The stubborness to only build from within and not even explore other options is frustrating.
But do you know that this is really what they're doing? If they are wholly close-minded, then yes - I agree that's stupid. But, I don't think they are. My evidence? If you look at what they did last offseason, I think it says something:

After the last place finish and subsequent draft, the Avs had to look at their cubbard, and see some very good potential at forward (they had a point-per-game 23 year old center, a #3 pick, a 3rd line center they loved, a couple of 21 or 24 year old 225 lb guys who showed promise, etc). They also had to see some solid potential on defense (a couple of blueliners who had been the backbone of a NCAA national champion, another OHL player who had played really well, etc). So, they didn't go out and spend big money in those places.

However, when they looked into their organization (and at their roster) at the goaltender position, they probably saw nothing terribly promising. So, what did they do? They signed a UFA goaltender. It was a need that couldn't be addressed internally, so they addressed it externally. They didn't blindly beat the "grow from within!" drum. They looked at reality, and executed (and executed well, btw).

Now, if we look at this same rebuilding team one year later, where is the dearth of young prospects/players in the organization? To me, the only position is a top defensive defenseman. Other than that, there are promising young players all over the place. Let's see what they can do over the next two years before committing big salaries to other players. Will the Avs have some of these promising players flop? Surely. Will some of these promising players become good NHL players? Yep. Will any of them become elite? Well, I don't know, but very few do.

Point is, in two more years, the Avs will be in a much better position to figure out who is good, who is a flop, and who can be elite. They can then sign the appropriate players (many who will be then approaching their primes) to appropriate contracts, and then see where the major holes are in the organization. At that time, a pricey UFA is more appropriate. IMO.

I'm game for seeing how they develop. And if the cost of that is 1st round playoff defeats - or even missing the playoffs - for another couple of years, I'm OK with it.

-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 07-01-2010 at 03:44 PM.
ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 05:15 PM
  #82
NWAvsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,825
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
But do you know that this is really what they're doing? If they are wholly close-minded, then yes - I agree that's stupid. But, I don't think they are. My evidence? If you look at what they did last offseason, I think it says something:

After the last place finish and subsequent draft, the Avs had to look at their cubbard, and see some very good potential at forward (they had a point-per-game 23 year old center, a #3 pick, a 3rd line center they loved, a couple of 21 or 24 year old 225 lb guys who showed promise, etc). They also had to see some solid potential on defense (a couple of blueliners who had been the backbone of a NCAA national champion, another OHL player who had played really well, etc). So, they didn't go out and spend big money in those places.

However, when they looked into their organization (and at their roster) at the goaltender position, they probably saw nothing terribly promising. So, what did they do? They signed a UFA goaltender. It was a need that couldn't be addressed internally, so they addressed it externally. They didn't blindly beat the "grow from within!" drum. They looked at reality, and executed (and executed well, btw).

Now, if we look at this same rebuilding team one year later, where is the dearth of young prospects/players in the organization? To me, the only position is a top defensive defenseman. Other than that, there are promising young players all over the place. Let's see what they can do over the next two years before committing big salaries to other players. Will the Avs have some of these promising players flop? Surely. Will some of these promising players become good NHL players? Yep. Will any of them become elite? Well, I don't know, but very few do.

Point is, in two more years, the Avs will be in a much better position to figure out who is good, who is a flop, and who can be elite. They can then sign the appropriate players (many who will be then approaching their primes) to appropriate contracts, and then see where the major holes are in the organization. At that time, a pricey UFA is more appropriate. IMO.

I'm game for seeing how they develop. And if the cost of that is 1st round playoff defeats - or even missing the playoffs - for another couple of years, I'm OK with it.

-AB
Well said.

NWAvsFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 05:19 PM
  #83
Jori
Registered User
 
Jori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 20,209
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jori
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
But do you know that this is really what they're doing? If they are wholly close-minded, then yes - I agree that's stupid. But, I don't think they are. My evidence? If you look at what they did last offseason, I think it says something:

After the last place finish and subsequent draft, the Avs had to look at their cubbard, and see some very good potential at forward (they had a point-per-game 23 year old center, a #3 pick, a 3rd line center they loved, a couple of 21 or 24 year old 225 lb guys who showed promise, etc). They also had to see some solid potential on defense (a couple of blueliners who had been the backbone of a NCAA national champion, another OHL player who had played really well, etc). So, they didn't go out and spend big money in those places.

However, when they looked into their organization (and at their roster) at the goaltender position, they probably saw nothing terribly promising. So, what did they do? They signed a UFA goaltender. It was a need that couldn't be addressed internally, so they addressed it externally. They didn't blindly beat the "grow from within!" drum. They looked at reality, and executed (and executed well, btw).

Now, if we look at this same rebuilding team one year later, where is the dearth of young prospects/players in the organization? To me, the only position is a top defensive defenseman. Other than that, there are promising young players all over the place. Let's see what they can do over the next two years before committing big salaries to other players. Will the Avs have some of these promising players flop? Surely. Will some of these promising players become good NHL players? Yep. Will any of them become elite? Well, I don't know, but very few do.

Point is, in two more years, the Avs will be in a much better position to figure out who is good, who is a flop, and who can be elite. They can then sign the appropriate players (many who will be then approaching their primes) to appropriate contracts, and then see where the major holes are in the organization. At that time, a pricey UFA is more appropriate. IMO.

I'm game for seeing how they develop. And if the cost of that is 1st round playoff defeats - or even missing the playoffs - for another couple of years, I'm OK with it.

-AB
I think you have explained it perfectly.

__________________
Colorado Avalanche Prospects-- News and updates on the future of the Colorado Avalanche!
Colorado's Future -- Team * Manning * MacKinnon * Tulowitzki?
Jori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 05:29 PM
  #84
Seaward*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Theodore's Pants
Country: France
Posts: 3,009
vCash: 500
Again, very well said AB and tough to argue with. I think I just keep coming back to the point that they don't want to even attempt to sign the best free agent talent to hit the open market. Excuse me for my frustration has caused some ignorant posts.

Seaward* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 05:32 PM
  #85
NOTENOUGHBREWER
Registered User
 
NOTENOUGHBREWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
But do you know that this is really what they're doing? If they are wholly close-minded, then yes - I agree that's stupid. But, I don't think they are. My evidence? If you look at what they did last offseason, I think it says something:

After the last place finish and subsequent draft, the Avs had to look at their cubbard, and see some very good potential at forward (they had a point-per-game 23 year old center, a #3 pick, a 3rd line center they loved, a couple of 21 or 24 year old 225 lb guys who showed promise, etc). They also had to see some solid potential on defense (a couple of blueliners who had been the backbone of a NCAA national champion, another OHL player who had played really well, etc). So, they didn't go out and spend big money in those places.

However, when they looked into their organization (and at their roster) at the goaltender position, they probably saw nothing terribly promising. So, what did they do? They signed a UFA goaltender. It was a need that couldn't be addressed internally, so they addressed it externally. They didn't blindly beat the "grow from within!" drum. They looked at reality, and executed (and executed well, btw).

Now, if we look at this same rebuilding team one year later, where is the dearth of young prospects/players in the organization? To me, the only position is a top defensive defenseman. Other than that, there are promising young players all over the place. Let's see what they can do over the next two years before committing big salaries to other players. Will the Avs have some of these promising players flop? Surely. Will some of these promising players become good NHL players? Yep. Will any of them become elite? Well, I don't know, but very few do.

Point is, in two more years, the Avs will be in a much better position to figure out who is good, who is a flop, and who can be elite. They can then sign the appropriate players (many who will be then approaching their primes) to appropriate contracts, and then see where the major holes are in the organization. At that time, a pricey UFA is more appropriate. IMO.

I'm game for seeing how they develop. And if the cost of that is 1st round playoff defeats - or even missing the playoffs - for another couple of years, I'm OK with it.

-AB
Listen to this guy

Last years problems

1) Couldnt score
2) Couldnt defend
3) Couldnt goaltend

Solutions

1) Duchene and youngsters coming up
2) Traded for Quincey, gave bigger roles to Wilson and Cumiskey
3) Signed Anderson

Last season they were pro-active and went out and filled weaknesses. Even during the season when we were all whining about not having a good shooting winger they went and got one in Mueller.

This season management is happy with what they have, I'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt that they know something we dont. And if not we pick that Swedish guy #1

NOTENOUGHBREWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 06:17 PM
  #86
Bonzai12
Registered User
 
Bonzai12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver CO
Country: United States
Posts: 6,839
vCash: 767
Send a message via Yahoo to Bonzai12
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
This season management is happy with what they have, I'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt that they know something we dont. And if not we pick that Swedish guy #1

You can't go wrong with any Swedish guys.


Bonzai12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 06:43 PM
  #87
cyberfan
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreamSoda View Post
Again, very well said AB and tough to argue with. I think I just keep coming back to the point that they don't want to even attempt to sign the best free agent talent to hit the open market. Excuse me for my frustration has caused some ignorant posts.
Glad to see you are coming around slowly. One more point I would add to AB's comments with regard to "blindly build from within". Last year our PK was a little better but still not very good so what did they do this year...they went and sign a very good PK players in Winnik. As AB said so well, once they see the holes in defense after assessing the young kids, they'll go and sign what they need. I like what Sherman is doing. We need to be patient.

cyberfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 07:13 PM
  #88
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CreamSoda View Post
Again, very well said AB and tough to argue with. I think I just keep coming back to the point that they don't want to even attempt to sign the best free agent talent to hit the open market. Excuse me for my frustration has caused some ignorant posts.
No, it's all good. Healthy debate is always OK by me. If you really wanted to see Kovalchuk in an Avs' sweater, that's your prerogative. I'm simply offering a different point of view.

Another way to look at this: Kovalchuk would give the Avs 40 goals for around $8M (just a guess). Is it reasonable for Sherman to think that he could get that same 40 goals - or even more than that - by developing Jones and Mueller? And combined, the two would cost less per year than $8M?

Now, hockey doesn't work quite that way on the ice, but I can see Sherman's point in doing what he's doing.

-AB

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 07:20 PM
  #89
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
Listen to this guy

Last years problems

1) Couldnt score
2) Couldnt defend
3) Couldnt goaltend
4) Couldn't coach.

They addressed two of these for sure, and probably three. They still can't defend, but that's why teams rebuilding with young players can't do a full turnaround in one season.

I'm being cautious about the scoring numbers guys like Jones, Mueller, Yip put up with Colorado. Gonna have to see it again to believe it and be comfortable with it. Stewart also. A lot of young players do regress. See Mueller's last two seasons for Phoenix.

-AB

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 07:23 PM
  #90
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Glad to see you are coming around slowly. One more point I would add to AB's comments with regard to "blindly build from within". Last year our PK was a little better but still not very good so what did they do this year...they went and sign a very good PK players in Winnik.
They didn't even wait that long. In the midst of the season, they got Yelle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
As AB said so well, once they see the holes in defense after assessing the young kids, they'll go and sign what they need. I like what Sherman is doing. We need to be patient.
Especially so when the young defensemen get here. They take longer to develop than forwards typically, and it can be a more painful adolescence on the ice. :-)

-AB

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 08:40 PM
  #91
Bubba Thudd
Moderator
#AvsNewAge
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Avaland
Posts: 12,740
vCash: 50
Last year I expected our team to suck eggs, but I was excited to see our young forwards -- just to see what they might do.
Well, the team didn't suck eggs, and I had a lot of fun seeing what our newbies did.

This year I expect we could very well fall short of what we accomplished last year. But I am excited to see how (if) our young forwards progress, and I'm anxious to see our young Dmen rotated in and out of the line-up.

I just want to see what the "next generation" can do. No lofty expectations.
Except for effort. The guys still on our team played their hearts out last year. If the rookies and other youth do the same this year, I'll be satisfied. More than satisfied, I'll be happy.

GO AVS! Entertain us!

Bubba Thudd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-01-2010, 10:45 PM
  #92
NOTENOUGHBREWER
Registered User
 
NOTENOUGHBREWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
4) Couldn't coach.

They addressed two of these for sure, and probably three. They still can't defend, but that's why teams rebuilding with young players can't do a full turnaround in one season.

I'm being cautious about the scoring numbers guys like Jones, Mueller, Yip put up with Colorado. Gonna have to see it again to believe it and be comfortable with it. Stewart also. A lot of young players do regress. See Mueller's last two seasons for Phoenix.

-AB
They'll probably regress. At least some of them. Maybe even stagnate for a year or two but players rarely hit the height of their careers in the rookie season. I think we can reasonably expect that of the youngsters at least a few of them will get much better. Keep the guys who get better and the ones who dont can be shown the door.

Management is standing pat for this year it doesnt mean they'll stand pat forever and ever.

NOTENOUGHBREWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-02-2010, 12:28 AM
  #93
KHaosActual
Registered User
 
KHaosActual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Germany
Posts: 277
vCash: 500
The UFA I would like to see the Avs go after is Lee Stempniak - 27 - $2,500,000. But I believe his price tag might be a bit too high.
Someone else would be Ryan Potulny a bit cheaper and scored in the AHL who knows what would happen in the NHL. But it still would be nice...


Last edited by KHaosActual: 07-02-2010 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Forgot something
KHaosActual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-02-2010, 04:12 PM
  #94
ABasin
SelkeCaliber Defense
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,783
vCash: 500
Question for CreamSoda:

Dude, continuing our discussion from the other day, I have a question:

Would the Hawks be better off as they are now, with just Kane? Or, with Buf/Ladd/Versteeg and no Kane?

-AB

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2010, 04:44 PM
  #95
avsman
Registered User
 
avsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,603
vCash: 500
i really want a russian lw sniper on colorado not name kovalchuk, anyone else would be awesome, and it would be awesom if we could drat one

avsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2010, 05:17 PM
  #96
Seaward*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Theodore's Pants
Country: France
Posts: 3,009
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Question for CreamSoda:

Dude, continuing our discussion from the other day, I have a question:

Would the Hawks be better off as they are now, with just Kane? Or, with Buf/Ladd/Versteeg and no Kane?

-AB
Never saw this AB...

But to answer your question. I would think they would rather have just Kane over those three mentioned and no Kane. Kane brings an element that sets himself apart. The others can be replaced easily. Sure they are good and had a lot to do with the Hawks winning the SC, but they are not vital aspects like Kane. Hawks still may have won without those three but they would not have won without Kane. (SCGWG aside )

To me, that is what Kovy could bring. I know he hasn't won anything yet, but he adds a certain element that 99% of the league cant. Most players in the league are dispensable and can be replaced with similar talent levels. Very few are indispensable.

Seaward* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2010, 07:56 PM
  #97
NomadJackson
 
NomadJackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 153
vCash: 500
I have no problem whatsoever with the patient approach of the front office. I do have a problem with the fact that they want to charge fans like they are still the perennial Cup contenders of the Sakic/Roy/Forsberg days of yore. That being said, I wouldn't say that the way to reconcile this is to change their current plan of leaning on developing youth and spend money just to justify the ridiculous ticket prices. The only way to reconcile it is to respect the fans and lower ticket prices until the youngsters grow into championship contenders.

NomadJackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.