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Holmgren has sent this organization spiraling downward

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Old
07-02-2010, 08:20 AM
  #76
Snotbubbles
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You guys are rough.

Holmgren took over a team that was the worst in the league. In the 3 years since that time the Flyer have been to 1 SCF and 1 ECF.

He's brought in Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Hartnell, Carle, Coburn and Leino. All guys who played a HUGE part in getting this team to the Finals. This team is not on a downward spiral. JvR, Giroux, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle and now Meszaros are all 25 or uner. So 4/6th or your top 6 and 1/2 of your defense hasn't even hit their prime yet.

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07-02-2010, 08:28 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
You guys are rough.

Holmgren took over a team that was the worst in the league. In the 3 years since that time the Flyer have been to 1 SCF and 1 ECF.

He's brought in Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Hartnell, Carle, Coburn and Leino. All guys who played a HUGE part in getting this team to the Finals. This team is not on a downward spiral. JvR, Giroux, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle and now Meszaros are all 25 or uner. So 4/6th or your top 6 and 1/2 of your defense hasn't even hit their prime yet.
Please. Stop making sense.

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07-02-2010, 08:32 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
You guys are rough.

Holmgren took over a team that was the worst in the league. In the 3 years since that time the Flyer have been to 1 SCF and 1 ECF.

He's brought in Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Hartnell, Carle, Coburn and Leino. All guys who played a HUGE part in getting this team to the Finals. This team is not on a downward spiral. JvR, Giroux, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle and now Meszaros are all 25 or uner. So 4/6th or your top 6 and 1/2 of your defense hasn't even hit their prime yet.
Didn't win it though. And we didn't win it because of the goaltender.

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07-02-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
You guys are rough.

Holmgren took over a team that was the worst in the league. In the 3 years since that time the Flyer have been to 1 SCF and 1 ECF.

He's brought in Pronger, Timonen, Briere, Hartnell, Carle, Coburn and Leino. All guys who played a HUGE part in getting this team to the Finals. This team is not on a downward spiral. JvR, Giroux, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle and now Meszaros are all 25 or uner. So 4/6th or your top 6 and 1/2 of your defense hasn't even hit their prime yet.
Point wise yes he did. Talent wise no he didnt. Didn take a genious to turn this team around when he had plenty of $ to spend. Ricgards,Carter, Umberger, Knuble Pitkanen were already in place. Dotn act liek he came in and took this wretched team that was a bototm feeder for years and turned it around. He didnt.

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07-02-2010, 08:39 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
You guys are rough.

Holmgren took over a team that was the worst in the league. In the 3 years since that time the Flyer have been to 1 SCF and 1 ECF.
Burke took the worst team in the league. No picks, no talent, huge ass contracts.

Homer took a team with Gagne, Knuble, Carter, Richards, Umberger, Giroux, Pitkanen, Hatcher, aging Forsberg and 20-25M in cap space.

It wasn't the worse team in the league. It was a team that was having an off year partially because they were very young and partically because it there were a lot of injuries.

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07-02-2010, 08:42 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Didn't win it though. And we didn't win it because of the goaltender.
Also didn't win it because of the disappearance of Gagne, Richards, and Carter.

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07-02-2010, 08:45 AM
  #82
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That's incredibly obtuse.
If you don't see improvement, you're just a hater.
Sure some improvement on defense and fighting skill, but is our defense now so great that we won't allow any shots on goal, ever? Goalie is the last line of defense, and as of this morning it hasn't improved. Until Homer improves the team goaltending, then this team hasn't improved as a whole.

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07-02-2010, 08:48 AM
  #83
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How is the salary cap situation for next season? It seems to me that the Mezaros contract is really going to throw a wrench into resigning Gagne, Carter and/or Giroux. Everyone in the media seems to just accept the fact that we have to lose a quality forward, but it didn't have to be this way. Homgren has put us in a position where it DOES have to be that way. And the worst part is that in order to "free up cap space", as if it was unavoidable to get ourselves in this position, we will be operating at a position of weakness once again, and have to give up more than in return.

So, when we are forced to trade Gagne, (because we really don't need scoring to win?) it will be some dumb trade like when we trade Gauthier, Gagne plus 2st round pick for a conditional 7th in 2020.

I recognize that getting better is the goal of GMs, but getting better for the short term at the expense of the long term is suicide in the Cap world.

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07-02-2010, 09:02 AM
  #84
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we have about ~15million in cap room next year to possibly sign gagne, carter, giroux, leino.

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07-02-2010, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Also didn't win it because of the disappearance of Gagne, Richards, and Carter.
I thought Flyers were kind of lucky that both Carter and Gagne came back from broken legs.

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we have about ~15million in cap room next year to possibly sign gagne, carter, giroux, leino.
More like 11mil I do not know where 15 came from.

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07-02-2010, 09:07 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Burke took the worst team in the league. No picks, no talent, huge ass contracts.

Homer took a team with Gagne, Knuble, Carter, Richards, Umberger, Giroux, Pitkanen, Hatcher, aging Forsberg and 20-25M in cap space.

It wasn't the worse team in the league. It was a team that was having an off year partially because they were very young and partically because it there were a lot of injuries.
It's pointless to argue this. The OP point was that the Flyers are in a downward spiral. Nothing could be further from the truth.

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07-02-2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
It's pointless to argue this. The OP point was that the Flyers are in a downward spiral. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Pointless becuase you do not know the facts. Facts were that Flyers had a very strong group of young players and prospects as well as huge amount of cap space something that Clarkie left behind.

and this is why Snider said that he did not believe in rebuild because we had such a great core of young players and huge amount of money in cap but I guess you know better, right?

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07-02-2010, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I thought Flyers were kind of lucky that both Carter and Gagne came back from broken legs.
Both looked pretty much spent after the Montreal series. Their lack of production is given an excuse but the fact that they were not scoring makes Leighton stand out more. You win and lose as a team, but in Philadelphia almost everyone crucifies the goalies.

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07-02-2010, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Pointless becuase you do not know the facts. Facts were that Flyers had a very strong group of young players and prospects as well as huge amount of cap space something that Clarkie left behind.

and this is why Snider said that he did not believe in rebuild because we had such a great core of young players and huge amount of money in cap but I guess you know better, right?
So... are the Flyers in a downward spiral? I would argue they are not (I think they've plateaued) - though the window is closing on them to get the Cup in the near future.

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07-02-2010, 09:46 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Pointless becuase you do not know the facts. Facts were that Flyers had a very strong group of young players and prospects as well as huge amount of cap space something that Clarkie left behind.

and this is why Snider said that he did not believe in rebuild because we had such a great core of young players and huge amount of money in cap but I guess you know better, right?
I know the facts. The Flyers had 56 points. Worst in the league. They were a team that had Simon Gagne, Peter Forsberg and a bunch of question marks.

They had two young centermen who were more hype then production. They signed Danny Briere that offseason because they didn't believe that Richards or Carter would develop into 1st line centermen.

Their wing depth at that time was Mike Knuble, RJ Umberger and Simon Gagne. And Umberger was a third liner at best that needed tons of work on skating.

They had the worst defense in the league. It was old and slow.

They had an atrocious PP and an average PK.

They had a team that lacked speed, skill and depth and was built for the pre-lockout NHL.

Holmgren came in and even before spending any of that cap space brought in younger players who could skate in Coburn and Upshall.

You can look three years later and say that these young guys developed, but part of that development was the guys that Holmgren brought in. The Jason Smith, Danny Briere, Kimmo Timonen and Chris Pronger's of the world.

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07-02-2010, 09:47 AM
  #91
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Any dumbass who argues the Flyers lost the Cup because Gagne, Richards, and Carter disappeared oughta be skimmed from the gene pool, bceause I'm tired of swimming around and getting **** all over me from you guys.

The team averaged over 3 goals a game. That should be enough to win the Stanley Cup Finals if your goalie is anyone but Michael Leighton in those same six games. He got outplayed by a rookie who posted a sv% under .890.


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07-02-2010, 09:58 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
Any dumbass who argues the Flyers lost the Cup because Gagne, Richards, and Carter disappeared oughta be skimmed from the gene pool, bceause I'm tired of swimming around and getting **** all over me from you guys.

The team averaged over 3 goals a game. That should be enough to win the Stanley Cup Finals if you goalie is anyone but Michael Leighton in those same six games. He got outplayed by a rookie who posted a sv% under .890.
What like Roberto Luongo?

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07-02-2010, 09:58 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
Any dumbass who argues the Flyers lost the Cup because Gagne, Richards, and Carter disappeared oughta be skimmed from the gene pool, bceause I'm tired of swimming around and getting **** all over me from you guys.

The team averaged over 3 goals a game. That should be enough to win the Stanley Cup Finals if your goalie is anyone but Michael Leighton in those same six games. He got outplayed by a rookie who posted a sv% under .890.
I see I might have my first ignored poster. If you can't argue without resorting to insults, you're not worth talking puck.

The Flyers lost due to a NUMBER of things. One was poor goaltending. ONE. Chicago made up for their poor goalie - Philly did not.

There were other reasons, all of which should be addressed. The gassed Pronger and Timonen will be offset by the new corps of D we have now. Hopefully, the injuries suffered this season will be less detrimental than those to the feet of Carter and Gagne.

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07-02-2010, 10:10 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I know the facts. The Flyers had 56 points. Worst in the league. They were a team that had Simon Gagne, Peter Forsberg and a bunch of question marks.

They had two young centermen who were more hype then production. They signed Danny Briere that offseason because they didn't believe that Richards or Carter would develop into 1st line centermen.

Their wing depth at that time was Mike Knuble, RJ Umberger and Simon Gagne. And Umberger was a third liner at best that needed tons of work on skating.

They had the worst defense in the league. It was old and slow.

They had an atrocious PP and an average PK.

They had a team that lacked speed, skill and depth and was built for the pre-lockout NHL.

Holmgren came in and even before spending any of that cap space brought in younger players who could skate in Coburn and Upshall.

You can look three years later and say that these young guys developed, but part of that development was the guys that Holmgren brought in. The Jason Smith, Danny Briere, Kimmo Timonen and Chris Pronger's of the world.
Question marks means young core or can't you ****ing read in English. The only slow skater was Hatcher. Everyone else was pretty damn fast. Most fans said that Carter was 30-35 goal scorer. Most fans knew that RIchards was a great leader and excellent on D. You do not have to work hard to trade Peter ****ing Forsberg before playoffs.

Here is just an example of how ****ed up your opinion is. You said Umberger needed work on skating?

Talent Analysis
Umberger is an excellent blend of size and skill. For a big young man, he skates almost effortlessly, with a smooth, powerful stride which often leaves opposing forwards in his tracks.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/r.j._umberger

Homer got Briere and Timonen as well as Hartnell? No ****, well he did have 25 million in cap space and that was my point.
Homer did not have to work hard to create a decent team because core of yourng players was already there. How can anyone argue that lol. all Homer had to do is complete a few trades which he did. Zhitnik for Coburn and Forsberg for bunch of prospect from Nashville and then let it rip and spend 25M dollars.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 07-02-2010 at 10:18 AM.
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07-02-2010, 10:31 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Question marks means young core or can't you ****ing read in English. The only slow skater was Hatcher. Everyone else was pretty damn fast. Most fans said that Carter was 30-35 goal scorer. Most fans knew that RIchards was a great leader and excellent on D. You do not have to work hard to trade Peter ****ing Forsberg before playoffs.

Here is just an example of how ****ed up your opinion is. You said Umberger needed work on skating?

Talent Analysis
Umberger is an excellent blend of size and skill. For a big young man, he skates almost effortlessly, with a smooth, powerful stride which often leaves opposing forwards in his tracks.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/r.j._umberger

Homer got Briere and Timonen as well as Hartnell? No ****, well he did have 25 million in cap space and that was my point.
Rathje was a matador on defense. Kukkonen wasn't fast by any stretch of the imagination. Zhitnik was on his last legs. Gauthier and Randy Jones were ok but they certainly weren't fast.

And having a qualifer "for a big man", is equivalent to being the tallest midget in the circus. For a midget, he's extremely tall.

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07-02-2010, 10:45 AM
  #96
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I love how everyone's defense of Homer is that we made it to the SCF. We all know it was luck. The Flyers never would have made it if they had to face Pitt or Was. And guess what, last I checked, both these teams are still in the Flyers conference and have locked up their better talented players for some time. The Flyers will continue to be a 5-8 seed for the next couple of years until Roo and JVR want their $$. Then Homer will be forced to let them go because of all these high priced contracts he is paying. On top of that, these big contracts are preventing the Flyers from getting any better and the depletion of their farm system only adds to the problem. I am amazed how anyone can defend this assclown. We are not good enough to will it now and the Flyers future looks even worse. Take off the rose colored glasses and put down the punch. Homer has ran this team into a corner with no promising way out!!

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07-02-2010, 10:50 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Rathje was a matador on defense. Kukkonen wasn't fast by any stretch of the imagination. Zhitnik was on his last legs. Gauthier and Randy Jones were ok but they certainly weren't fast.

And having a qualifer "for a big man", is equivalent to being the tallest midget in the circus. For a midget, he's extremely tall.
Homer traded for Zhitnik not Clarke. Not a great example by you.
Kukkonen had no problems with speed, he had problems with John Stevens. By the way Homer traded for him. So yes, not a good example by you.
Gauthier is just dumb, Hatcher slow he was not.
Nothing wrong with Jones speed he is just dumb and so is Homer for giving him 2.75M a year. Not a great example by you again.
Rathje was on LTIR that same year. Not a great example by you again.

Bubbles, just give it up.

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07-02-2010, 10:58 AM
  #98
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I agree, in the last four years the team went from last place, to conference finals, to first round exit, to Cup finals. This is a disgrace. Anyone who does that to a team should be tarred and feathered. I can't believe that this team is even in existence any more because of what has transpired over the last few years. It is very likely that Bettman will step in just strip Philadelphia of its franchise because they are such an embarrassment. Let this be a lesson to other GMs. Don't make any moves except for ones that all of the fans agree with otherwise your team is destined to fail just like this team has over the past few years. I am throwing up as I type this because I am so sick of this junk.

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07-02-2010, 11:24 AM
  #99
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I agree, in the last four years the team went from last place, to conference finals, to first round exit, to Cup finals. This is a disgrace. Anyone who does that to a team should be tarred and feathered. I can't believe that this team is even in existence any more because of what has transpired over the last few years. It is very likely that Bettman will step in just strip Philadelphia of its franchise because they are such an embarrassment. Let this be a lesson to other GMs. Don't make any moves except for ones that all of the fans agree with otherwise your team is destined to fail just like this team has over the past few years. I am throwing up as I type this because I am so sick of this junk.
Post of the Year

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07-02-2010, 11:46 AM
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For those saying that "Well, it's a fact that we were better then we were yesterday and the team that we had yesterday made it to the SCF so we're all fine and good!", that's pure ********.

Here's some facts for ya:

-We are not better then we were before. We added a boom-or-bust, 4 million dollar top-four d-man to play on our bottom line. We signed Leighton as our starter (meaning he's no longer going to be splitting games all year long with Emery and Boucher, like last year). We added a vastly over payed goon. How does any of this make us better? Homer absolutely ****ed over our cap space and made no real tangible improvements to this team somehow.

Not to mention that pretty much everyone that we're going to be competing with, like the Penguins for instance, vastly improved themselves. The Pens added Martin and Michalek. The Sens got Gonchar. Vancouver got Hamhuis, Tambellini, and Ballard. The Devils added Volchenkov and Hedberg. Our team got worse cap-wise and stayed stagnant talent-wise while everyone around us got better .

Also, do any of you guys realize the mental roller-coaster of a season we had last year and how lucky we were just to get to the SCF?

Here's some facts for ya:

1) We could have missed the playoffs by a shootout goal. A shootout goal.

2) We had arguably one of the easiest paths to the SCF in God knows how long. We got the perfect matchup for us in the 1st round, got lucky with injuries against one of the worst teams left in the playoffs in the 2nd round, and had the easiest 3rd round opponent possible.

3) If Gagne doesn't come back the game after Krejci goes down with injury or even if Krejci doesn't go down with injury then it's likely that we don't advance past the Bruins in the 2nd round.

4) We signed a career borderline NHLer as our starter. He had a 25ish game (IIRC) flash-in-the-pan stint last year behind a Hall of Fame defense. He then proceeded to give up some of the worst goals in SCF history. We signed that man as our starter, which means that he'll likely end up playing twice as much as he did last year, at least. Proven, sensible options were out there for about .5k more. Hell, it's likely that if we waited out Turco that he would be willing to sign for dirt cheap (possibly even less then for what Leighton is making).

So, to those that say "hey guys, we got to the SCF last year, everything is cool", that's pure ******** and utter nonsense. It's blind faith and a lack of critical thinking skills.

Homer screwed up an extremely simple off-season plan and absolutely screwed the team over.

Also, if Homer doesn't make that Meszaros trade, doesn't sign Shelley to a bogus contract, and over pay Leighton then we would have had enough cap space to sign anyone of Chris Mason, Marty Turco, and Evgeni Nabokov while still probably being able to sign anyone of Michalek, Volchenkov, or Martin (while saving a second rounder). As is though, our holes that we entered the off-season with are still unfilled, we made no real improvement, and we're ****ed cap-wise to the point where we're probably going to have to move a player that actually matters (meaning someone not named Jodey Shelley).

So **** you Homer.


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