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Old
07-02-2010, 02:35 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
DW is a good foundation builder. He needs a lot of aid though in terms of building the team cap, salary prices with only slight overpayment, get some cheap guys that play much higher than there salary, build a defense without trading the chemistry away every year like Rivet, Ehrhoff, this year hopefully he keeps it together and adds not subtract, 3-4 line depth with a playmaker. He doesn't seem to communicate with the coaches, I haven't seen any players that have one ounce of dangle that can propel our PP to new heights. Stubborn is the key word to describe DW. Stubborn doesn't win championships without some aid from good advisors. I hope he is asking Tmac for a list of skills he wants of players that could help the team rather than trying to be a one man army general.
Uh. Kindly explain how Doug Wilson is a good foundation builder.

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07-02-2010, 02:39 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Esoteric Ubiquity View Post
Uh. Kindly explain how Doug Wilson is a good foundation builder.
Kept our top 6
Marleau Thornton Heatley
Clowe Pavs Seto

Boyle Vlasic
Murray Demers

I would say that is a damn good foundation. Problem is with all the other problems DW possesses we lack depth. If he spent wisely we could have been stacked.


Last edited by 5H4RK5: 07-02-2010 at 02:45 PM.
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07-02-2010, 02:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
Kept our top 6
Marleau Thornton Heatley
Clowe Pavs Seto

Boyle Vlasic
Murray Demers

I would say that is a damn good foundation. Problem is with all the other problems DW possesses we lack depth. If he spent wisely we could have been stacked.
clowe and/or murray may not be in the foundation after the summer.
seto isn't signed yet.
heatley is debatable as he comes at the expense of depth (and stacks the forwards instead of the defenders that seem to be key for championships)

demers is a freaking rookie and unproven. matt carle was better than demers as a rookie, and he didn't turn out to be a foundation piece.

at least half of that foundation is questionable.

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07-02-2010, 02:53 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by baydrake View Post
clowe and/or murray may not be in the foundation after the summer.
seto isn't signed yet.
heatley is debatable as he comes at the expense of depth (and stacks the forwards instead of the defenders that seem to be key for championships)
demers is a freaking rookie and unproven.

at least half of that foundation is questionable.
We are a playoff team but are we a Stanley Cup team, time will tell. Building a good foundation means getting to the playoffs every year. Not many GM's can do that. We just need another or co GM or multiple GM's that can aid DW in his weak areas to propel us to contender.

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07-02-2010, 02:59 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
Kept our top 6
Marleau Thornton Heatley
Clowe Pavs Seto

Boyle Vlasic
Murray Demers

I would say that is a damn good foundation. Problem is with all the other problems DW possesses we lack depth. If he spent wisely we could have been stacked.
Marleau
Clowe
Murray

Heatley was
Cheechoo
Michalek

Ehrhoff

Thornton was
Primeau
Sturm
Stuart

Boyle was
Carle
Wishart
1st

With the exception of Primeau and Wishart the rest were/are all Lombardi guys. Yes the 2003 draft was the first with Wilson at the helm. He was probably working off Lombardi's scouting reports. The results (as varied as they are) speak for themselves.

Vlasic
Setoguchi
Demers

He hit a home run (so far) with Vlasic. An under 20 who can come in and solidify the top 4 should have been icing on the cake, not the flour.
Setoguchi has shown flashes of brilliance in his two seasons but as with the 2003 draft, there are plenty of players around him enjoying greater success.
Demers hasn't proven anything yet. He's been a great surprise so far, has a long way to go, and has the drive to do it. He's definitely more shaky than Vlasic but for a 7th rounder, he is a nice surprise.

So, before he is anointed a great foundation builder, it's important to look at how that current 'foundation' has come to be. He's shipped out a lot of assets and made many gambles, few of which have worked. It's evident that neither he, nor his scouting staff have historically been the best at judging talent, especially in the early rounds. It can be argued that what he has is largely still a product of Lombardi's players.

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07-02-2010, 03:00 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
We are a playoff team but are we a Stanley Cup team, time will tell. Building a good foundation means getting to the playoffs every year. Not many GM's can do that. We just need another or co GM or multiple GM's that can aid DW in his weak areas to propel us to contender.
payroll is a pretty good predictor of playoff chances. only one team spent more than SJ last year and missed the playoffs (Toronto)

there are worse GMs, but the ability to be not-terrible isn't that rare.

and i don't think co-GMs is ever a good idea.

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07-02-2010, 03:05 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by baydrake View Post
clowe and/or murray may not be in the foundation after the summer.
seto isn't signed yet.
heatley is debatable as he comes at the expense of depth (and stacks the forwards instead of the defenders that seem to be key for championships)

demers is a freaking rookie and unproven. matt carle was better than demers as a rookie, and he didn't turn out to be a foundation piece.

at least half of that foundation is questionable.
That can be said about every team in the NHL and that's why they play the games.

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07-02-2010, 03:20 PM
  #108
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That can be said about every team in the NHL and that's why they play the games.
so DW is a top 30 GM in the league. that makes him a foundation builder?

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07-02-2010, 03:24 PM
  #109
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I dont think its accurate to use Carle's stats as how good he was compared to other sharks rookies. He was a beneficiary of a JT line that was unstoppable that year.

IMO Carle is totally overrated

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07-02-2010, 03:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Esoteric Ubiquity View Post
Marleau
Clowe
Murray

Heatley was
Cheechoo
Michalek

Ehrhoff

Thornton was
Primeau
Sturm
Stuart

Boyle was
Carle
Wishart
1st

With the exception of Primeau and Wishart the rest were/are all Lombardi guys. Yes the 2003 draft was the first with Wilson at the helm. He was probably working off Lombardi's scouting reports. The results (as varied as they are) speak for themselves.

Vlasic
Setoguchi
Demers

He hit a home run (so far) with Vlasic. An under 20 who can come in and solidify the top 4 should have been icing on the cake, not the flour.
Setoguchi has shown flashes of brilliance in his two seasons but as with the 2003 draft, there are plenty of players around him enjoying greater success.
Demers hasn't proven anything yet. He's been a great surprise so far, has a long way to go, and has the drive to do it. He's definitely more shaky than Vlasic but for a 7th rounder, he is a nice surprise.

So, before he is anointed a great foundation builder, it's important to look at how that current 'foundation' has come to be. He's shipped out a lot of assets and made many gambles, few of which have worked. It's evident that neither he, nor his scouting staff have historically been the best at judging talent, especially in the early rounds. It can be argued that what he has is largely still a product of Lombardi's players.
Vlasic is one dimensional, anything but a homerun.

Resonding to what someone else said, although Boyle is my favorite player, he is not a #1 defenseman. Slow group of forwards = Solid Foundation?

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07-02-2010, 03:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DarrylshutzSydor View Post
Vlasic is one dimensional, anything but a homerun.

Resonding to what someone else said, although Boyle is my favorite player, he is not a #1 defenseman. Slow group of forwards = Solid Foundation?
What the heck?

I believe Boyle is one of the top 5 defensemen in the NHL, definitely top 10. What the heck are you hoping for?

I'm sorry, you totally invalidate your opinion with a ridiculous statement like that. More than half the teams in the league would KILL for Boyle.

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07-02-2010, 03:42 PM
  #112
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What the heck?

I believe Boyle is one of the top 5 defensemen in the NHL, definitely top 10. What the heck are you hoping for?

I'm sorry, you totally invalidate your opinion with a ridiculous statement like that. More than half the teams in the league would KILL for Boyle.
i think he means in terms of defense. guys like duncan keith dont grow on trees. boyle is great, he just never has played with a d-man that can help him on both ends of the rink (at least during his time in sj).

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07-02-2010, 03:45 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
i think he means in terms of defense. guys like duncan keith dont grow on trees. boyle is great, he just never has played with a d-man that can help him on both ends of the rink (at least during his time in sj).
In terms of overall game, Boyle is clearly a #1 and Top 5 in the league.

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07-02-2010, 03:46 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by DarrylshutzSydor View Post
Vlasic is one dimensional, anything but a homerun.

Resonding to what someone else said, although Boyle is my favorite player, he is not a #1 defenseman. Slow group of forwards = Solid Foundation?
You again?

Vlasic was drafted in the 2nd round after said 2nd round pick was acquired for a struggling goaltender.

He came in, won a spot in camp and up until last season had played every game but 1. He suffered his first injury of his career and still played 60+ games in the season.

Kindly name another 19 year old 2nd round draftee defenseman to come into the league and play in every game(but 1) for the first 3 years of his career.

Name a 2nd round D to come in and play every game(but 1) for the first 3 years of his career.

Name a 19 year old D to come in and play every game(but 1) for the first 3 years of his career.

I know he's not like your favourite player (who you also dump on, hilarious btw there's a reason he was on the olympic team ) but to discount the good fortune that Wilson had by making Vlasic his player at that pick would be as erroneous as it would be foolish.

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07-02-2010, 04:05 PM
  #115
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so DW is a top 30 GM in the league. that makes him a foundation builder?
No, I'm just saying that there are question marks on every team, as well as injuries, under-performing, overachieving and all sorts of other unpredictable crap. Deciding the fate of a team in July is ridiculous. The Sharks foundation is very, very good, whether you like the current D corps or not.

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07-02-2010, 04:06 PM
  #116
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i think he means in terms of defense. guys like duncan keith dont grow on trees. boyle is great, he just never has played with a d-man that can help him on both ends of the rink (at least during his time in sj).
I'm curious to see how Duncan Keith does next season when Chicago actually has to play defense.

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07-02-2010, 04:12 PM
  #117
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In terms of overall game, Boyle is clearly a #1 and Top 5 in the league.
oh please, not top 5. top 10 if he's lucky.

pronger,lidstrom,weber, niedermayer,chara, keith, doughty, mccabe, and then we can start mentioning boyle a couple of defensive steps ahead of mike green loll...
Sorry but boyle is completely overrated defensively by our fans. He's not campbell bad but he makes plenty of mistakes.

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07-02-2010, 04:29 PM
  #118
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oh please, not top 5. top 10 if he's lucky.

pronger,lidstrom,weber, niedermayer,chara, keith, doughty, mccabe, and then we can start mentioning boyle a couple of defensive steps ahead of mike green loll...
Sorry but boyle is completely overrated defensively by our fans. He's not campbell bad but he makes plenty of mistakes.
Boyle's better than McCabe.

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07-02-2010, 04:30 PM
  #119
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oh please, not top 5. top 10 if he's lucky.

pronger,lidstrom,weber, niedermayer,chara, keith, doughty, mccabe, and then we can start mentioning boyle a couple of defensive steps ahead of mike green loll...
Sorry but boyle is completely overrated defensively by our fans. He's not campbell bad but he makes plenty of mistakes.
neids retired,
Lidstrom was great but getting pretty old and is no longer one of the elite
and do you really think Mccabe is better than Boyle??

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07-02-2010, 04:31 PM
  #120
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Seriously, Bryan Mccabe is better than Boyle? And of those guys, Lidstrom has lost a step and will only be worse this year. Weber is rather overrated, he's good defensively, but not as good in controlling the play as Boyle, Keith or Suter. Chara is also really not that good. I don't really think he deserved his Norris last year, where Lidstrom was clearly a cut above him while playing in front of goaltending that wasn't ridiculously good.

Right now I'd rank them as Keith, Dougthy, Lidstrom/Pronger, Boyle, Suter, Weber.

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07-02-2010, 04:32 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
oh please, not top 5. top 10 if he's lucky.

pronger,lidstrom,weber, niedermayer,chara, keith, doughty, mccabe, and then we can start mentioning boyle a couple of defensive steps ahead of mike green loll...
Sorry but boyle is completely overrated defensively by our fans. He's not campbell bad but he makes plenty of mistakes.
Boyle was 6th in voting for the Norris.

Keith, Doughy, Green, Pronger and I cant find #4 for some reason (I assume Lids). Weber was 7th.

Mccabe? Was that a joke?

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07-02-2010, 04:58 PM
  #122
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so DW is a top 30 GM in the league. that makes him a foundation builder?
I just mean this comically; isn't every GM at least a top 30 GM in the 30 team league? So I agree, he is a top 30 at least.


Last edited by 19sharks19: 07-02-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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Old
07-02-2010, 06:38 PM
  #123
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The way Sutter is rolling right now, see if there are any ex Flames to be had.

Fleury?
MacDonald?
Otto?

Surely those three could garner Ian White, too!
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but is there any chance we could land White by dangling Clowe to Sutter?

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07-02-2010, 07:08 PM
  #124
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White for Clowe works for me.

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07-02-2010, 07:46 PM
  #125
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White for Clowe works for me.
Sold. Move Couture up to 2nd line duties, sign Richard Park (or similar).


Adding to the trade speculation; Simon Gagne has been asked to waive his NTC. From LeBrun 3hrs ago.

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