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Paul Martin to Pittsburgh (5 years, $5M/year)

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Old
07-03-2010, 10:44 AM
  #401
kyle evs48
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benhankinson

I keep getting asked bout his offers. Paul Martin only had 1 offer under $5M per yr, all on long term deals. Turned down much more $ 2b Pen.

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Old
07-03-2010, 12:17 PM
  #402
ARS
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This was a really good signing for Pittsburgh(and that makes me hate them even more ). With Z Michalek and Martin patrolling the blueline for the Pens, their backend just got a whole lot scarier.

Personally, I'd take Martin over Volchenkov.

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07-03-2010, 12:20 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by DregerFan View Post
Thanks for accurately communicating my sentiment, you hit the nail on the head. I am about all 3.

Brad Stuart and Kronwall were the most important unit for us in the 08 SCF. Maybe it's because if anyone wanted to match up against Lidstrom and Rafalski on the point, we had a legitimate second unit that was playing like a first unit.

I am frustrated at how Ray Shero is pissing away such a great core. He keeps adding feces to the team, all the while not addressing the need Pittsburgh has on the wing.

He keeps making stupid signings, and stupid trades. He's always eager to trade his second rounder to try and get crosby some legitimate linemates.

If he didn't flail around so stupidly in the FA market, I wouldn't even post that rant.

They have Malkin and Crosby for a total of 17.4M. How can he justify giving Fleury 5M? How can he justify giving Kunitz 4M when he hasn't proven that he is as-prolific as he was in Anaheim. I am _ALL_ for pay-for-potential contracts, but I wasn't sold on Kunitz to begin with.

I am not saying Pittsburgh's D is bad, but for the amount of money they're being paid... I would say it is. Who would you rather have? Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall or Letang, Michalek, Martin and Orpik? I know it's pretty obvious you would take Detroit's unit.

I won't lie, it frustrates me seeing Ken Holland NOT make noise on the deadline. But then I also realize our team philosophy is "Build from within, treat them well, and they will stay long term for fair dollars".

If Shero had cared to employ this strategy 2 years ago, maybe the Pittsburgh penguins wouldn't be the biggest Plugger team known to man. I'm not trying to insult them at all, but they've got plugger players for the wing now. Do Crosby, Malkin and Staal deserve to suffer for Shero's mistakes? I don't think so.

ADDRESS THE WING RAY, AND START BUILDING FROM WITHIN!

How can any Pittsburgh fan be okay with all of these contracts. This suffocates Crosby and Malkin's ability to find good line mates unless Pittsburgh is developing some in their farm. I don't know how good their farm is so I won't comment on that.

All I know is if Pittsburgh's cupboards are bare, then these signings do not help the much-needed depth at wing to help their centers.

Sigh
I find you postings to be biased and trolling but maybe that is just me?

Why don't you worry about your wings team and leave us to worry about how Shero is doing.

I for one am very happy with how Shero has run the Pens since he has taken over. All you can ask for is an organization that gives you a chance for a championship and Shero and our ownership have done that the past 3 years.

What is not to like? Shero has the most important pieces to a championship team which is strength down the middle signed for long term deals. Name all the teams that have a core of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal down the middle at center plus a top 4 D of Martin, Michalek, Orpik, and Letang plus in goal Fleury and all are in their 20's and signed for the next 3+ years.

You win down the middle and the Pens won the Cup with their best winger being Kunitz and the other top wingers being Guerin, Talbot, and Fedotenko so I think that proves Shero's philosphy. The Pens won the Cup with those 4 par to sub par top 2 line type wingers and that was with a lesser D and a core that was not even in its prime yet. I am very happy to have this core locked up and I believe this will give the Pens a chance for Cup runs every year for the next several seasons.

I don't think the Pens have any players on the team that has a bad contract. I think Kunitz my be getting paid slightly more than I would like but when you think about the physical game he brings and his #'s over the last 4 years he would most likely of got more as a UFA this summer.

25 goals and 60 points
21 goals and 50 points
23 goals and 53 points
13 goals and 32 points in 50 games (which over an 82 games is right about his norm)

$3.75 million a year is the going rate for a physical 2 way winger that gives you 20+ goals and 50+ points a year.

I will debate any single contract with you if you think a guy is drastically overpaid.

I really believe the Pens are in great shape going forward for the next 5 years thanks to Shero. We have our top 4 dmen signed for 4+ years and they are 23, 27, 29, and 29. Our #5 dmen Gogo is 24 and is coming off a season that in his 82 games played counting playoffs he had these #'s (82 games, 10 goals, 46 points, +11) not bad for your 5th Dman on next years team. So the D has a core of 5 dmen 23 to 29 years old all signed for years that are one of the better top 5's in the nhl. The Pens have many dmen that will be fighting to get that 6th dman spot over the next 1-4 years like Lovejoy, Bortuzzo, Strait, Sneep, Despres, Samualsson, etc. So the D looks taken care of for years. So the Pens look to have one of the top 5 D's in the NHL for many years. I can see Shero trading a dman for a young winger or two down the road when someone like Despres is ready to be a top 4 dman for us.

As far as the Martin contract I think most people around the NHL think that is about right for him. Really did anyone really believe Martin who made $4.5 million a year on his last contract was going to get less than $5 million as a UFA? When you look at the other dmen signed I find his contract right were it should be. Top minute guy on a good defensive team for the past 3 years is going to cost you around what we paid. His agent said he was offered significantly more by some other teams. Yes, I would of prefered $4.5 million but considering Hamhuis signed for that then I see $5 million is pretty good for Martin who I believe is more proven and better than Hamhuis. I actually like Michalek better than Hamhuis but think they are pretty close but I rather have the guy that led his good defensive in minutes than a guy that was a 2nd pairing guy on his team.

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Old
07-03-2010, 03:51 PM
  #404
IcedCapp
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re: Wings D v Pens D - not sure which I'd rather have. Pens D is young, signed longer, and cheaper than Wings D (Both top 4 v top 4, and total D v Total D).

Even if you think Rafalski/Lidstrom are better than the top 2 of the Pens, they are done sooner than later. Pens D has a chance to grow and get better for the next 4 years.

I'd be pretty stoked with this D as a Pens fan.

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Old
07-03-2010, 05:23 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
For the record - I have the utmost respect for Detroits organisation. They've been fantastic.



He took us to the final and was a 1st overall pick. In his fist season on 5 million dollars, Fleury won the cup. I am not saying I liked the number or agreed with it at the time, but if he had signed him to a new short term RFA deal at first to confirm himself further, he would have certainly gotten his 5 million and maybe more after winning the cup.



What kind of nonsensical argument is that? Kunitz arrived on 3.7 million (which he got after winning the cup with Anaheim after his career year so far) and he is still on that very contract for two more seasons. He is not exactly a bargain, but he certainly isn't overpriced either. It was a trade for a player making 4 million btw (Whitney, who was soooffff), and we got Tangradi on top of it as part of the deal, who is the best power forward prospect we have in ages - and will likely play top6 this coming season. It was a superb trade.
Also - Kunitz not being as prolific as in Anaheim is only about being healthy, because he has a higher PPG in Pittsburgh than he did in his best seasons at Anaheim. I suppose you just don't know what he is doing for us.



... just the same. He has been gold for us when playing, and is a huge reason for Crosby having been able to become the goal scorer he is.



How about we see how it plays out? Your top pairing has a 40 year old and a 37 year old, and the only reason it works is that Lidas is iconic level awesome. A bit how Malkin was able to have a Conn Smythe run for the ages with Fedotenko and Talbot on his line. Megastars lift all boats.
Pens have a group that should be very good, and will only get better. Detroit's group will only get worse. I would absolutely take the Pens D even if I also agree that Detroit's will likely be better than ours next season too. Post-Lidström...? Well.... lets see what you find and what you pay in free agency.... top pairing defensemen aren't cheap.



Its probably because of the cap.... he hasn't any room for more before what with having to sign some RFA's and be sure not to make deals that jeopardize re-signing Howard and Ericsson after this season...



Yeah - and the Wings are miles ahead of any other team on that score over the past decade, not least because of a certain Swedish scout. But lets not pretend that there's not an element of luck to it as well (after all, if the Wings had genuinely thought that Lidas or Z would be as good as they were, they wouldn't have picked them where they did), or that times haven't changed in terms of teams investing in scouting.
Your present team has the depth it has because of the contracts signed by players you've had since before the lockout. Z, Datsyuk and Franzen signed contracts that simply are not comparable with our stars who were immediately go-to players in an environment where the cap exploded upwards.
There's a reason Zetterberg could be signed to a 2.5 million dollar RFA dal (or something like that) coming out of the lock-out. That reason is that he had played only two years in the NHL and hadn't gotten more then 44 points in either. Then after having been a surreal bargain for four years, Zetterberg signed a life-time deal as a 28 year old that pays until he is 41.
You simply cannot get guys like Crosby or Malkin to sign those at their ages, and there's no way you can get them cheap like Zetterberg at first, because both of them had two 100+ points seasons at the same age Zetterberg had his first season in the NHL.
The Pens were too bad of a team with too terrible finances to keep their medium prospects out of the NHL like Detroit has been doing (thus getting strong production from them at low cap-hits when they get in), and got too good too quick to be able to keep wages down for players suddenly playing big roles on teams going deep.



With all due respect.... if Shero had done differently when he traded for Hossa, perhaps we hadn't had the chance to see our team in a Stanley Cup final in either of those seasons. 'This strategy' that you talk about... it could not have been employed by the Pens, nor can you argue that the Detroit Red Wings are currently succeeding with it. Its a long time thing, and they're living off the fruits of yesteryear with two oldies on the top6 beyond those hail Mary draft picks already mentioned.

Either way, the only way the Pens can get really good depth in the cap-age is if we have prospects panning out down the line, and it is WAY too early in Shero's reign to say that good things cannot happen on that score. The first player he ever drafted for us is now all of 22 years old. That's Jordan Staal who was a Selke nominee last season, and has played four full seasons in the NHL. That's how old Zetterberg was in his FIRST season in the NHL.

Btw. Do you know how many players the Red Wings have on their NHL roster for next season who was drafted in 2006 or later (when Shero became the Pens GM? Well - 0.
I imagine you can give Shero a bit of time when it comes to 'building from within'. Otherwise you simply don't understand what it is that has made your own team successful
.

I cannot argue with anything you have said. I agree with nearly everything. All I'm saying is that it's too much in a cap-era to be investing that much in those players. I totally understand Malkin and Crosby's 8.7, but why couldn't they take a little less? And I know Sidney Crosby is a perennial Hart-candidate, but let me argue this: Even as a 120 point player, is Sidney Crosby's 20 extra points worth 2 million more than Datsyuk? I know there are intangibles people value, but I think that leading in hockey is done by playing hard on the ice. I know Sid plays very hard. He's a true competitor.

I don't see how Martin is worth 5 million, honestly. I understand the market has demand and that can inflate a players value. How can we not assume that wasn't the case here?

All things being equal, I think PM is actually a 4 M defenseman. Maybe 1M/year overpayment is acceptable if he produces his 40 points and +25 rating.

You're too right about being able to lock in Zetterberg to that nice 3M RFA deal. But it was a lot for him to be getting at the time, considering RFAs didn't get paid much. He was paid quite well, imho, because no one dared to do offer sheets at the time. If I recall correctly, the Kesler offersheet by Clarke was done a year or 2 after.

Our prospects are ready man. We should have a nice wheel barrow full of em this year. Kindl is nearly ready, Tatar is showing great strides in his development, Ritola is ready for the big game, Abdelkader will be a solid grinder. And Helm? Well, I have great hope for Helm. I honestly see him going down as one of the greatest penalty killers of all time if he keeps showing the great composure and intelligence. He has single handedly saved us on so many PKs.

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Old
07-04-2010, 12:11 PM
  #406
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I cannot argue with anything you have said. I agree with nearly everything. All I'm saying is that it's too much in a cap-era to be investing that much in those players. I totally understand Malkin and Crosby's 8.7, but why couldn't they take a little less? And I know Sidney Crosby is a perennial Hart-candidate, but let me argue this: Even as a 120 point player, is Sidney Crosby's 20 extra points worth 2 million more than Datsyuk? I know there are intangibles people value, but I think that leading in hockey is done by playing hard on the ice. I know Sid plays very hard. He's a true competitor.
Well considering Crosby is a 22 year old who is a shoe in each year for 100 points, imo he is worth the extra 2 million. You could argue at this point datyusk is a better player (though personally i wouldn't), but crosby hasn't even come close to reaching his full potential with 3 years left on his contract.


Last edited by howisthispossible: 07-04-2010 at 12:21 PM.
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Old
07-04-2010, 01:12 PM
  #407
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Go look at the Redwings board on the FA thread and look at the time Pittsburgh made their signings. I looked on most of the key team's boards that day because I was curious to the reactions to the signings. There was general consternation at the Pens making a signing that most on Detroit's board hoped they would make. That was true on every other board I looked at. Not just 'approval' of the signings of Martin and Michalek, but in every single case those were the players that almost every single person who posted on those boards, including Detroit's, wanted. And almost no one said at the time on those boards that the signings were overpaid, quite the opposite. When one person now and then said it they were called idiots. Go back and look if you do not believe me.

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