HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Was the Pronger Trade Worth it?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-07-2010, 02:05 AM
  #101
FlyerEra2010
Registered User
 
FlyerEra2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lakeville, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 927
vCash: 500
If I may answer the question a little more personally, I'm gonna say yes.

The run this team just had was easily the most fun I've had watching sports in my entire life and I'm a huge sports fan. Without Pronger, it doesn't happen.

FlyerEra2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 04:03 AM
  #102
Hermit Wizard Eater
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Lupul - (salary dump) overpaid dime a dozen winger. You can get a 50point $4mill winger for next to nothing in the current salary cap world

Sbisa - good d-prospect, too small to be a stud though

2 late 1st rounders (this hurts, as the Flyers are good at drafting here, but what can you do?)
Yeah, 6"2 is really small

Hermit Wizard Eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 05:25 AM
  #103
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,002
vCash: 500
In this town it's nothing new. Only a matter of time before you go from playoff hero to aging/overpaid athlete who isn't worth his contract and should be traded. I wonder how long it will take for Chris Pronger to reach that.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 05:43 AM
  #104
ChumpyG
Jibbity jibbity
 
ChumpyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Country: Sami
Posts: 2,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
In this town it's nothing new. Only a matter of time before you go from playoff hero to aging/overpaid athlete who isn't worth his contract and should be traded. I wonder how long it will take for Chris Pronger to reach that.
The fact this thread has been started means it shouldn't be much longer now.

ChumpyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:27 AM
  #105
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
In this town it's nothing new. Only a matter of time before you go from playoff hero to aging/overpaid athlete who isn't worth his contract and should be traded. I wonder how long it will take for Chris Pronger to reach that.
Probably when he retires in 3 years and we have to eat his cap hit until he's 42. That might do it.

JVR21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:28 AM
  #106
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're not talking about a team game here. We're talking about the decision a single man made with the assets at his disposal, and the logical justification for making that decision (to win a Stanley Cup). If that deal isn't about getting that done, then you don't make that deal. You're conflating two things that are not one and the same. It is not Chris Pronger's fault (exclusively) if we fail to win a Cup... that's not even Holmgren's "fault," per se. It's just the stakes of the deal he made...
The purpose for the trade was not to win a Stanley Cup, no single trade will give you that. It was to give the Flyers a chance to win the Stanley Cup. There are so many other things that need to happen along the way in order to capture that prize, but in trading for Chris Pronger Holmgren greatly increased the likelihood of a cup in Philadelphia. I for you will NEVER question this deal. If we do not win a cup with Pronger in Philly, it was still the right move. Unless one is willing to argue that we could have used those assets (Sbiza, Lupol, first rounders) to win a cup! Another trade? Those players would have made us better? I don't think so, we are a better team with Pronger and now that he is at a hit of 4.9 million, he is the best bargain player in hockey. Just think, you could have Lupol at 4.2 or Pronger at 4.9.....hmmm, let me think....

phillyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:34 AM
  #107
ihatebraydenschenn
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SunnyvaleTrailerPark
Country: Canada
Posts: 984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit Wizard Eater View Post
Yeah, 6"2 is really small
My buddy is 6'1" and he is STILL a little *****.

Height doesn't show how large your frame is overall. Sbisa was small.

ihatebraydenschenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:48 AM
  #108
JSTAFF
Registered User
 
JSTAFF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: Italy
Posts: 4,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by galvo View Post
My buddy is 6'1" and he is STILL a little *****.

Height doesn't show how large your frame is overall. Sbisa was small.
The kid was 18 years old. How many brick **** houses do you know at 18? Give him one offseason with the right trainer and diet and he would be a beast.

JSTAFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 09:22 AM
  #109
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,252
vCash: 500
Sbisa is 20 years old and is listed as 6'2" 195. The dude is still filling in but is no way small. I guess Timonen is a freakin midget then at 5'10". I don't know about anybody else but in the short stint he had in Philly he showed more willingness to use his body than Carter and some other regulars. Anaheim wasn't stupid in getting him in the trade. He has a lot of upside. Let's hope he's the next Jiri Latal for the Flyers sake...

Here's a nice clip of Luca in action..

Luca Sbisa Levels Scott Glennie & Drop Gloves w/ Schenn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEeq_blRLqE

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:14 AM
  #110
qwertysac
Registered User
 
qwertysac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,090
vCash: 500
Without a doubt.

qwertysac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:20 AM
  #111
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The purpose for the trade was not to win a Stanley Cup, no single trade will give you that. It was to give the Flyers a chance to win the Stanley Cup. There are so many other things that need to happen along the way in order to capture that prize, but in trading for Chris Pronger Holmgren greatly increased the likelihood of a cup in Philadelphia. I for you will NEVER question this deal. If we do not win a cup with Pronger in Philly, it was still the right move. Unless one is willing to argue that we could have used those assets (Sbiza, Lupol, first rounders) to win a cup! Another trade? Those players would have made us better? I don't think so, we are a better team with Pronger and now that he is at a hit of 4.9 million, he is the best bargain player in hockey. Just think, you could have Lupol at 4.2 or Pronger at 4.9.....hmmm, let me think....
Obviously, that's why it was a deal to put us "over the hump" not build the team. As said, there's a reason a "rebuilding" team doesn't make the deal we made, and it's because they're not making a deal where the stakes are "to win the Stanley Cup."

As to your argument about the value of the trade not helping us to win a Cup... 5 years from now, Sbisa and the two 1sts absolutely would have been helping us more than Pronger will be. The deal was about winning the Cup now, if you want to get into assessing the value of Sbisa and 1st round picks they had short-term value (cheap assets in a salary cap environment), as well as potential long-term value well past Pronger's.

And, yes, we are a better team now... duh. That's why it puts us in a position to win a Cup.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:35 AM
  #112
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The deal was about winning the Cup now, if you want to get into assessing the value of Sbisa and 1st round picks they had short-term value (cheap assets in a salary cap environment), as well as potential long-term value well past Pronger's.
And, yes, we are a better team now... duh. That's why it puts us in a position to win a Cup.
The part in bold is what people don't seem to or want to understand with respect to managing a team within the cap structure. Then again it seems that those that don't or want to understand usually give Holmgren a free pass for his cap management which has been horrid IMO.

Finally, we keep talking about how winning a cup is a team effort yet people contradict themselves and say Pronger as an individual is more important than a collection of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders who are still developing. Again lots of day traders here....short is the new long apparently.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:44 AM
  #113
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500

Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:45 AM
  #114
sg12lw
Registered User
 
sg12lw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 880
vCash: 500
this thread was started bc people are looking for every reason to hate on homer

if you dont think this trade was worth it, you are dumb

yes, that is indeed a fact

sg12lw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:52 AM
  #115
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
this thread was started bc people are looking for every reason to hate on homer

if you dont think this trade was worth it, you are dumb

yes, that is indeed a fact
Nope..hating on Homer would imply wishing the team ill. Homer critics are not haters they are realists.

If one season is people's frame of reference for judging the ROI of this trade well you are just plain narrow minded.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 10:56 AM
  #116
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
this thread was started bc people are looking for every reason to hate on homer

if you dont think this trade was worth it, you are dumb

yes, that is indeed a fact
Lets be serious, people don't need to look very hard for reasons to dislike Homer... and he's given us another plate full of 'em this offseason.

I actually LIKE the Pronger trade, but I also understand why the deal was made and what the stakes of the deal are. Am I going to crucify Holmgren for that deal if we don't win the Cup? No. However, if we do not win the Cup, then Holmgren will have gambled (with the team's future) and lost.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 01:20 PM
  #117
Andrew Knoll
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Andrew Knoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 2,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1) You don't know that, because you don't know what other moves would have been made.

2) We didn't have a parade, the trade is not a success... yet.



The Leclair and Desjardins trade isn't even remotely comparable. John Leclair was 25 when he came to Philly, and Desjardins was 25 as well. That trade was about changing the team up because the team was a *ing mess before they got there... it was not about "putting us over the top."



Some trades are made with the primary goal of winning the Stanley Cup. Chris Pronger was traded for with the primary goal of winning the Stanley Cup. If we do not win the Stanley Cup, then that trade failed to accomplish its goal. It wasn't about "improving" our team. It wasn't about "winning". It wasn't about having a nice little playoff run.

It was about winning the Stanley Cup.

If you cannot see the difference between trading for Chris Pronger and trading for Ville Leino, then I don't know what to tell you. Holmgre sold the **** out to acquire Chris Pronger. It's that simple. He then signed him to an over-35 contract (a necessity given how much we gave up for him) that could cripple us in the future.
Obviously what you're saying is very simple but you're also making it sound like Pronger was a deadline acquisition, something like the Dallas-Calgary trade with Iginla going the other way. We got him for the long haul now (will likely retire in Philly) and while it looked like a big haul on paper the "jury's still out" part of the deal is more the Anaheim side at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If Holmgren traded that much for 1-year of Pronger he'd be an even bigger moron than I think he is as of now... and I think he's pretty damn stupid. That extension was a NECESSITY to make that deal even remotely make sense.
Yes but the TERMS are what make it questionable, if it were say a 3yr/18M extension (giving us Pronger for a grand total of four contract years) it would be occasion to celebrate without question. As is, we don't know how it will shake out to have him under contract until he is 41 or 42.

Andrew Knoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 04:15 PM
  #118
Fighter
Legend
 
Fighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Trieste, Italy
Country: Italy
Posts: 7,282
vCash: 500
Ducks fan here, how can you think the trade was not worth it?

I liked the return we got for the Pronger deal, don't get me wrong, but Pronger is a proven star who was probably the biggest reason why Philly reached the SCF and was NOT the reason why Philly lost, simply Chicago was the better team.

IMO it's been a win-win situation for both Philly and Anaheim. Too bad for Philly that they just came up short on the big thing.

Fighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 04:24 PM
  #119
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
Obviously what you're saying is very simple but you're also making it sound like Pronger was a deadline acquisition, something like the Dallas-Calgary trade with Iginla going the other way. We got him for the long haul now (will likely retire in Philly) and while it looked like a big haul on paper the "jury's still out" part of the deal is more the Anaheim side at this point.
How am I in any way making it out like a deadline acquisition, by putting it in the terms of the Stanley Cup? Those can be the stakes at any point with a trade. If Holmgren didn't believe that we were close to winning the Cup then the deal he made is completely unjustifiable.

We do not have him for the long haul... we have him in the waning years of his career and the chances are that in the next couple of years we'll begin to see a noticeable decline (already is a decline from his peak years if you ask me).

Quote:
Yes but the TERMS are what make it questionable, if it were say a 3yr/18M extension (giving us Pronger for a grand total of four contract years) it would be occasion to celebrate without question. As is, we don't know how it will shake out to have him under contract until he is 41 or 42.
We have cap problems as is right now, you want to up his cap hit and think that's a good idea? Sure, that's more logical if you treat Pronger in the vacuum. But, again, that trade was about winning the Cup NOW, so you want to lower his cap hit a bit to help facilitate the short term.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 05:25 PM
  #120
Andrew Knoll
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Andrew Knoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 2,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How am I in any way making it out like a deadline acquisition, by putting it in the terms of the Stanley Cup? Those can be the stakes at any point with a trade. If Holmgren didn't believe that we were close to winning the Cup then the deal he made is completely unjustifiable.

We do not have him for the long haul... we have him in the waning years of his career and the chances are that in the next couple of years we'll begin to see a noticeable decline (already is a decline from his peak years if you ask me).



We have cap problems as is right now, you want to up his cap hit and think that's a good idea? Sure, that's more logical if you treat Pronger in the vacuum. But, again, that trade was about winning the Cup NOW, so you want to lower his cap hit a bit to help facilitate the short term.
Because you put it in terms of the Stanley Cup in YEAR ONE, when he will be here for the duration of his career. Is he at the peak production/physique he was at in St Louis when he was winning the Norris and Hart Trophies? No. Is he as effective or more effective than he was in 2007 hoisting a Cup with Anaheim? I believe so, yes.

As for the cap hit, yes, I believe it would have been more logical to have a $6M cap hit for four seasons than a $6.25M for one season and a $5M for SEVEN more, however it's a moot argument because on shorter terms the cap hit would probably have been more like $7M+ which makes it much harder to justify.

Andrew Knoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 05:53 PM
  #121
JLHockeyKnight
IMA Real American
 
JLHockeyKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Central Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,439
vCash: 500
Anyone who thinks this trade wasn't worth it, I have this for you:


JLHockeyKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 06:03 PM
  #122
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,839
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighter View Post
Ducks fan here, how can you think the trade was not worth it?

I liked the return we got for the Pronger deal, don't get me wrong, but Pronger is a proven star who was probably the biggest reason why Philly reached the SCF and was NOT the reason why Philly lost, simply Chicago was the better team.

IMO it's been a win-win situation for both Philly and Anaheim. Too bad for Philly that they just came up short on the big thing.
I agree it's a win-win, this was my favourite season as a Flyers fan because I was able to watch almost every minute of every game, and Pronger was fantastic and made Carle better. I'm hoping he and Kimmo can continue to help Carle, Coburn and whoever else is coming along because they're fantastic players. Not every deal can be one sided and this is one where I think both teams should be happy.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 06:21 PM
  #123
whskybarJM
Registered User
 
whskybarJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: ca
Country: United States
Posts: 920
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Well IMO jury is obviously still out on this trade but the Flyers were 2 wins away from the trade accomplishing it's goal. Nevertheless, the costs are still being tabulated and becoming more clearer. I expect this thread to rise and fall in the upcoming years. With that here was the price thus far:

-Joffrey Lupul (serviceable winger that can net 20 goals per season on Avg)

-Former 1st rounder Luca Sbisa (Good young D man who should be an impact D man for years to come)

-2009 1st rounder (21st overall) John Moore (Projected as a solid D man)
*Pick was traded to Columbus by Anaheim in exhange for 2009 picks Kyle Palmieri (26th overall) and Matthew Clarke (37th overall-2nd round)

-2010 1st Rounder (29th overall) Emerson Etem

-2011 Conditional 3rd round pick to Anaheim (TBD)

Thoughts?
he is one of the major major reasons the flyers even made it to the finals.

whskybarJM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:10 PM
  #124
whatthef
Failure is an Option
 
whatthef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Upper Darby
Country: United States
Posts: 4,612
vCash: 1000
This trade was absolutely worth it. This post season was the best time I've had as a Flyers fan. Obviously I'm still big on winning a cup, but I can already pretty safely say that I'll never be upset about the trade for Progner unless Sbisa and Moore become Hall of Famers or something.

whatthef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2010, 07:25 PM
  #125
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
Because you put it in terms of the Stanley Cup in YEAR ONE, when he will be here for the duration of his career. Is he at the peak production/physique he was at in St Louis when he was winning the Norris and Hart Trophies? No. Is he as effective or more effective than he was in 2007 hoisting a Cup with Anaheim? I believe so, yes.
He wasn't anywhere near the physical force for us last season that he was for Anaheim... not even close.

Quote:
As for the cap hit, yes, I believe it would have been more logical to have a $6M cap hit for four seasons than a $6.25M for one season and a $5M for SEVEN more, however it's a moot argument because on shorter terms the cap hit would probably have been more like $7M+ which makes it much harder to justify.
I agree, but Pronger wasn't going to sign that contract and Holmgren couldn't risk losing him to UFA. Pronger had all the leverage in the world negotiating that contract. For the team's purposes and the immediate concerns of keeping our roster together, that was the ideal contract... it has it's problems, but a 6+ contract has a lot of problems with it, too.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.