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Kaberle, lets just get this over with...2.0

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Old
07-07-2010, 10:18 PM
  #76
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Kaberle for Clowe looks pretty good. Don't know if the Sharks need Kaberle though.

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07-07-2010, 10:22 PM
  #77
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by newoilsburnsclean View Post
Lol from I guy that oversales Kaberle at every turn. values a minor league player for a proven performer how about Kaberle + Bozak for Clowe
I never attempt to sell Kaberle on fanbases other than the Leafs. I merely point out what it would take for teams to get him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Kaberle for Clowe looks pretty good. Don't know if the Sharks need Kaberle though.
Nothing for Ponikarovsky sounds a heck of a lot better.

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07-07-2010, 10:53 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
It's a trolling post...just like the idea of Clowe-for-Kaberle. Clowe may meet the needs of the Leafs, but so does a guy like Alexei Ponikarovsky or Alexander Frolov; and neitehr of them will cost the Leafs Tomas Kaberle. The reality is that Kaberle problably isn't going to get traded, and even if he is, the only team that MIGHT be in a position to give up enough for him without a contracct extension is the Boston Bruins.
Clowe has real and significant value. Mitchell does not. Poni and Frolov meet the needs of a top 6 LW, that doesn't mean they can or will be signed by Burke. Also, both are soft. There are no top 6 power forwards available on the market. That isn't too say that Toronto should make the deal, but you will not get a first line center for him, unless Boston is very foolish. If Toronto can pull that off, they absolutely should.

As for your point of stating what you merely inform teams' fans what it would take to get him, your 'demands' are entirely unrealistic. The only team that might give up a first line player is Boston, all your other proposals aren't even close. Let's say hypothetically (and I admit this is unlikely) Kaberle doesn't want re-sign because he feels the team doesn't want him, and also assume Boston is unwilling to move Savard for him, what are your other options?


Last edited by matt trick: 07-07-2010 at 11:10 PM.
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07-07-2010, 11:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
Clowe has real and significant value. Mitchell does not. Poni and Frolov meet the needs of a top 6 LW, that doesn't mean they can or will be signed by Burke. Also, both are soft. There are no top 6 power forwards available on the market. That isn't too say that Toronto should make the deal, but you will not get a first line center for him, unless Boston is very foolish. If Toronto can pull that off, they absolutely should.
That may be the case, but not to the Leafs; and certainly not until those players are signed elsewhere. While both Ponikarovsky & Frolov are soft, they bring a skill set that is at worst equal, and more likely, better than what Clowe brings; and the salaries they will require will be approximately what Clowe makes (Frolov gets more, but he's signficantly better). Ponikarovsky isn't a true powerforward because he doesn't hit that often/hard, but he fits the profile of what the Leafs need, and for a player of his size, is actually a very good skater. If Burke was prepared to settle for a guy who belongs on a 2nd line LW (like Clowe), he would sign Ponikarovsky way before trading a guy like Kaberle for Clowe.

You can make the case that the Leafs would prefer Clowe, that's not really the issue here. The problem is that there is no way to justify that difference to be Tomas Kaberle, or anything near his value to the Leafs. Sure, Clowe fights a bit and throws the body around, but he's also struggled with injuries, played on a significantly better team with much better talent in the middle. The reality is that to Toronto, the difference between Clowe & Ponikarovsky is problably worth at most a couple prospects (not named Kadri). The reason to not want Ponikarovsky (and why Burke traded him in the first place) is because he's not a top line player and he wasn't interested in committing significant term to a guy who belongs on teh 2nd line. Ponikarovsky is more of a top line player than Clowe.

Should the Sharks trade Clowe for that? No, he's a good fit with their team and they are happy to have him. But, to suggest the Leafs should trade Kaberle because SJ is offering a player who is at best marginally better than a free agent alternative (for a similar contract) is ridiculous. Think of it this way.... do you not see the flaw with the Sharks being able to trade Clowe for Kaberle then sign Alexei Ponikarovsky to replace him? Obviously there is the cap issue for the Sharks, but why on earth would the Leafs trade Kaberle for the price to upgrade from Ponikarovsky to Clowe?

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07-07-2010, 11:19 PM
  #80
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Kabby

I dont know if this was mentioned earlier in Kabby trade discussions since I don't think that I can read through them all

What about:
Tor : Brad Richards
Dallas: Kabby+? Prospect.

Dallas has new ownership and is in dire straits to lose some payroll and get a reasonably priced Dman that they need.
Toronto gets their center and has cap space to accommodate him.Not to mention Toronto's connection with Niewendyk.

Thoughts?

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07-07-2010, 11:38 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
I dont know if this was mentioned earlier in Kabby trade discussions since I don't think that I can read through them all

What about:
Tor : Brad Richards
Dallas: Kabby+? Prospect.

Dallas has new ownership and is in dire straits to lose some payroll and get a reasonably priced Dman that they need.
Toronto gets their center and has cap space to accommodate him.Not to mention Toronto's connection with Niewendyk.

Thoughts?
Toronto can't take on Richards' salary. Pretty much nobody can so he's basically worthless. Yes he scored 90 points this year, but he produced at a 69 point pace over teh 3 previous seasons....

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07-07-2010, 11:41 PM
  #82
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The Leafs can take on Richards salary if they move finger down to the AHL. It would be tight though. Dont forget he is a UFA after this season(Richards).
Finger=3.5
Kabby=4.25
7.75

Richards=7.8

Close.

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07-07-2010, 11:41 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
I dont know if this was mentioned earlier in Kabby trade discussions since I don't think that I can read through them all

What about:
Tor : Brad Richards
Dallas: Kabby+? Prospect.

Dallas has new ownership and is in dire straits to lose some payroll and get a reasonably priced Dman that they need.
Toronto gets their center and has cap space to accommodate him.Not to mention Toronto's connection with Niewendyk.

Thoughts?
If it is Kabs+Grabs for Richards than yes because we don't have enough cap space to fit him in even though we wouldn't be able to get Richards for Kabs and Grabs.

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Old
07-07-2010, 11:56 PM
  #84
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
The Leafs can take on Richards salary if they move finger down to the AHL. It would be tight though. Dont forget he is a UFA after this season(Richards).
Finger=3.5
Kabby=4.25
7.75

Richards=7.8

Close.
Not quite.... that's like saying the B's could take on Richards salary if they moved Savard + Ryder. Finger will have to go regardless, and acquiring Richards would leave no space for a Kaberle replacement or a left wigner.

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07-08-2010, 12:08 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Not quite.... that's like saying the B's could take on Richards salary if they moved Savard + Ryder. Finger will have to go regardless, and acquiring Richards would leave no space for a Kaberle replacement or a left wigner.
They can still move Grabo to wing or make a trade for him for a natural winger(Grabbo sucks in the F/O circle anyways).

Caputi and Irwin havnt made the team and the replacement for Kabby is that there isnt one, he is already signed(Gunnarsson).

Current Capspace with Caputi and Irwin=$1,125,834(This includes Finger 3.5)
Finger Buried=4.625
plus* Kabby traded (4.25)=8.875. +xx player included?

Richards=7.8
Thus 1.075 Cap space after trade, not to mention Grabo is on the books and you have Caputi and Irwin on the Roster and still have space to qualify Hanson.

The problem with this trade really isnt cap space but fair value for Richards.

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Old
07-08-2010, 12:26 AM
  #86
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"what it would take"

Biggest joke of a phrase on HF

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07-08-2010, 12:29 AM
  #87
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
They can still move Grabo to wing or make a trade for him for a natural winger(Grabbo sucks in the F/O circle anyways).

Caputi and Irwin havnt made the team and the replacement for Kabby is that there isnt one, he is already signed(Gunnarsson).

Current Capspace with Caputi and Irwin=$1,125,834(This includes Finger 3.5)
Finger Buried=4.625
plus* Kabby traded (4.25)=8.875. +xx player included?

Richards=7.8
Thus 1.075 Cap space after trade, not to mention Grabo is on the books and you have Caputi and Irwin on the Roster and still have space to qualify Hanson.

The problem with this trade really isnt cap space but fair value for Richards.
Grabovski is a horrible winger....not sure where you're getting your cap space number from... but let's do a little simple math... you propose Richards for Kaberle....lets say Grabo goes in the deal or elsewhere for something (not really important for the purposes of this post)

Leafs Depth Chart:

____ - Richards (7.8) - Kessel (5.4)
Kulemin (2.35) - Bozak (allocation of $1.5) - Versteeg (3.0833)
Sjostrom (.75) - _____ - Armstrong (3)
Brown (.537) - Mitchell (.75) - Orr (1)
Hanson (.75 est)

Phaneuf (6.5) - Beauchemin (3.8)
____ - Komisarek (4.5)
Gunnarsson (.800) - Schenn (allocation of $1.5)
Lebda (1.45)

Giguere (6) - Gustavsson (1.35)
Tucker (1)

Total: $53.8m leaving $5.6m to acquire a top line LW (~3.5m) , 3rd line C (~2m) and top 4 puckmoving defenceman (~2m) while leaving a bit of a cushion for moves during the year / callups. Obviously you could skimp on one of those positions, but at that point you really have to question whether or not trading for Brad Richards is a good idea. This is a player who over a full season, would've had 10 more even strength points than Mikhail Grabovski this year; and a player who in 3/4 seasons averaged a pace of 69 points.

The Leafs would be MUCH better off keeping their puckmover on the blueline + Grabovski at centre, and having a total of $6.2m to acquire a top line LW and 3rd line centre; instead of $5.6m to acquire a top line LW, 3rd line centre, and replacement puckmover. Even if you skimp on the blueline and just sign a .600k 7th defenceman, that's a difference of $1.2m to spread over 2 positions; with a SIGNIFICANTLY better blueline. Conveniently, that extra $1.2m is also the difference between Mikhail Grabovski's cap hit and Marc Savard's...

edit: I'm sure you'll point out that I said the Leafs cannot afford to add Richards. I stand by this, they cannot afford to add Richards and fulfill the needs for their team. Heck, the Blackhawks could add Richards if they wanted to. It would just cost them Toews + Hossa. Fair value for Richards = Nothing, because there isn't a team in this league for whom it would be a good idea to give up anything but bad salary for Brad Richards. He is a great player, but that contract is absolutely ubsurd, and with only 1 year left, there's 0 reason for a team that has traditionally struggled to attract the big name to trade for him.


Last edited by seanlinden: 07-08-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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07-08-2010, 12:37 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Grabovski is a horrible winger....not sure where you're getting your cap space number from... but let's do a little simple math... you propose Richards for Kaberle....

Leafs Depth Chart:

____ - Richards (7.8) - Kessel (5.4)
Kulemin (2.35) - Bozak (allocation of $1.5) - Versteeg (3.0833)
Sjostrom (.75) - _____ - Armstrong (3)
Brown (.537) - Mitchell (.75) - Orr (1)
Hanson (.75 est)

The real reason that Dallas wants to move Richards is that they need to lose the cap because of new ownership.
Phaneuf (6.5) - Beauchemin (3.8)
____ - Komisarek (4.5)
Gunnarsson (.800) - Schenn (allocation of $1.5)
Lebda (1.45)

Giguere (6) - Gustavsson (1.35)
Tucker (1)

Total: $53.8m leaving $5.6m to acquire a top line LW (~3.5m) , 3rd line C (~2m) and top 4 puckmoving defenceman (~2m) while leaving a bit of a cushion for moves during the year / callups. Obviously you could skimp on one of those positions, but at that point you really have to question whether or not trading for Brad Richards is a good idea. This is a player who over a full season, would've had 10 more even strength points than Mikhail Grabovski this year; and a player who in 3/4 seasons averaged a pace of 69 points.

The Leafs would be MUCH better off keeping their puckmover on the blueline + Grabovski at centre, and having a total of $6.2m to acquire a top line LW and 3rd line centre; instead of $5.6m to acquire a top line LW, 3rd line centre, and replacement puckmover. Even if you skimp on the blueline and just sign a .600k 7th defenceman, that's a difference of $1.2m to spread over 2 positions; with a SIGNIFICANTLY better blueline. Conveniently, that extra $1.2m is also the difference between Mikhail Grabovski's cap hit and Marc Savard's...
Cap space numbers were from Capgeek where else
I agree Grabo is a terrible winger but he(hopefully) can get moved.
I think your 3rd line centre is Hanson but I agree you would need 1st line LW. I also agree that they should keep Kabby
The trade was of course postulation.
Your numbers also dont include Kadri, but again I think another year down for him would be good.
Assuming that Bozak is 1 and Grabo 2 then really all they need is a 1st line LW(what Burkie wants really). There are NO UFA that he wants from what I can tell so he needs a trade.
Since they are deep on D it has to be one of the top 4 Dmen that has to go. So maybe Kabby for 1st line LW and not center.


Last edited by Stormcrow: 07-08-2010 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Edit Addendum:
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07-08-2010, 12:41 AM
  #89
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We wouldn't do Setoguchi for Kaberle alone. That's how off your proposal is. Not to mention the picks.

You want a deal for Kaberle? How's this:

Kaberle to Toronto for 6 years, $27 mil ($4.5 mil per), with a NMC because even Burke wants to end all of the HF proposals.

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Old
07-08-2010, 01:05 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Cap space numbers were from Capgeek where else
I agree Grabo is a terrible winger but he(hopefully) can get moved.
I think your 3rd line centre is Hanson but I agree you would need 1st line LW. I also agree that they should keep Kabby
The trade was of course postulation.
Your numbers also dont include Kadri, but again I think another year down for him would be good.
Assuming that Bozak is 1 and Grabo 2 then really all they need is a 1st line LW(what Burkie wants really). There are NO UFA that he wants from what I can tell so he needs a trade.
Since they are deep on D it has to be one of the top 4 Dmen that has to go. So maybe Kabby for 1st line LW and not center.
Capgeek isn't always right; they give you 3 different numbers (somewhich account fo all bonuses to be reached, some which account for no bonuses to be reached). The reality is that you have to account for some bonuses to be reached on a player-by-player basis.

Hanson has done nothing to deserve a lineup spot, nevermind be annointed the team's 3rd line centre.

Like we seem to agree upon, the Leafs need a top line LW; and like I've said in this thread, if the Leafs can get the right one, tehy should have no problem trading Kaberle for him. However, if they can't, they should have no problem keeping Kaberle and signing one of the available UFAs.

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Old
07-08-2010, 09:08 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by stoner View Post
Seto would net us a 1st,2nd and 3rd, so you are saying Kaberle is worth a 1st, two 2nds and two 3rds??? come one man thats just as bad as Couture, we will not cripple our future for one year of a player we already have in Boyle, Leafs fans should not be allowed to make Ryan or Kaberle proposals,PLEAASEE mods? You can give us your 2nd and 3rd and maybe we have a deal...oh wait nevermind

Counter propose Boyle for Kessel, 2nd and 3rd. Watch the blue logic take effect.

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07-08-2010, 10:27 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Turk View Post
Counter propose Boyle for Kessel, 2nd and 3rd. Watch the blue logic take effect.
Sharks wouldn't do it, not because its not worth it, but because scoring is not a problem for this team. It makes zero sense for the Sharks to send out their best defenceman for another forward.

By the way, what is Blue Logic?

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07-08-2010, 10:30 AM
  #93
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The title alone in this thread is worth Fort Knox values of comedy gold.

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07-08-2010, 10:50 AM
  #94
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Sharks wouldn't do it, not because its not worth it, but because scoring is not a problem for this team. It makes zero sense for the Sharks to send out their best defenceman for another forward.

By the way, what is Blue Logic?
He's making the comparison of Boyle to Kaberle so Leaf fans can see it from the other side.

Kaberle for Ryan
Boyle for Kessel

Get it?

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07-08-2010, 10:54 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turk View Post
Counter propose Boyle for Kessel, 2nd and 3rd. Watch the blue logic take effect.

Also, I'd do that deal 5000000 times a week. But Boyle won't be traded, therefore we will have to have 37 year old Boyle with a 6.67 cap hit.

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07-10-2010, 06:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
Also, I'd do that deal 5000000 times a week. But Boyle won't be traded, therefore we will have to have 37 year old Boyle with a 6.67 cap hit.

Sure you would......and the same Leaf fans that want Seto, 2nd, 3rd for Kaberle would call you insane, and in their own special way they'd justify both.

Blue logic.

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07-10-2010, 07:19 PM
  #97
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how about kris russell(he is highly rated upon blue jackets fans?), brassard for kaberle(with extension)?

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07-10-2010, 08:01 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Updated proposals...

(1)
To Toronto:
J.Stoll
W.Simmonds

To Los Angeles:
M.Grabovski
T.Kaberle



(2)
To Toronto:
D.Stafford
M.Mancari
Z.Kassian


To Buffalo:
K.Ryan
T.Kaberle



(3)
To Toronto:
D.Setoguchi
2nd in 2011
3rd in 2011

To San Jose:
T.Kaberle



(4)
To Toronto:
S.Upshall
B.MacLean
N.Ross

To Phoenix:
Jay Rosehill
T.Kaberle


Alright, so I've made some modifications to the original trade proposals, hopefully they are a lil' more acceptable on HF Boards.

Cheers
As far as these trade proposals go, as a leaf fan i only like the first two, as they serve the needs we have on our team. However the last 2 although well thought out won't happen because chances are that kaberle would actually re-sign there are very slim. Burke as been on record in the toronto sun as saying that he disagrees with everyone out there that we need a number one center. Although he may be sticking to his old game of keeping things a secret until he makes a landscape changing move, i firmly believe and agree with him that as young as we are at center that with one more scoring winger, the leafs will be able to flourish. Now all these trade talks are always surrounding the same teams, the kings, the sharks, and now the flyers. Realistically who is willing to move something of value for a puck moving defenseman of kaberles quality. As of right now i don't see the kings meeting burkes asking price, as for the sharks i don't see it happening either. Last on the listed of rumoured interest is the flyers, whom have dug themselves a hole at the moment with the signing of zherdev. If gagne is indeed on the block, which by the way makes no sense for the flyers, why not move a guy like carter, who if gagne is traded will likely be moved to the wing to play with richards and undoubtedly have the same non-impact he has in the past. Anyhow if gagne is on the block what do the leafs have to offer that the flyers would actually want, kaberle? Schenn? Grabo? seeing as how they are already super deep on D, kaberle and schenn aren't gunna be in the package and grabo aint worth enough by himself or even with a young prospect or two so that rules out the flyers. All the rumours of bobby ryan to toronto, common people i know as leaf fans we all like to dream but that has got to be the most far fetched idea out there, we have no draft picks for an offer sheet and unless burke is willing to give up our only top end prospects along with kaberle it just isnt happening.Teams who needed a puck moving defenseman and are seemingly in the market for one at the moment off the top of my head are Columbus, New Jersey, Boston, Florida, and Tampa. Now who out of these teams has anything that we realistically want and could get in a trade. New jersey doesnt really have nothing that i consider of value that they would be willing to part with. If I hear one more rumour bout oh lets trade kaberle for savard, are you kidding me savard is getting to the end of his days and we have done more than enough for boston in the last few years, so yea not a chance. Florida doesn't have much left for us after they traded horton, other than possibly weiss. That leaves us with Columbus and Tampa. Tampa is doing a rebuild under new GM Yzerman and are unlikely to give up any good young talent, so unless burke targets lecavalier, its unlikely to happen. So we have Columbus whose best defenseman is former leaf anton stralman. They would seem to be a suitable trading partner, they arent that far from Toronto only a mere 507 Km (315 miles) and they are rumoured to be shopping a highly touted left winger who has had a few problems in the organization and would fit in nicely on a line with bozak and kessel. The young man im talking about is Nikita Filatov for those that hadnt already guessed. I propose a trade looking like this:

Toronto Gets:
Filatov
4th Round Pick (2011)

Columbus Gets:
Kaberle
Grabovski

This deal seeming works for many reasons.

1. Because of the close vicinity to Toronto even though Columbus plays in the Western Conference, it is highly likely that Kaberle would resign with the jackets, and he would sure look good feeding the puck to a streaking Rick Nash.

2.Kaberle is among the top 10 elite defenseman in the game regardless of what all you leaf haters seem to believe. His stats don't lie, and a puck moving defense like himself compares very nicely to gonchar stats and skill wise, so the jackets get a top end dman to anchor there defense.

3.Toronto although everyone thinks they need a top center actually need another legitimate scoring threat, hence filatov, and the fact that he is the same age as schenn makes him a good fit for the young leafs.

4.Columbus gets rid off a player whom they just dont have enough ice time for and in exchange get a third line center and a top pairing defenseman.

5.On paper it looks like a big win for Columbus but with filatovs talent, in the end it would end up about even.

6.Toronto dumps some cap, and only takes back a minimal amount in return, freeing up more money for burke to make a few more small moves to strengthen the team. This doesnt really affect columbus cause they have the cap room for both kaberle and grabovski.

If burke was to make this deal today i know i for one would be extremely excited, im not a big grabovski fan, but im a huge kaberle fan and as sad as it would be for him to go its time to turn the corner and take youth and the new look leafs and make our way outta the basement.

Our lines would then look as so for the 2010/2011 season:

Forwards:

Filatov-Bozak-Kessel
Kulemin-Kadri-Versteeg
Armstrong-Mitchell-Sjostrom
Brown-Hanson-Orr

Defense:

Phaneuf-Schenn
Komisarek-Beauchimen
Gunnarsson-Lebda
Aulie

Goalies:

Giguere-Gustavsson

Off course finger would either be buried in the minors or traded for a bag of pucks and a hockey stick as well. With a team like this and the trades that burke has made in the recent few months, our pk will be much better and our powerplay will once again be middle of the pack. We will have a loss of a top puck moving defenseman but between gunnarsson and lebda they will be able to make up for enough of the loss of kaberle to make the sting of losing him minor. A legitimate center is still missing is what you are all saying but the bottom line is you dont bring a guy like kadri into the league to play the third line, he is a playmaker and a potential top 6 forward therefore that is where he plays, especially on a burke team. I have no problem with starting the season with bozak and kadri fighting for the number one center roll. The way of the youth is the way to go and the more ice time that they get the better they will be. These are my thoughts on the current situation in Leafs Nation, im interested to hear your input, and please if you dont know what your talking about or are just out to bash teams notably the leafs, dont waste your time commenting. That is all. Lets Go Leafs!!

webdude05@hotmail.com

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