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Riley Nash to Carolina for 46th pick

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06-28-2010, 07:48 PM
  #76
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Apparently it wouldn't have been until the 2012 draft that the Oilers would have received a compensatory draft pick for Nash. Cutting their losses and making the deal to get a good 2nd round pick for him now was essentially a no-brainer. This gives Marincin 2 years to develop and even if he ends up not making the Oilers for whatever reason... Nash wouldn't have been either so it's a good trade.

Go with a new player that hopefully DOES want to play on the Oilers eventually. I'm sure that's a question that was raised in the interviews.

I'd ask every prospect straight up first off... would you want to live in Edmonton for 10 years and play for us?

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06-28-2010, 07:57 PM
  #77
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As I have stated many times I fell out of love with Nash a long time ago. He's an entitled little princess, imo. He hasn't progressed at all over the last 3 years and wants stuff handed to him on a platter because of his draft position. This was a good lesson for the Oilers to learn about NCAA players. If they are going to a crap program, skip them, at least early. Good riddance.

And welcome Marincin!!

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06-28-2010, 11:48 PM
  #78
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Aside from the actual player my concern is how does a club squander a first round pick on any player that never had an interest in playing for your club which is seemingly the case here?

Is this possibly an indication of the lack of due diligence that might have been going on here as little as a few years ago?

Even if it was not that clear whether he wanted to be here or not how tough would it be to ascertain some problems with attitude and desire in this player 3 years ago?

Too many centers? Or didn't want to compete here?

I'd love to see the research that the Oil did on this player before picking him.

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06-29-2010, 12:08 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Aside from the actual player my concern is how does a club squander a first round pick on any player that never had an interest in playing for your club which is seemingly the case here?

Is this possibly an indication of the lack of due diligence that might have been going on here as little as a few years ago?

Even if it was not that clear whether he wanted to be here or not how tough would it be to ascertain some problems with attitude and desire in this player 3 years ago?

Too many centers? Or didn't want to compete here?

I'd love to see the research that the Oil did on this player before picking him.
There could be a lack of due diligence in the interview process. The problem I see with this is that I can't see any agent recommending that their prospect player honestly tell teams that he is not really interested in them.

Obviously, before you are drafted you are uncertain of where you will go and you don't want to close any doors. It's like a job interview; you put your best foot forward in all of them, just in case the worst one is the only offer you get.

In sum, I don't think the Oilers could have really known. They were actually raving about Nash's intelligence markers from their interview, if I recall correctly.


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06-29-2010, 12:19 AM
  #80
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There could be a lack of due diligence in the interview process. The problem I see with this is that I can't see any agent recommending that their prospect player honestly tell teams that he is not really interested in them.

Obviously, before you are drafted you are uncertain of where you will go and you don't want to close any doors. It's like a job interview; you put your best foot forward in all of them, just in case the worst one is the only offer you get.

In sum, I don't think the Oilers could have really known.
Maybe so. But one of the things I've found interesting is how much circumspection the Oilers #1 pick got this year. Of course its a #1 pick and the first one in Oiler history but in my impression this club went from maybe not exercising enough diligence to spending more time on this one consideration than NASA does on a shuttle launch. I can't recall a club ever doing this much analysis for the one pick. Perhaps as it should be but I just wonder if its indicative of a shift in mindset, a realizing that they need to be more studious, more thorough, and not screw it up.

All speculation of course.

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06-29-2010, 12:20 AM
  #81
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Aside from the actual player my concern is how does a club squander a first round pick on any player that never had an interest in playing for your club which is seemingly the case here?

Is this possibly an indication of the lack of due diligence that might have been going on here as little as a few years ago?

Even if it was not that clear whether he wanted to be here or not how tough would it be to ascertain some problems with attitude and desire in this player 3 years ago?

Too many centers? Or didn't want to compete here?

I'd love to see the research that the Oil did on this player before picking him.
Look how good these kids are at the interviews now...they all have interview coaches before the combine so I'm sure it would be pretty easy for people to hide character flaws...you always here of a couple people interviewing bad but for the most the kids seem to say the right things to all the teams

Did you listen to what Stu Macgregor said about him? He said that his camp contacted the Oilers like over a year ago, after both groups relationship wasn't very good, and he said Riley's camp thought the Oilers had too much centre depth...like really? really? if that was the time frame then we hadn't even drafted Lander....and even if we had we have like no centre depth in the future...we can disregard Horcoff b/c Nash after his last year of Cornell + 2 years in the AHL wouldn't even be battling for a spot with Horcoff...so that leaves Gagner, Brule, and Cogs for young centre depth...I'm sorry but if that's their reason (and not just an excuse b/c they don't wanna play here) then this kid is obviously not ready to compete for a job in the NHL...does he think that any other teams are gonna have no centres and he is just gonna walk onto the team and play 2nd line minutes? To me the kid seems content that his development is going downhill and doesn't seem dedicated to playing in the NHL

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06-29-2010, 12:36 AM
  #82
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Look how good these kids are at the interviews now...they all have interview coaches before the combine so I'm sure it would be pretty easy for people to hide character flaws...you always here of a couple people interviewing bad but for the most the kids seem to say the right things to all the teams
I conduct assessments for a living. It isn't all that difficult to note "trying to look good" and to get a gauge on inconsistency and deceit and to devise questions or use psych testing profile instruments that would result in stumbles. This not even considering forensic interviews, and profiling.

Hell any Lawyer here worth his salt could cross examine any of these players at the combine and cause some major foot in mouth syndrome.
This is a Billion buck org in todays huge dollar pro sports. Yet as depicted in the "Oilchange" last week the Oil still conduct interviews with #1 picks with their own personnel and scouts. As if any of them are experts in interviewing. As if a LARGER room of people with studious eyes results in more information. To me it looked blind. They could have 20 people in the room all practicing outside of their competence and it wouldn't matter much. I wonder if they crossreferenced their own conducted interviews with several other contracted interviews and assessments.

An 18 yr old kid alone in a room in an interview is going to stumble a lot if the right interviewing instruments and approaches are used. These were largely feel good interviews depicted in Oilchange. (not saying that is inappropriate in the Hall-Seguin situation but it needs to be far more of an intrusive process when engaging the less than sure thing picks.)

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06-29-2010, 12:44 AM
  #83
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I conduct assessments for a living. It isn't all that difficult to note "trying to look good" and to get a gauge on inconsistency and deceit and to devise questions or use psych testing profile instruments that would result in stumbles. This not even considering forensic interviews, and profiling.

Hell any Lawyer here worth his salt could cross examine any of these players at the combine and cause some major foot in mouth syndrome.
This is a Billion buck org in todays huge dollar pro sports. Yet as depicted in the "Oilchange" last week the Oil still conduct interviews with #1 picks with their own personnel and scouts. As if any of them are experts in interviewing. As if a LARGER room of people with studious eyes results in more information. To me it looked blind. They could have 20 people in the room all practicing outside of their competence and it wouldn't matter much. I wonder if they crossreferenced their own conducted interviews with several other contracted interviews and assessments.

An 18 yr old kid alone in a room in an interview is going to stumble a lot if the right interviewing instruments and approaches are used. These were largely feel good interviews depicted in Oilchange. (not saying that is inappropriate in the Hall-Seguin situation but it needs to be far more of an intrusive process when engaging the less than sure thing picks.)
You put an 18 year old in a room with 2 lawyers, 2 psychiatrists, and the head scout to monitor the answers...and then let the lawyers use cross examining technques and let the psychiatrists ask questions like "which letter in the alphabet resembles you the best?" and have the kids at the combine are going to fail in the interviews...then in first 3 rounds you have to avoid 50 kids because they failed the lawyers cross-examination? A good lawyer could probably convince me I was lying even if I was telling the truth lol

Let's say the kid is a good kid, loves his family, likes hockey, but simply doesn't have the determination to compete for a job in the NHL? Would that come out in the 15 minutes?

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06-29-2010, 01:01 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
You put an 18 year old in a room with 2 lawyers, 2 psychiatrists, and the head scout to monitor the answers...and then let the lawyers use cross examining technques and let the psychiatrists ask questions like "which letter in the alphabet resembles you the best?" and have the kids at the combine are going to fail in the interviews...then in first 3 rounds you have to avoid 50 kids because they failed the lawyers cross-examination? A good lawyer could probably convince me I was lying even if I was telling the truth lol

Of course people get the wrong idea of assessment and like its all Rorschach inkblots or something.
The purpose of the profiling would not be pass or fail as much as offering further insight and information on the actual person. For instance to differentiate things like internal intrinsic motivation vs external motivation from coaches, parents, that push you.
This being just an example but the circumstantial comments often used by scouts are imo looking for something that may or may not be there. They really guess what the kid might be like on the basis of the kid volunteered at the Boys and Girls club. Except they might not know the kid complains about having to do it each time and its strictly window dressing. Hook, line and sinker.
Ascertaining the difference between the internal person's makeup and the outside influences that might make them do certain things is essential. As is differentiating some basic nature vs nurture.

When you draft a kid you're not hiring the parents and every previous coach and teacher. You got the kid. Thats it. When you don't know how to differentiate you end up with a potential Riley Nash situation 3 yrs later. I sincerely doubt the questionable attitude and internal motivation relative deficit just popped up. I bet it was there.


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Let's say the kid is a good kid, loves his family, likes hockey, but simply doesn't have the determination to compete for a job in the NHL? Would that come out in the 15 minutes?
Well it sure shouldn't be 15 mins.
Whats the monetary value of a top pick in todays big business pro sports world? Whats it worth? Millions easily.

Its a huge investment. In most pro sports markets the personnel you carefully choose entirely influence your subsequent sales, revenue, networth. The value could be infinite with the right pick(s).

As they once were.


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Old
06-29-2010, 01:17 AM
  #85
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Of course people get the wrong idea of assessment and like its all Rorschach inkblots or something.
The purpose of the profiling would not be pass or fail as much as offering further insight and information on the actual person. For instance to differentiate things like internal intrinsic motivation vs external motivation from coaches, parents, that push you.
This being just an example but the circumstantial comments often used by scouts are imo looking for something that may or may not be there. They really guess what the kid might be like on the basis of the kid volunteered at the Boys and Girls club. Except they might not know the kid complains about having to do it each time and its strictly window dressing. Hook, line and sinker.
Ascertaining the difference between the internal person's makeup and the outside influences that might make them do certain things is essential. As is differentiating some basic nature vs nurture.

When you draft a kid you're not hiring the parents and every previous coach and teacher. You got the kid. Thats it. When you don't know how to differentiate you end up with a potential Riley Nash situation 3 yrs later. I sincerely doubt the questionable attitude and internal motivation relative deficit just popped up. I bet it was there.


Well it sure shouldn't be 15 mins.
Whats the monetary value of a top pick in todays big business pro sports world? Whats it worth? Millions easily.

Its a huge investment. In most pro sports markets the personnel you carefully choose entirely influence your subsequent sales, revenue, networth. The value could be infinite with the right pick(s).

As they once were.
Well I know the interviews at the combine are only 15 mins lol...and that is usually the only time the team would ever talk face-to-face with a player before the draft...obviously lottery picks are on exception, but in Riley's case those 15 mins were the only test...Stu said he makes all the players due some sort of psych evaluation and questionaire as well over email, but it doesn't like any rigorous evaluation process

Do you think that any team in the NHL does more testing of character than the combine interviews and a team evaluation online? I'm curious to know what other teams do, because if we assume all 30 teams conduct the same level of testing then can we fault the Oilers? In relative terms, it would just seem we got some bad luck...should we expend twice the resources and twice the amount of time than other teams to make sure this never happens?

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06-29-2010, 01:38 AM
  #86
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Pennies on the dollar. One has to know when to dump a bad stock. It is shocking to hear Nash's representative comment about the perception of too many centres in Oil Country. That is either the lamest high school way to say 'I don't like you' or a very troubling fear of competition from a pro hockey prospect.

The Oil salvaged likely their best return beyond deal sweetener in a big deal (which was unlikely). For a smart kid who chose Cornell, he's made some dumb decisions in gambling on his career aspirations as an NHL player. Two and out would have given him some maturation time in college and then on to pro apprenticeship. A tell was not being invited back at 19 to Canada's U20 tryouts.

I like the Marincin pick. Big, strong Euro dman, who is apparently unafraid to compete and improve his game in North America.We've seen a big shift in Oil drafting philosophy in picking CHL kids. Let's hope Nash gets that piece of paper from Cornell because his pro potential and development has stalled out in the pursuit to play with his brother. And anyone afraid to compete for an NHL roster job is better suited to a non-traditional hockey market. Oil flush a bad stock for a potentially good return.

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06-29-2010, 02:12 AM
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Maybe so. But one of the things I've found interesting is how much circumspection the Oilers #1 pick got this year. Of course its a #1 pick and the first one in Oiler history but in my impression this club went from maybe not exercising enough diligence to spending more time on this one consideration than NASA does on a shuttle launch. I can't recall a club ever doing this much analysis for the one pick. Perhaps as it should be but I just wonder if its indicative of a shift in mindset, a realizing that they need to be more studious, more thorough, and not screw it up.

All speculation of course.
In the case of Nash he is not without his fair share of questionable moves

The oilers knew when they drafted him that he was going to school and that was very important to him. Howevere, communication is a two way street and all indications are the advice on his physical aspect or his training plan that the oilers thought would be helpfull. He ignored it. There were rookie camps near to him where he could have went to learn and do stuff and he declined.

Something happened early in this guys development that sent the two parties down a dewad end street

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07-08-2010, 11:59 PM
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At Replacements request, let's carry on the Riley Nash conversation in here. Can someone repost that link, its a decent read.

So Riley Nash leaves Edmonton and officially turns into Riley Cash.

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07-09-2010, 12:07 AM
  #89
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At Replacements request, let's carry on the Riley Nash conversation in here. Can someone repost that link, its a decent read.

So Riley Nash leaves Edmonton and officially turns into Riley Cash.
Thanks.

Here you go:

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...oon_very_soon/

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07-09-2010, 12:33 AM
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The moment TPS let out that article about Nash in the past, I had a hunch he was too over himself. It's unfortunate the 1st rounder was wasted on him.

Whats that loophole for NCAA draftees becoming UFA's? NCAA followed by 1 year of CHL or was it hte reverse?

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07-09-2010, 12:38 AM
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That article gets some facts wrong. If Nash decides to stay one more year, they have more than 30 days to sign him following the end of his NCAA season. They have until August 15, 2011. If they don't sign him by then he doesn't re-enter the draft he becomes a free agent (much like Blake Wheeler).

If he leaves college today, they still have a year to sign him. Similar to the R.J. Umberger situation.

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07-09-2010, 12:40 AM
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The moment TPS let out that article about Nash in the past, I had a hunch he was too over himself. It's unfortunate the 1st rounder was wasted on him.

Whats that loophole for NCAA draftees becoming UFA's? NCAA followed by 1 year of CHL or was it hte reverse?
The Van Ryn loophole? It was being drafted as a college player and then playing a year in the CHL but the last CBA closed it. As of now, it's August 15th of the year you graduate or else.

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