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Old
07-08-2010, 07:51 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whites House View Post
You know, there are a lot more intangibles than points right?

Consistency, effort, APPARENTLY team play (fights with teammates wherever he goes)

I don't want him in the lineup come October.
QFT
exactly why if Burke finds a better alternative this offseason he will no longer be a leaf........ the antithesis of a Burke player

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07-08-2010, 07:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
we're very aware, but we're not taking someone that you want to give up for a good prospect to do it... you'd need to give us Schenn to take Grabovski and no leaf fan would do that...... but then any sane person would know that the Isles would never want Grabovski

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07-08-2010, 07:55 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Whites House View Post
You know, there are a lot more intangibles than points right?

Consistency, effort, APPARENTLY team play (fights with teammates wherever he goes)

I don't want him in the lineup come October.
You do realize that consistency comes with experience; Grabo is one of the hardest working players on the team, and while team play is lacking (not a great passer), he is one of the coach's favourites because of the example he sets when he goes full speed into the corners against players twice his strength. Obviously he doesn't come out with the puck, but he does play fearless.

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07-08-2010, 08:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Woll Smoth View Post
you obviously have trouble with comprehension .... what part of no leaf fan would do that dont you get....? I was trying to get him to see that The Isles wouldnt take Grabovski unless you gave us Schenn to take him.....

what did you go to the same remedial reading classes as zack81 ???? Even most leaf fans cant wait to be rid of Grabovski.....what makes you think we'd want a Malcontent on our roster either

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07-08-2010, 08:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
You do realize that consistency comes with experience; Grabo is one of the hardest working players on the team, and while team play is lacking (not a great passer), he is one of the coach's favourites because of the example he sets when he goes full speed into the corners against players twice his strength. Obviously he doesn't come out with the puck, but he does play fearless.
We're not going to agree on it. I feel his hockey sense is below average, his hands or mind can't always keep up with his feet, and I'm not too high on his attitude from what I've seen.

He's also 26, so if consistent efforts are not there now, I find it harder to believe they will come.

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07-08-2010, 08:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Whites House View Post
We're not going to agree on it. I feel his hockey sense is below average, his hands or mind can't always keep up with his feet, and I'm not too high on his attitude from what I've seen.

He's also 26, so if consistent efforts are not there now, I find it harder to believe they will come.
neither was Montreal and wearing out your welcome on two teams would seem to back up your opinion

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07-08-2010, 08:26 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post


So you propose acquiring a prospect that seems to have some potential, great. Why are we trading our best and most proven centre to do so?


Such is the sorry state of the Leafs. I'd waive Grabo if it were up to me. A good prospect and a Pick? Where do I sign?

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07-08-2010, 08:28 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Whites House View Post
We're not going to agree on it. I feel his hockey sense is below average, his hands or mind can't always keep up with his feet, and I'm not too high on his attitude from what I've seen.

He's also 26, so if consistent efforts are not there now, I find it harder to believe they will come.
There's no debate that his hockey sense is below average; infact it's straight up poor, but there is a difference between consistency and effort. The effort is always there, the consistency is not; but that comes with experience, not age.

I'm not saying Grabo is our solution to a top 6 centre long term, I don't know who is, and neither do you...but right now he's teh most proven option we have. The Leafs have 3 high potential options right now to challenge for 2 spots; we as Leafs fans shouldn't care which of the 2 make it, we should only care that the 2 that make it are hopefully good enough.

Trading the one who is most likley to be good enough makes no sense right now.

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07-08-2010, 08:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
There's no debate that his hockey sense is below average; infact it's straight up poor, but there is a difference between consistency and effort. The effort is always there, the consistency is not; but that comes with experience, not age.

I'm not saying Grabo is our solution to a top 6 centre long term, I don't know who is, and neither do you...but right now he's teh most proven option we have. The Leafs have 3 high potential options right now to challenge for 2 spots; we as Leafs fans shouldn't care which of the 2 make it, we should only care that the 2 that make it are hopefully good enough.

Trading the one who is most likley to be good enough makes no sense right now.
I don't feel the effort is always there. Countless times I wonder..."Oh, Grabovski played tonight?"

I don't think the Islanders would have much interest.

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07-08-2010, 10:14 PM
  #35
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Don't you think the leafs have already given up enough picks for a guy named Kessel?

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07-08-2010, 10:33 PM
  #36
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Don't you think the leafs have already given up enough picks for a guy named Kessel?
Actually the Leafs aren't giving up any picks in this trade proposal. Good try though.

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07-08-2010, 10:34 PM
  #37
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Don't you think the leafs have already given up enough picks for a guy named Kessel?
But 2 is better than 1

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07-09-2010, 02:57 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by avengedsevenfold View Post
Why hurt his developement and trade him to the leafs ?

The most true statement ever!

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07-09-2010, 10:22 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
When a guy is entering his 3rd year in the league? absolutely. It's a lot more realistic than pencilling in 50 points for KAdri.

Much smaller than the expectations in increased production from Wheeler and Kulemin. Both age and experience lead to hockey players development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
There's no debate that his hockey sense is below average; infact it's straight up poor, but there is a difference between consistency and effort. The effort is always there, the consistency is not; but that comes with experience, not age.

I'm not saying Grabo is our solution to a top 6 centre long term, I don't know who is, and neither do you...but right now he's teh most proven option we have. The Leafs have 3 high potential options right now to challenge for 2 spots; we as Leafs fans shouldn't care which of the 2 make it, we should only care that the 2 that make it are hopefully good enough.

Trading the one who is most likley to be good enough makes no sense right now.
I'm just wondering...do you still believe that Grabovski is going to top 55 points this year? I just sort of can't move past this, especially when you acknowledge that he has poor hockey sense.

While 55 points doesn't exactly put you in rarified air as an NHL player, it can be classified as a pretty decent season, and certainly takes some talent and consistency to reach that number. I would be utterly shocked if Grabovsky popped 55 points this year unless Wilson decides to hand him 3-4 PP minutes/night for some reason.

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07-09-2010, 10:36 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
When a guy is entering his 3rd year in the league? absolutely. It's a lot more realistic than pencilling in 50 points for KAdri.
You don't call a player who's career high in points is 48 a 55 point player because you "expect" him to rack up 7 more points. Brian Burke "expected" the Leafs to make the playoffs this past season. It didn't happen, but since he expected them to I guess they're a playoff team, right?

I don't think any team touches Grabovski, to be honest. 2.9 million full of problems. He's raised red flags in both Toronto and Montreal.

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07-09-2010, 10:40 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
you obviously have trouble with comprehension .... what part of no leaf fan would do that dont you get....? I was trying to get him to see that The Isles wouldnt take Grabovski unless you gave us Schenn to take him.....

what did you go to the same remedial reading classes as zack81 ???? Even most leaf fans cant wait to be rid of Grabovski.....what makes you think we'd want a Malcontent on our roster either
i don't get the part where grabovski's value is so low that only by including schenn would the mighty islanders take his horrible contract.

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07-09-2010, 10:50 AM
  #42
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No one wants Grabovski

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07-09-2010, 10:51 AM
  #43
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I'm just wondering...do you still believe that Grabovski is going to top 55 points this year? I just sort of can't move past this, especially when you acknowledge that he has poor hockey sense.

While 55 points doesn't exactly put you in rarified air as an NHL player, it can be classified as a pretty decent season, and certainly takes some talent and consistency to reach that number. I would be utterly shocked if Grabovsky popped 55 points this year unless Wilson decides to hand him 3-4 PP minutes/night for some reason.
Absolutely. If he doesn't get hurt he should have no problem increasing his productivity by 15% at minimum. He's the kind of player who on some nights (when things are going well for him) looks like an 80-point player, and on others is completely and utterly useless. As players gain more experience in the league, they learn what they are and are not capable of and gain more consistency.

There isn't some magical "plateau" that Grabo has to break to go from 48-to-55. It means that he has to turn 1 out of every 7 bad games into a good one. 55 points is a pretty decent season, and 48 points is 15% below that.

Grabo doesn't rely on the PP for his production anyways.

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You don't call a player who's career high in points is 48 a 55 point player because you "expect" him to rack up 7 more points. Brian Burke "expected" the Leafs to make the playoffs this past season. It didn't happen, but since he expected them to I guess they're a playoff team, right?

I don't think any team touches Grabovski, to be honest. 2.9 million full of problems. He's raised red flags in both Toronto and Montreal.
I'm not calling him a 55 point player, I'm saying that he'll likely put up 55 at minimum. He hasn't raised any red flagss in Toronto, only in montreal because he had no opportunity. He's one of the coach's and GM's favourites; and the only reason to trade him is because Toronto has 2 guys with a good chance of being capable 2nd line centres next year (Bozak-Grabo), and nobody for the top line.

Every fanbase needs a whipping boy, in the case of the Leafs, its Grabovski because he had a sophmore slump.

Do you guys believe that Wheeler is going to top out at 45 points just because he didn't improve in his 2nd year of play? I guess Foligno won't improve beyond 32 points (or whatever pace he had this year)?

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07-09-2010, 11:16 AM
  #44
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I'm just wondering...do you still believe that Grabovski is going to top 55 points this year? I just sort of can't move past this, especially when you acknowledge that he has poor hockey sense.

While 55 points doesn't exactly put you in rarified air as an NHL player, it can be classified as a pretty decent season, and certainly takes some talent and consistency to reach that number. I would be utterly shocked if Grabovsky popped 55 points this year unless Wilson decides to hand him 3-4 PP minutes/night for some reason.
You are right, 7 points is an amazing number to make up to get to 55 points. He will have to play 30 minutes a night and play every single second of PP time.

The guy got 48 points in his first full season in the NHL and got 35 points last season missing 25 games. Is it really out of the realm of possibility that he will get better in his third year in the NHL?? I have no idea why he gets such a bad rap from everyone including Leaf fans, but he's not a bad player at all.

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07-09-2010, 11:17 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post

I'm not calling him a 55 point player, I'm saying that he'll likely put up 55 at minimum. He hasn't raised any red flagss in Toronto, only in montreal because he had no opportunity. He's one of the coach's and GM's favourites; and the only reason to trade him is because Toronto has 2 guys with a good chance of being capable 2nd line centres next year (Bozak-Grabo), and nobody for the top line.

Every fanbase needs a whipping boy, in the case of the Leafs, its Grabovski because he had a sophmore slump.

Do you guys believe that Wheeler is going to top out at 45 points just because he didn't improve in his 2nd year of play? I guess Foligno won't improve beyond 32 points (or whatever pace he had this year)?
I think you are having a problem with the concept of "minimum".

While its not unreasonable to hope to see an improvement, it is hardly a lock. At "minimum", Grabovski will put up 35 points. Anyone who trades for him is not getting a player that is guaranteed to put up 55+ points. Any team that trades for him is hoping he does that. That is a big difference in value.

One other thing...Grabovski is 26 years old, and the time for him to show what he is capable of is running out. The other players you mentioned, Foligno 22 and Wheeler 23, still have a couple of years to go until they reach their prime.

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07-09-2010, 11:22 AM
  #46
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I think you are having a problem with the concept of "minimum".

While its not unreasonable to hope to see an improvement, it is hardly a lock. At "minimum", Grabovski will put up 35 points. Anyone who trades for him is not getting a player that is guaranteed to put up 55+ points. Any team that trades for him is hoping he does that. That is a big difference in value.

One other thing...Grabovski is 26 years old, and the time for him to show what he is capable of is running out. The other players you mentioned, Foligno 22 and Wheeler 23, still have a couple of years to go until they reach their prime.
That's because 55 points is the minimum realistic expectation. He's got the talent for 70; but that would require a significant improvement in consistency. 55 would be a minor improvement. He is 26 years old, but his problem isn't the lack of size or skill; it's the consistency and hockey sense. That doesn't improve with age, it improves with experience.

Any team that trades for him, is PROBLABLY going to get 55+ points out of him if he plays a full season. Just like the Leafs trading for Kris Versteeg, we're problably going to get 25+ goals out of him if he plays a full season.

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07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
That's because 55 points is the minimum realistic expectation. He's got the talent for 70; but that would require a significant improvement in consistency. 55 would be a minor improvement. He is 26 years old, but his problem isn't the lack of size or skill; it's the consistency and hockey sense. That doesn't improve with age, it improves with experience.

Any team that trades for him, is PROBLABLY going to get 55+ points out of him if he plays a full season. Just like the Leafs trading for Kris Versteeg, we're problably going to get 25+ goals out of him if he plays a full season.

You just can't make that claim...sorry. It's completely disingenuous to say that he's only had three pro years. He just finished his 4th Professional season in North America, and that was after 3 pro seasons in Russia. Comparing Grabovski's experience to guys like Wheeler and Foligno is totally bunk because those guys are legitimately in their 2nd and 3rd seasons of pro hockey respectively...they were amateurs before that.

Grabovski will be 27 this season and his career high is 48 points. He might get 55 points this season if he gets the right amount of playing time and PP time, but it's completely disingenuous to make the claim that he will PROBABLY hit 55+ points this year if he's healthy...there's nothing to back up that claim.

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07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
  #48
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I was just wondering, what it would take to get Blake Kessel, from the Islanders to the leafs.
Burke is making moves right now to ensure lottery picks for the 2012 and 2013 drafts plus a high second round pick. Once that is all in place, he will pull the trigger on the trade.

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07-09-2010, 11:50 AM
  #49
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You just can't make that claim...sorry. It's completely disingenuous to say that he's only had three pro years. He just finished his 4th Professional season in North America, and that was after 3 pro seasons in Russia. Comparing Grabovski's experience to guys like Wheeler and Foligno is totally bunk because those guys are legitimately in their 2nd and 3rd seasons of pro hockey respectively...they were amateurs before that.

Grabovski will be 27 this season and his career high is 48 points. He might get 55 points this season if he gets the right amount of playing time and PP time, but it's completely disingenuous to make the claim that he will PROBABLY hit 55+ points this year if he's healthy...there's nothing to back up that claim.
So I guess anyone trading for any player has to assume they won't develop???

Grabovski's problem is the lack of experience at the NHL game and the inconsistency. If you actually watched him you would know that instead of looking at age & numbers and assuming that a 15% increase in productivity isn't reasonable.

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07-09-2010, 12:03 PM
  #50
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So I guess anyone trading for any player has to assume they won't develop???

Grabovski's problem is the lack of experience at the NHL game and the inconsistency. If you actually watched him you would know that instead of looking at age & numbers and assuming that a 15% increase in productivity isn't reasonable.
Like a lot of Bruins fans I actually watched about 50+ Leaf games this past season with everything at stake. Ironically, watching him on a regular basis this past season it what has lead me to change my opinion of him. Before this past season, my opinion was largely formulated on a random smattering of games from the previous two seasons and his statistical output from is first season in Toronto. Watching him on a regular basis it's pretty clear to see that the guy has major holes in his game and is largely invisible on a lot of nights.

Sorry, but the whole "you didn't watch him enough" argument just doesn't hold any weight in this particular case...I've watched him plenty. He would have to make some major strides in his development to live up to the "55+ point" moniker that you've so liberally bestowed upon him. Might happen, but I don't think it's anywhere near the foregone conclusion that you want us to believe it is.

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