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07-10-2010, 09:58 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
We're trying to get Andrew Brunette... again.
Heh, Mikko Koivu and I might have to hold down a cartwheeling Worst. Clayton Stoner for 7th defenseman?

I can't discredit Eklund anymore, he's been getting hot lately, he's got a new source.

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07-10-2010, 10:09 AM
  #452
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Heh, Mikko Koivu and I might have to hold down a cartwheeling Worst. Clayton Stoner for 7th defenseman?

I can't discredit Eklund anymore, he's been getting hot lately, he's got a new source.
It's easy for Ek to be hot when he doesn't post his "rumors" until after the deal occurs.

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07-10-2010, 10:41 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
If GM keeps drafting players and they continue to fail then he won't have a job long. So you can tell if a player has it or not and how he will project in the future...has anyone of your prediction come true. Of course it's a hard job. They get paid well for their job for normal people excluding professional athletes salaries. You said blame the player but more players fail than suceed but a GM is supposed have more sucesses than failures. The harder job is to be a sucessful athlete.
I'm not really sure where your point is in all of this, but if you're claiming that a GM should be able to draft more successful NHL players than unsuccessful you are in a different world. But just so you know on the current Preds roster we have Weber, Suter, Rinne, Hornqvist, Wilson, Legwand, Erat, Franson, Tootoo, and Klein who were all drafted by Poile with Blum looking to be ready to make the jump. Geoffrion is on the verge, as are a handful of others. Dumont was a highly undervalued player when he was brought in, and has continued to be near the top of the team in scoring regardless of negative opinions held by many. Joel Ward was a complete unknown when he came in, and he has been a very serviceable player. Marcel Goc was another under-used player Poile saw, brought in, and has turned into a good fit.

Not to mention seeing something in one Barry Trotz, giving him his first opportunity to coach in the NHL on a team that has had to spend between the middle and bottom of the league. That has resulted in five play off appearances since 2004 (and I don't want to hear this crap about no first round wins. YOU get ANY team to the play offs once and you can cry about it). People can hate all they want, but Trotz impressed me last season. The sentiment that was held during the last off season was our roster needed scoring, we wouldn't make the play offs without a big signing, and Poile/Trotz need to be replaced was met with an outstanding season where this offensively anemic team stayed in the middle of the league in scoring. When the team played to the hard-work-defense-first-score-by-committee system we could've beaten anyone.

As far as seeing into the future goes, Poile still hasn't gotten the skill down completely but he's sure trying to fool everybody into thinking he has. I think your beef with him is mostly based on your own imagination.

Anyway, this isn't a GM thread. Have your opinion, but could you at least make it more clear what that opinion actually is and why you have it?


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 07-10-2010 at 11:02 AM. Reason: clarification
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07-10-2010, 12:50 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I'm not really sure where your point is in all of this, but if you're claiming that a GM should be able to draft more successful NHL players than unsuccessful you are in a different world. But just so you know on the current Preds roster we have Weber, Suter, Rinne, Hornqvist, Wilson, Legwand, Erat, Franson, Tootoo, and Klein who were all drafted by Poile with Blum looking to be ready to make the jump. Geoffrion is on the verge, as are a handful of others. Dumont was a highly undervalued player when he was brought in, and has continued to be near the top of the team in scoring regardless of negative opinions held by many. Joel Ward was a complete unknown when he came in, and he has been a very serviceable player. Marcel Goc was another under-used player Poile saw, brought in, and has turned into a good fit.

Not to mention seeing something in one Barry Trotz, giving him his first opportunity to coach in the NHL on a team that has had to spend between the middle and bottom of the league. That has resulted in five play off appearances since 2004 (and I don't want to hear this crap about no first round wins. YOU get ANY team to the play offs once and you can cry about it). People can hate all they want, but Trotz impressed me last season. The sentiment that was held during the last off season was our roster needed scoring, we wouldn't make the play offs without a big signing, and Poile/Trotz need to be replaced was met with an outstanding season where this offensively anemic team stayed in the middle of the league in scoring. When the team played to the hard-work-defense-first-score-by-committee system we could've beaten anyone.

As far as seeing into the future goes, Poile still hasn't gotten the skill down completely but he's sure trying to fool everybody into thinking he has. I think your beef with him is mostly based on your own imagination.

Anyway, this isn't a GM thread. Have your opinion, but could you at least make it more clear what that opinion actually is and why you have it?

The thread was on Erat and Legwand's long term contract and the fact that they haven't lived up to it. When Poile gave out the contracts after the fire sale more or less representing that the Preds were moving forward and still in business. Poile has done an outstanding job considering the financial contraits that he's been under.That doesn't mean he didn't so well with Erat and Legwand. But I asked the question if you can name other good GM's and you didn't answer the question. From all the players you mention only Weber and Suter and Rinne are legit the rest Franson and Klein and Blum and Geoffrion are still question marks. Legwand and Erat and Tootoo no matter how you put it are just average players. Tootoo is less than average. I'm not a Trotz fan. I am a Poile fan. Who knows what other coach would have done different. It seems like your satisfied with just making the playoffs and then losing in the first round.

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07-10-2010, 03:53 PM
  #455
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The thread was on the 'Huge Move' people were hoping for, but if we're talking about the contracts given to Erat and Legwand you could consult one of the many posts 101st has so dutifully written about how, at the time the contracts were negotiated, the money was right for prior production..

I'd say that Legwand and Erat have above-average abilities, and it has shown in the past. Tootoo has played in over 350 NHL games, so even if he's average he's doing better than most players drafted that year. You can't expect anyone to draft a new group of studs every year, and if we did the complaint would turn to "why can't we ever keep our good players/prospects?"

As far as the question about GMs, you posed it to Visqi. Not me. That's why I didn't answer.

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07-10-2010, 04:04 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
It's easy for Ek to be hot when he doesn't post his "rumors" until after the deal occurs.

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07-10-2010, 04:25 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
The thread was on the 'Huge Move' people were hoping for, but if we're talking about the contracts given to Erat and Legwand you could consult one of the many posts 101st has so dutifully written about how, at the time the contracts were negotiated, the money was right for prior production..

I'd say that Legwand and Erat have above-average abilities, and it has shown in the past. Tootoo has played in over 350 NHL games, so even if he's average he's doing better than most players drafted that year. You can't expect anyone to draft a new group of studs every year, and if we did the complaint would turn to "why can't we ever keep our good players/prospects?"

As far as the question about GMs, you posed it to Visqi. Not me. That's why I didn't answer.
The Thread is a "Huge Move" but a variety of topics are discussed in the topic and that is how we got around to discussing the GM. Whatever you say about Legwand and Erat they haven't performed to their salary whether is what right at the time or not. You can't have your top salary players under performing. You can't them just above average. They have to suceed beyond their salary. Tootoo is a waste on this team and his salary doesn't equal what he supposed to bring. He is only here for his popularity.

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07-11-2010, 10:58 AM
  #458
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I think players should be expected to meet expectations. Exceeding them simply means you're getting a bargain, so in that I can agree that the Predators should WANT a player to play above and beyond the money being paid to him. It being a necessity is where I stop agreeing.

When discussing contracts given to Legwand and Erat you see the outcome of the classic battle between a GM and a player/agent. The player/agent wants past production to be a biggest factor in a contract. (Player X has already done this for you at X dollars so now he is worth X.) The GM wants projected production to be a biggest factor. (Player X did this before but can he do X next season and beyond?) I think David Poile did what he had to do. Legwand and Erat, like it or not, were solid core players and still are. You'd prefer the highest paid players be the highest producing, but in order to judge the job Poile has done you also have to consider production gained from players not making much at all. He retained two guys he felt helped the core of the team the most. He did his job. Legwand actually did his last season, too. If Trotz wanted more goals from David he should've used him in a more two-way role than he did. Instead, Leggy was used in almost a pure shutdown role, and he played brilliantly in that position. Erat needs to shoot the puck more, and that's his own responsibility. It's easy to judge when you have the ability to refer to hindsight, but it's much harder to predict.

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07-11-2010, 01:09 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I think players should be expected to meet expectations. Exceeding them simply means you're getting a bargain, so in that I can agree that the Predators should WANT a player to play above and beyond the money being paid to him. It being a necessity is where I stop agreeing.

When discussing contracts given to Legwand and Erat you see the outcome of the classic battle between a GM and a player/agent. The player/agent wants past production to be a biggest factor in a contract. (Player X has already done this for you at X dollars so now he is worth X.) The GM wants projected production to be a biggest factor. (Player X did this before but can he do X next season and beyond?) I think David Poile did what he had to do. Legwand and Erat, like it or not, were solid core players and still are. You'd prefer the highest paid players be the highest producing, but in order to judge the job Poile has done you also have to consider production gained from players not making much at all. He retained two guys he felt helped the core of the team the most. He did his job. Legwand actually did his last season, too. If Trotz wanted more goals from David he should've used him in a more two-way role than he did. Instead, Leggy was used in almost a pure shutdown role, and he played brilliantly in that position. Erat needs to shoot the puck more, and that's his own responsibility. It's easy to judge when you have the ability to refer to hindsight, but it's much harder to predict.
You can't expect to suceed unless your highest paid players play or exceed their value period. You can make all kinds of excuses but the bottome line is they have to perform. After evaluating the Legwand when drafting they took the best player available in a bad draft class. The extention was as turned out didn't do so well. Legwand is not capable of being a big scorer anymore. At this stage of their careers and their age if they( Legwand and Erat) don't get by now they aren't going to. Legwand is what he is a checking line center. Trotz has tried to put him on scoring lines but he doesn't work with other linemates. If you except mediocrity then Legwand is your guy.

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07-11-2010, 01:15 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by roseyc View Post
You can't expect to exceed unless your highest players play or exceed their value period. You can make all kinds of excuses but the bottome line is they have to perform. After evaluating the Legwand when drafting they took the best player available in a bad draft class. The extention was as turned out didn't do so well. Legwand is not capable of being a big scorer anymore. At this stage of their careers and their age if they( Legwand and Erat) don't get by now they aren't going to. Legwand is what he is a checking line center. Trotz has tried to put him on scoring line but he doesn't work with other linemates. If you except mediocrity then Legwand is your guy.
except - with the exclusion or exception of (courtesy of Merriam Webster) .... so by your admission, if he wants to exclude mediocrity then Legwand is his guy.

For a guy who doesn't work on a scoring line, he was the team's leading scorer in the playoffs.


Last edited by BigFatCat999: 07-11-2010 at 01:20 PM. Reason: You made your point, no need to attack the person.
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07-11-2010, 04:21 PM
  #461
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I'm pretty sure I said "players should be expected to meet expectations." That's why they are expectations. I'm not making excuses. I'm attempting to explain the reality of the situation, but it doesn't seem to be working.

(edit: I think this thread has served its purpose and then some.)

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07-11-2010, 09:56 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
except - with the exclusion or exception of (courtesy of Merriam Webster) .... so by your admission, if he wants to exclude mediocrity then Legwand is his guy.

For a guy who doesn't work on a scoring line, he was the team's leading scorer in the playoffs.
In the playoffs it's usually the unsung player that does well which isn't really an indicator of the player's talent or ability. It's more or less luck and the playing on the third line you don't get the team's best defensive pairings. But something overlooked is that he lost the puck in game 2 that led to Kane scoring.
The Preds will never win in the playoffs with Legwand. He is the albatross of this franchise They can't move on from him. Instead of building the team around him they should build the team without him. All the Legwand lovers says he is one of the best defensive center in the league. I've never heard anyone on other hockey sites speak of Legwand in those terms. He has never won the Selke. I've never heard of him even being nominated. If you look at his career numbers (13-2000-01, 13-01-02,11-02-03,17-03-04, 18-04-05, strike-05-06, 27-06-07,15-07-08,20-08-09,11-09-10.Since Kariya left Legwand has scored 15 -20-11 goals. That one year appears to be fluke. When this team scrapes for every dollar they can't afford for their top salaried center to put up those kinds of numbers. The one year he scored But we are stuck with him for 4 more years. If he was a FA this year his value would be for 3ml and I'm being somewhat generous considering his age for being a checking line center.


Last edited by roseyc: 07-11-2010 at 10:13 PM.
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07-12-2010, 01:25 AM
  #463
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In the playoffs it's usually the unsung player that does well which isn't really an indicator of the player's talent or ability. It's more or less luck and the playing on the third line you don't get the team's best defensive pairings. But something overlooked is that he lost the puck in game 2 that led to Kane scoring.
The Preds will never win in the playoffs with Legwand. He is the albatross of this franchise They can't move on from him. Instead of building the team around him they should build the team without him. All the Legwand lovers says he is one of the best defensive center in the league. I've never heard anyone on other hockey sites speak of Legwand in those terms. He has never won the Selke. I've never heard of him even being nominated. If you look at his career numbers (13-2000-01, 13-01-02,11-02-03,17-03-04, 18-04-05, strike-05-06, 27-06-07,15-07-08,20-08-09,11-09-10.Since Kariya left Legwand has scored 15 -20-11 goals. That one year appears to be fluke. When this team scrapes for every dollar they can't afford for their top salaried center to put up those kinds of numbers. The one year he scored But we are stuck with him for 4 more years. If he was a FA this year his value would be for 3ml and I'm being somewhat generous considering his age for being a checking line center.
All you seem to look at is his goals scored. If that's the measure of a player, we are in trouble as a franchise. We had two guys break 20 goals last year. Of the vets with big salaries, only Erat had more than 20 yet you rip on Legwand only? What about the lack of production from Arnott, Sully and Dumont? They get a pass too?

Here's one stat you miss, what is our record with Legwand in the lineup and with him out of it? I don't have the exact numbers but others have posted it around here in the past and we're a better team with him on the ice then with him sitting out.

There are a few guys on this team that makes us go. Weber, Rinne, Suter, Legwand, Sully and last year we added Hornqvist to that bunch. If we take anyone of these guys out of the lineup for any stretch of time, we are not as effective as a team. Bash Poile and Legwand for the money that he gets but at the end of the day, I'll take a guy that comes to play every night, does what is asked of him by the coaching staff and does it in a professional way without complaining or dividing the locker room. There's a lot to be said about that.

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Old
07-12-2010, 05:00 AM
  #464
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No Selke? That ends it! Neither Weber nor Suter have been nominated for a Norris so they aren't very good defensemen either. Rinne isn't good until the Vezina comes his way...

He's still a ridiculously good defensive centerman and a good two-way forward. I don't think anyone ever claimed he was one of the best.

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07-12-2010, 09:37 AM
  #465
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This thread has served it's purpose. Closing it down now.

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