Man, I don't know if this is fully hitting me till now, kind of like the Pronger thing when I fully didn't appreciate it until he was on the ice.
We signed Zherdev, Coburn, and Shelley at the expense of Simon Gagne, the one constant in our franchise for the last decade, a guy that's always been loyal, has been a PO warrior for us over the years, who did everything we ever asked of him.
This just blows.
if we win a cup while gagne is still playing, one of my first thought will be "but what about simon?"
Man, I don't know if this is fully hitting me till now, kind of like the Pronger thing when I fully didn't appreciate it until he was on the ice.
We signed Zherdev, Coburn, and Shelley at the expense of Simon Gagne, the one constant in our franchise for the last decade, a guy that's always been loyal, has been a PO warrior for us over the years, who did everything we ever asked of him.
Holmgren is either A) the idiot who put together a team that was a shootout goal away from not making the playoffs, or B) someone who rode the coat tails of a great playoff run to being 1 goal away from game 7 in the Stanley Cup.
I don't think that 3/4's of the Board wants to give him much credit for anything. Personally. I think going from being the worst team in the league three years ago to being one of the 3 or 4 best is pretty good managing.
If you believe "A" then the team needs to work on some issues so adding another "D" and shaking up the forwards makes sense, if you believe "B" then making few changes makes sense.
I think the answer is more something else and I think the answer is that the organization identified things it thought it needed and did these things. I don't think they all worked out - Hamhuis, goalies not taking what management thought they were worth, probably other things, but it looks to me that the Flyers wanted to get bigger, deeper and tougher.
I guess we will all find out when the season begins/ But I think right now, except dealing Gagne or Carle for cap space, these are your 2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers.
I'm a little confused about how this doesn't fit Yzerman's MO. Gagne is definitely an Yzerman player. I understand the slow and careful rebuild, but Gagne is definitely the kind of player Yzerman would go after if he went after anyone.
You're absolutely right, Chris, that Gagne is after Yzerman's own heart and talents as a two-way forward who can put up points. I meant that the last year of a hefty contract doesn't seem to jive with Yzerman's slow-and-steady, youthful approach.
I remember this guy as a Jacket. He wants to do things his way, and if he can't he gets mad. Several times as a Jacket he didn't show up for practice, because he had better things to do like going to the beach or shopping. This is why he can't stay with a team for more than a season or two despite being a good player.
Good luck with him, maybe your coach can tell him who's the boss.
...what are you talking about? Gagne has always been my favorite Flyer, but the full impact of dumping him so we can keep Shelley and Leighton is hitting me pretty hard.
...what are you talking about? Gagne has always been my favorite Flyer, but the full impact of dumping him so we can keep Shelley and Leighton is hitting me pretty hard.
I wasn't feeling an appropriate sense of outrage from you. Now I am.
I remember this guy as a Jacket. He wants to do things his way, and if he can't he gets mad. Several times as a Jacket he didn't show up for practice, because he had better things to do like going to the beach or shopping. This is why he can't stay with a team for more than a season or two despite being a good player.
Good luck with him, maybe your coach can tell him who's the boss.
So you're saying he won't be a reason to frequent our boards?
I remember this guy as a Jacket. He wants to do things his way, and if he can't he gets mad. Several times as a Jacket he didn't show up for practice, because he had better things to do like going to the beach or shopping. This is why he can't stay with a team for more than a season or two despite being a good player.
Good luck with him, maybe your coach can tell him who's the boss.
Holmgren is either A) the idiot who put together a team that was a shootout goal away from not making the playoffs, or B) someone who rode the coat tails of a great playoff run to being 1 goal away from game 7 in the Stanley Cup.
I don't think that 3/4's of the Board wants to give him much credit for anything. Personally. I think going from being the worst team in the league three years ago to being one of the 3 or 4 best is pretty good managing.
If you believe "A" then the team needs to work on some issues so adding another "D" and shaking up the forwards makes sense, if you believe "B" then making few changes makes sense.
I think the answer is more something else and I think the answer is that the organization identified things it thought it needed and did these things. I don't think they all worked out - Hamhuis, goalies not taking what management thought they were worth, probably other things, but it looks to me that the Flyers wanted to get bigger, deeper and tougher. I guess we will all find out when the season begins/ But I think right now, except dealing Gagne or Carle for cap space, these are your 2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers.
Waiting until the season starts before passing judgment? That's crazy enough that it might just work!
I've been reading these offseason comments with a few chuckles and some outright laugh out loud reactions. I've been a Flyers fan since the 1973-74 season (I turned 8 in Feb. 1974). I've seen MacLeish get traded. I've seen Leach dispatched. Propp, Poulin, Kerr, Howe, Brind'Amour, etc. - all of them wearing a "foreign" sweater after sweating through their glory years in the exalted orange and black. The same goes for the many popular Phillies and Eagles players (Dawkins anyone?). There is one immutable truth to surviving that long as a Philly fan which some other long-time rooters may share: you cheer for the uniform, not the players wearing it.
Favorite and "loyal" players get traded, cut, demoted, etc. all the time, with every team, in every sport. The ownership and management may owe loyalty to players in your eyes, but first and foremost, they owe their primary loyalty to the fans via the success of the team. That loyalty may manifest itself in divesting the talents of popular players to either strengthen the team in the present or future - or both. Gagne just may be the one player on this roster with enough return value to help today's club and tomorrow's. Are questionable moves made? Certainly. I still don't get the reasoning behind signing Shelley (especially at $1.1 MM), but I am sure Holmgren did not do it to intentionally weaken the club or because of blatant stupidity. He has his reasons (with input from Laviolette, assuredly). I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt he is managing in a vacuum.
Believe me, I understand the hair-pulling from those worried about loyalty and the removal of favorite players, but as for me, I cheered hard against Brian Dawkins when the Broncos played the Eagles. I'd want Cliff Lee to get get rocked if he faced the Phillies and I will be hoping for a nice clean up-ender body check on Gagne should he be wearing another team's sweater when he plays the Flyers. Hell, I rooted for the pathetic Guido Merkins when he quarterbacked the 1987 Eagles strike squad. It's the uniform. Players come and go throughout the years. Some of us are lucky enough to have cheered for players who played their whole careers for Philly teams (Clarke, Barber, Schmidt, to name a few), but that is not the reality in today's sports landscape.
The sky isn't falling, folks. The Flyers have been very successful in two of the past three years and they return basically the same club next year, albeit with a stronger blue line - and the offseason still has a ways to go before the final roster is set. Holmgren is not ruining this team. They'll be under the cap by the drop of the puck, maybe with another goalie, maybe not; with Gagne or without. You have to let this shake out and see what's what when September rolls around before making declarative statements that do not reflect what the finished product looks like.
If Gagne's gone, it's a shame, because I enjoyed his tenure here, but if it makes the team better in both the long and short run (opening cap room for a possible trade deadline deal, his last season under contract, viable injury/concussion concerns, signing younger players to new deals, etc.), I'm all for it.
Waiting until the season starts before passing judgment? That's crazy enough that it might just work!
I've been reading these offseason comments with a few chuckles and some outright laugh out loud reactions. I've been a Flyers fan since the 1973-74 season (I turned 8 in Feb. 1974). I've seen MacLeish get traded. I've seen Leach dispatched. Propp, Poulin, Kerr, Howe, Brind'Amour, etc. - all of them wearing a "foreign" sweater after sweating through their glory years in the exalted orange and black. The same goes for the many popular Phillies and Eagles players (Dawkins anyone?). There is one immutable truth to surviving that long as a Philly fan which some other long-time rooters may share: you cheer for the uniform, not the players wearing it.
Favorite and "loyal" players get traded, cut, demoted, etc. all the time, with every team, in every sport. The ownership and management may owe loyalty to players in your eyes, but first and foremost, they owe their primary loyalty to the fans via the success of the team. That loyalty may manifest itself in divesting the talents of popular players to either strengthen the team in the present or future - or both. Gagne just may be the one player on this roster with enough return value to help today's club and tomorrow's. Are questionable moves made? Certainly. I still don't get the reasoning behind signing Shelley (especially at $1.1 MM), but I am sure Holmgren did not do it to intentionally weaken the club or because of blatant stupidity. He has his reasons (with input from Laviolette, assuredly). I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt he is managing in a vacuum.
Believe me, I understand the hair-pulling from those worried about loyalty and the removal of favorite players, but as for me, I cheered hard against Brian Dawkins when the Broncos played the Eagles. I'd want Cliff Lee to get get rocked if he faced the Phillies and I will be hoping for a nice clean up-ender body check on Gagne should he be wearing another team's sweater when he plays the Flyers. Hell, I rooted for the pathetic Guido Merkins when he quarterbacked the 1987 Eagles strike squad. It's the uniform. Players come and go throughout the years. Some of us are lucky enough to have cheered for players who played their whole careers for Philly teams (Clarke, Barber, Schmidt, to name a few), but that is not the reality in today's sports landscape.
The sky isn't falling, folks. The Flyers have been very successful in two of the past three years and they return basically the same club next year, albeit with a stronger blue line - and the offseason still has a ways to go before the final roster is set. Holmgren is not ruining this team. They'll be under the cap by the drop of the puck, maybe with another goalie, maybe not; with Gagne or without. You have to let this shake out and see what's what when September rolls around before making declarative statements that do not reflect what the finished product looks like.
If Gagne's gone, it's a shame, because I enjoyed his tenure here, but if it makes the team better in both the long and short run (opening cap room for a possible trade deadline deal, his last season under contract, viable injury/concussion concerns, signing younger players to new deals, etc.), I'm all for it.
Flame away.
damn you and your level-headed loquaciousness. don't try to use logic on these boards!
i will be working towards your thoughts on the matter, but as of now, i'm still all
Waiting until the season starts before passing judgment? That's crazy enough that it might just work!
I've been reading these offseason comments with a few chuckles and some outright laugh out loud reactions. I've been a Flyers fan since the 1973-74 season (I turned 8 in Feb. 1974). I've seen MacLeish get traded. I've seen Leach dispatched. Propp, Poulin, Kerr, Howe, Brind'Amour, etc. - all of them wearing a "foreign" sweater after sweating through their glory years in the exalted orange and black. The same goes for the many popular Phillies and Eagles players (Dawkins anyone?). There is one immutable truth to surviving that long as a Philly fan which some other long-time rooters may share: you cheer for the uniform, not the players wearing it.
Favorite and "loyal" players get traded, cut, demoted, etc. all the time, with every team, in every sport. The ownership and management may owe loyalty to players in your eyes, but first and foremost, they owe their primary loyalty to the fans via the success of the team. That loyalty may manifest itself in divesting the talents of popular players to either strengthen the team in the present or future - or both. Gagne just may be the one player on this roster with enough return value to help today's club and tomorrow's. Are questionable moves made? Certainly. I still don't get the reasoning behind signing Shelley (especially at $1.1 MM), but I am sure Holmgren did not do it to intentionally weaken the club or because of blatant stupidity. He has his reasons (with input from Laviolette, assuredly). I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt he is managing in a vacuum.
Believe me, I understand the hair-pulling from those worried about loyalty and the removal of favorite players, but as for me, I cheered hard against Brian Dawkins when the Broncos played the Eagles. I'd want Cliff Lee to get get rocked if he faced the Phillies and I will be hoping for a nice clean up-ender body check on Gagne should he be wearing another team's sweater when he plays the Flyers. Hell, I rooted for the pathetic Guido Merkins when he quarterbacked the 1987 Eagles strike squad. It's the uniform. Players come and go throughout the years. Some of us are lucky enough to have cheered for players who played their whole careers for Philly teams (Clarke, Barber, Schmidt, to name a few), but that is not the reality in today's sports landscape.
The sky isn't falling, folks. The Flyers have been very successful in two of the past three years and they return basically the same club next year, albeit with a stronger blue line - and the offseason still has a ways to go before the final roster is set. Holmgren is not ruining this team. They'll be under the cap by the drop of the puck, maybe with another goalie, maybe not; with Gagne or without. You have to let this shake out and see what's what when September rolls around before making declarative statements that do not reflect what the finished product looks like.
If Gagne's gone, it's a shame, because I enjoyed his tenure here, but if it makes the team better in both the long and short run (opening cap room for a possible trade deadline deal, his last season under contract, viable injury/concussion concerns, signing younger players to new deals, etc.), I'm all for it.
Flame away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyCurt12
damn you and your level-headed loquaciousness. don't try to use logic on these boards!
i will be working towards your thoughts on the matter, but as of now, i'm still all
See, what you people don't seem to realize or care about is that we didn't have to trade Gagne going into the off-season. Homer screwed up severely and that's why we have to trade Gagne or some other player.
See, what you people don't seem to realize or care about is that we didn't have to trade Gagne going into the off-season. Homer screwed up severely and that's why we have to trade Gagne or some other player.
"We people" understand perfectly well, thank you. What YOU do not seem to comprehend is that Gagne is a valuable trading asset regardless if Holmgren made the moves he did. The plan may have been to move Gagne all along and not an "Oops, guess we have to trade Gagne now" scenario, as you think it is.
I like Gagne, but Gagne is not the Flyers to me. To many people, he IS the Flyers in the sense he has been there from the "beginning" for many younger fans.
"We people" understand perfectly well, thank you. What YOU do not seem to comprehend is that Gagne is a valuable trading asset regardless if Holmgren made the moves he did. The plan may have been to move Gagne all along and not an "Oops, guess we have to trade Gagne now" scenario, as you think it is.
I like Gagne, but Gagne is not the Flyers to me. To many people, he IS the Flyers in the sense he has been there from the "beginning" for many younger fans.
I think you're right, Holmgren hinted at there being some personnel movement coming up this off-season back in March. I just don't get why Gagne was the guy they wanted to move.
I think you're right, Holmgren hinted at there being some personnel movement coming up this off-season back in March. I just don't get why Gagne was the guy they wanted to move.
Guys where did this myth about Gagne's drop of production come from?
He had a bad regular season but he was scoring about a 36 goal pace in the playoffs and in the 08-09 season he had 74 points in 79 games. Yea you guys are right drop in production all right.
