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Old
07-10-2010, 06:40 PM
  #351
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Injury history, drop in production, age, salary.
He's had one significant bodily injury in the last 5 years. His production this year was bad, because he was playing through an injury, then when he rested over the Olympics and came back he was on fire. He clearly can still score at a formidable pace.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that's a stupid reason.

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07-10-2010, 06:41 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I think you're right, Holmgren hinted at there being some personnel movement coming up this off-season back in March. I just don't get why Gagne was the guy they wanted to move.
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Injury history, drop in production, age, salary.
If indeed it was Holmgren's plan to move Gagne this offseason, I wonder if his foot injury in the playoffs and concussion history has tempered the interest in him, thus making it more difficult to move him. He had an heroic return against Boston and scored in the first three games of the Conference Finals, but he had only two goals (one power play goal) in the remaining eight games of the playoffs, no assists and was a -6 (-8 versus Chicago).

Perhaps the hesitation of other GMs regarding his past and recent injuries has prevented his already being moved. Acquiring a 30-year old asset with his injury history at $5 Million+ with one year left on his contract would require more intensive due diligence and therefore drive down the asking price. Maybe that is the reason he has not already been traded. It's just a theory.

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07-10-2010, 06:41 PM
  #353
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I really don't believe that Nik can come here and take a shift off especially with Richards and Pronger wearing letters and Laviolette behind the bench.

If he does do it. I can see him being traded or waived. I am willing to give him an opportunity to come here and prove me wrong... what choice do I have.

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07-10-2010, 06:49 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Injury history, drop in production, age, salary.
UFA status.

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07-10-2010, 06:53 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by xchrisx159 View Post
Guys where did this myth about Gagne's drop of production come from?
He had a bad regular season but he was scoring about a 36 goal pace in the playoffs and in the 08-09 season he had 74 points in 79 games. Yea you guys are right drop in production all right.
How is his drop in production a myth? Hes turning 31 this season, his play has never gotten close to the 2005-2007 results, and hes gone through numerous major injuries. The drop in production isn't a myth, its already started, and will continue to go down hill.

Also thats great he had a 79 point season in 2008-2009, but that was a two years, a hernia, and broken foot ago.

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07-10-2010, 06:54 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
He's had one significant bodily injury in the last 5 years. His production this year was bad, because he was playing through an injury, then when he rested over the Olympics and came back he was on fire. He clearly can still score at a formidable pace.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that's a stupid reason.
There is some statistical evidence that baseball free agents that resign with their original club outperform free agents that change teams, The theory is that there is informational asymmetry, that is the players team choose not to keep have issues that only their current team knows.

Could that possibly be the case with Gagne? Could it be that the Flyers have information that makes them think he's too big a risk that we or other teams don't have.

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07-10-2010, 06:58 PM
  #357
Kermit the Prog
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I really don't believe that Nik can come here and take a shift off especially with Richards and Pronger wearing letters and Laviolette behind the bench.

If he does do it. I can see him being traded or waived. I am willing to give him an opportunity to come here and prove me wrong... what choice do I have.
This is where the rubber hits the road. The milk has been spilled. All the "what ifs" in the world won't change that. Some alleged head cases have thrived in certain environments while others have not. We'll just have to wait and see. As you pointed out, we have no choice either way.

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07-10-2010, 08:01 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Kermit the Prog View Post
"We people" understand perfectly well, thank you.
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What YOU do not seem to comprehend is that Gagne is a valuable trading asset regardless if Holmgren made the moves he did.
No, I understand that perfectly fine. You know who else is a valuable trading asset? Carter. Richards. Giroux. JVR. Pretty much any other productive player on our team. I'm not sure what kind of point you can make by saying that Gagne has trade value.

Quote:
The plan may have been to move Gagne all along and not an "Oops, guess we have to trade Gagne now" scenario, as you think it is.
I never said that Homer may or may not have planned it, did I? I said, he screwed up. The act of ****ing up isn't necessarily unintentional.

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I like Gagne, but Gagne is not the Flyers to me. To many people, he IS the Flyers in the sense he has been there from the "beginning" for many younger fans.
He's been a life-time Flyer and players like that generally get treated a bit better.

Regardless, he ****ed up and getting rid of Gagne makes us considerably worse. Which isn't acceptable considering that the team is in a "win-now" mode with a short window of opportunity at the Cup most likely.

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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Injury history, drop in production, age, salary.
1) The injury history thing has been proven to be a myth time-and-time again.

I swear, some people just parrot what they hear. If you look over Gagne's injury history, there's no indication that he's an injury-prone player.

2) He's actually had better production post-lockout then pre-lockout. If there's been any drop in production then it's a marginal drop. He's still a 30-goal, 70-point, two-way player in a full season. That's first-line winger material.

3) Age? He's fricking 30. The earliest reasonable age to expect his prime to end, is 33. Many players are still able to be productive even beyond that. Briere, our best playoff performer, is 32. Should we trade that old, washed-up, injury-prone player too?

4) His salary is perfectly reasonable for what he brings. He's our best winger and a life-time Flyer. Hartnell, Briere, Meszaros, and Carle are all guys who are more expendable then Gagne (although Briere might be arguable).

Even if you think he makes too much, he comes off the books after this season. He was making perfectly acceptable money for his production, there are several players more expendable then him, and he comes off the books after this season. So, before Homer totally ****ed up our cap, his salary was no problem in absolutely no way, shape, or form.

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07-10-2010, 08:09 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You are saying he did not blow ass? Look, a 20 game PO run doesn't really erase 160 games of suck and even during the PO run, it's not like 4 points and a -2 rating in 23 games is a massive performance.

We are paying 3.2 mill for a guy who doesn't chip in much offensively and was the worst defensive d-man on the team this past year outside of Bartulis and Krajicek.

Sure I hope he turns it around, but at this point in time, giving him that deal, particularly when we already have two other overpaid d-men who can't be trusted to anchor a pairing, was absolutely ludicrous.
He had more than a 20 game PO run. Sure, he sucked the first 3/4 of the season. But his last 20 odd regular season games were pretty much on the same level (as his PO run). He didn't just pick it up for the postseason.
Will he perform this way next year? Who knows. He's proven in the past that he can sustain this level for a whole season.
As long as he plays next postseason the way he played this year's I've got no problem with his contract. And you know what? I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

And that's not even the point. Calling Coburn a marginal d-man is moronic and you know it. At least I hope you do.


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07-10-2010, 08:14 PM
  #360
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My opinion about the Coburn signing is...whatever. Coburn is and was part of our core so it was kind of important that we signed him, although trading for Meszaros kind of made him less needed. I think Coburn only deserved like 2.5, but I don't think Coburn was willing to accept below 3 mil. Granted, Coburn was an RFA so it's not like he had leverage.

Trading a 2nd for Meszaros at 4 mil was far stupider then signing Coburn at 3.2 mil, all things considered.

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07-10-2010, 08:38 PM
  #361
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Only 130K more than Boogaard! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Congrats Flyers fans!

NOW can we have Gagne for free???? Kthxbai!

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Old
07-10-2010, 08:48 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
How is his drop in production a myth? Hes turning 31 this season, his play has never gotten close to the 2005-2007 results, and hes gone through numerous major injuries. The drop in production isn't a myth, its already started, and will continue to go down hill.

Also thats great he had a 79 point season in 2008-2009, but that was a two years, a hernia, and broken foot ago.
What are the NUMEROUS MAJOR INJURIES?

The hyperbole is ridiculous. He ONE concussion two seasons ago and came back with 34 goals.

He had groin surgery that forced him to miss training camp and two months of the season. After the Olympic break he was our best forward until he broke his toe.

The only things really effecting his trade value are his UFA status and his NTC.

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07-10-2010, 09:28 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post


I remember this guy as a Jacket. He wants to do things his way, and if he can't he gets mad. Several times as a Jacket he didn't show up for practice, because he had better things to do like going to the beach or shopping. This is why he can't stay with a team for more than a season or two despite being a good player.

Good luck with him, maybe your coach can tell him who's the boss.
I missed you.

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07-10-2010, 10:08 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
What are the NUMEROUS MAJOR INJURIES?

The hyperbole is ridiculous. He ONE concussion two seasons ago and came back with 34 goals.

He had groin surgery that forced him to miss training camp and two months of the season. After the Olympic break he was our best forward until he broke his toe.

The only things really effecting his trade value are his UFA status and his NTC.
Dislocated shoulder, one-three concussions (nobody is sure the exact number), hernia, broken foot. Thats numerous.

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07-10-2010, 10:09 PM
  #365
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Reading this thread is giving me a headache. Gagne vs Zherdev, Zherdev vs Gagne.
Wake the **** up!!! Signing Shelley and trading for Meszaros is why we may have to trade Gagne.

Getting 50-60pts player for 2M a year is not why Gagne or someone else on this team will have to be traded and by the way getting Zherdev for 2M a year is a good deal even if he is one-dimensional player or am I wrong?


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Old
07-10-2010, 10:12 PM
  #366
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Dislocated shoulder, one-three concussions (nobody is sure the exact number), hernia, broken foot. Thats numerous.
You qualify hernias and broken feet as major injuries that represent an injury history? Or dislocated shoulders for that matter?

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07-10-2010, 10:18 PM
  #367
Kermit the Prog
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
No, I understand that perfectly fine. You know who else is a valuable trading asset? Carter. Richards. Giroux. JVR. Pretty much any other productive player on our team. I'm not sure what kind of point you can make by saying that Gagne has trade value.
None of those players has the same trade profile as Gagne from the Flyers' perspective. If you want me to repeat that profile (which NONE of the players you mentioned have), I'd be more than glad to do so.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I never said that Homer may or may not have planned it, did I? I said, he screwed up. The act of ****ing up isn't necessarily unintentional.
I have no idea where this is coming from. I never said you said it. I postulated that Gagne may have been targeted by Holmgren to be moved regardless of what has already transpired this offseason.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
He's been a life-time Flyer and players like that generally get treated a bit better.
Ultimately, it's winning hockey that Holmgren and every NHL GM answers to. Sentimentality is cute and all, but rarely does it ever contribute to success. Athletes understand this is a business. Every interview with a traded player seems to include the player saying, "I realize hockey/football/baseball/basketball is a business."

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Regardless, he ****ed up and getting rid of Gagne makes us considerably worse. Which isn't acceptable considering that the team is in a "win-now" mode with a short window of opportunity at the Cup most likely.
He hasn't screwed up at all. The roster is not finalized - and if he was planning on moving Gagne this offseason, which may or may not be true, where has he screwed up the team? Do you really think he went out to sign these players only to look back and say, "Oh, damn, I forgot about Gagne's salary!"? Come on, that is ridiculous.

May as well weigh in on these other points:

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
1) The injury history thing has been proven to be a myth time-and-time again.

I swear, some people just parrot what they hear. If you look over Gagne's injury history, there's no indication that he's an injury-prone player.
Agreed. Gagne is not injury prone. Often, he tries to play through them.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
2) He's actually had better production post-lockout then pre-lockout. If there's been any drop in production then it's a marginal drop. He's still a 30-goal, 70-point, two-way player in a full season. That's first-line winger material.
No argument here, but it is those same attributes that makes him a prime tradeable asset (see below). However, the only years that matter are what he did last year and what Holmgren/GM X think he will be able to contribute this coming season. I doubt GMs care about what he did 2+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
3) Age? He's fricking 30. The earliest reasonable age to expect his prime to end, is 33. Many players are still able to be productive even beyond that. Briere, our best playoff performer, is 32. Should we trade that old, washed-up, injury-prone player too?
Gagne and Briere are not the same players. Briere also has a No Movement Contract, so the point is moot. Sans additional concussions/severe injuries, Gagne could be productive for several more seasons.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
4) His salary is perfectly reasonable for what he brings. He's our best winger and a life-time Flyer. Hartnell, Briere, Meszaros, and Carle are all guys who are more expendable then Gagne (although Briere might be arguable).
The lifetime Flyer thing is inconsequential. There's no telling what goes on in phone conversations between Holmgren and other GMs or Holmgren and Laviolette. Maybe they tried moving Hartnell and/or Carle. Who knows? Maybe Carter, too. Maybe all of this is speculative by the press and the fan base. Maybe Gagne IS here this coming season. Nothing is finalized.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Even if you think he makes too much, he comes off the books after this season. He was making perfectly acceptable money for his production, there are several players more expendable then him, and he comes off the books after this season. So, before Homer totally ****ed up our cap, his salary was no problem in absolutely no way, shape, or form.
And here is where the other shoe drops - the part you bolded. With the upcoming contracts for Giroux, Leino, van Riemsdyk and whomever the hell else, chances are excellent the Flyers would not be able to sign him after this season anyway. Why not get something solid in return - and maybe get some cap flexibility for the trade deadline?

Look, I understand people getting bunched up about the prospect of Gagne no longer being a Flyer. He's been here for a decade and has been the face of the franchise for many fans who started watching hockey at/near the turn of the millennium. It's not easy letting go of favorite players. Some players were the reason certain people became fans in the first place. There was a Flyers team long before Gagne came along and will be long after he is gone, too. I remember not being able to think of the Flyers without Clarke, Barber and Parent (not to mention Schultz, Moose and a dozen others). Trying to keep emotion out of the equation, do you really think Holmgren just "forgot" about Gagne's salary when he brought those other players aboard, or does it make more sense that he already targeted Gagne as a valuable trading chip going into this offseason and made those other moves with the idea he was already moving Gagne?

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07-10-2010, 10:19 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post


1) The injury history thing has been proven to be a myth time-and-time again.

I swear, some people just parrot what they hear. If you look over Gagne's injury history, there's no indication that he's an injury-prone player.

2) He's actually had better production post-lockout then pre-lockout. If there's been any drop in production then it's a marginal drop. He's still a 30-goal, 70-point, two-way player in a full season. That's first-line winger material.

3) Age? He's fricking 30. The earliest reasonable age to expect his prime to end, is 33. Many players are still able to be productive even beyond that. Briere, our best playoff performer, is 32. Should we trade that old, washed-up, injury-prone player too?

4) His salary is perfectly reasonable for what he brings. He's our best winger and a life-time Flyer. Hartnell, Briere, Meszaros, and Carle are all guys who are more expendable then Gagne (although Briere might be arguable).

Even if you think he makes too much, he comes off the books after this season. He was making perfectly acceptable money for his production, there are several players more expendable then him, and he comes off the books after this season. So, before Homer totally ****ed up our cap, his salary was no problem in absolutely no way, shape, or form.
1. Injuries effect players negatively whether you want to believe it or not.

2. He's on the downside of his career, I'm not sure how anyone could possibly argue that. Also a lot of the production came soon after the lockout when he was paired with one of the best passers of all-time. Gagne will never come close to that production again, so stop dreaming.

3. Gagne will be turning 31 this season, and hes going into his 11th season in the NHL, thats a lot of wear and tear without factoring in the yearly Playoff runs.

4. I agree other players would be better options to get rid of, but they might not bring the return Gagne does. I know rumors are rumors, but how many of those players you mentioned could bring Bernier or Quick?

I'm not trying to argue that Gagne is garbage - though I think hes commonly overrated by fans like yourself - He can still score 30 goals and be a factor on defense. But when people wonder why the Flyers are looking to trade him, I gave reasons, if you can think of better ones than be my guest, say them, but if you can't turn off the homer switch because it gets old quick.

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07-10-2010, 10:21 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
You qualify hernias and broken feet as major injuries that represent an injury history? Or dislocated shoulders for that matter?
Honestly, I would. Dislocated shoulders are prone to re-injury. When a player gets hurt a lot, there's little reason to believe that they'll suddenly be healthy consistently. I think it's unfair to call Gagne injury plagued or anything, but when things keep you out of the lineup for weeks at a time, they're major.

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07-10-2010, 10:22 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
You qualify hernias and broken feet as major injuries that represent an injury history? Or dislocated shoulders for that matter?
Are you serious? Yes of course. I can't even believe you just posted something this stupid.

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07-10-2010, 10:27 PM
  #371
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i would feel bad for Gagne if he was traded and we won the cup this year

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07-10-2010, 10:29 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
It's not like Zherdev is going to be around after this year. He's either going to crash and burn or he'll do well and then sign for 4.5 mill somewhere else unless you want to get rid of Giroux for him.
I agree, but we have the option of trading Gagne, we dont have the option to trade Zherdev. If we keep Gagne he's gone after this year for nothing. If we trade him we at least get something for him AND get to sign a starting goalie. I know the Leighton and Shelley signings sucked, but thats done now and we have to work with the crap hand we were dealt to try to fix it.

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07-10-2010, 11:07 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
How is his drop in production a myth? Hes turning 31 this season, his play has never gotten close to the 2005-2007 results, and hes gone through numerous major injuries. The drop in production isn't a myth, its already started, and will continue to go down hill.

Also thats great he had a 79 point season in 2008-2009, but that was a two years, a hernia, and broken foot ago.
The same hernia and broken foot he was playing with in the playoffs when he was scoring at a pace of 36 goals?

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07-10-2010, 11:37 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by xchrisx159 View Post
The same hernia and broken foot he was playing with in the playoffs when he was scoring at a pace of 36 goals?
If you want to judge his play in the Playoffs thats fine, but don't give me the goal scoring pace he was on because thats meaningless in such a small sample size.

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07-10-2010, 11:39 PM
  #375
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I give up. I learned long ago that there's no sense in talking to some people so I don't even know why I try anymore.

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