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Would Simon Gagne waive his NTC for the Wings?

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Old
07-12-2010, 11:51 AM
  #26
IrishSniper87
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Originally Posted by Dustin16182 View Post
In return for Dan Cleary and Derek Meech? What do you Philly fans think of that trade? You'd get some cap relief, and Dan Cleary is a solid 20-25 goal scorer if he can get a good season run.
Dan Cleary sucks.

No way.

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07-12-2010, 12:10 PM
  #27
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Sharks basically gave Erhoff away last year, why is it so inconceivable that we wouldn't get anything close to fair value for Gagne? Especially with Holmgren running the show?

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07-12-2010, 09:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Sharks basically gave Erhoff away last year, why is it so inconceivable that we wouldn't get anything close to fair value for Gagne? Especially with Holmgren running the show?
This is what scares me.

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07-12-2010, 09:13 PM
  #29
decadentia
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Sharks basically gave Erhoff away last year, why is it so inconceivable that we wouldn't get anything close to fair value for Gagne? Especially with Holmgren running the show?
Wilson is about as well liked in San Jose as Holmgren is in Philly. I think they are both idiots, but not necessarily of the same breed.

That being said, who knows, maybe Gagne won't garner a fair return. It's hard to say, trades continually surprise me.

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07-12-2010, 10:03 PM
  #30
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The Ehrhoff trade was done at the end of August when pretty much every team's rosters were set already. It is still early July and there are still a number of teams out there that are able to take on Gagne, and have a need for him. Also, the Ehrhoff trade was made to get under the cap so they could fit in Heatley's enormous contract. They really weren't in the best position to be trading, not that we are, but they were in a much worse situation than us.

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07-12-2010, 10:08 PM
  #31
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**** no

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07-12-2010, 10:09 PM
  #32
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With Gagne the Red Wings depth of defensively amazing forwards that can score would be pretty sick.

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07-12-2010, 10:13 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
This is what scares me.
Am I missing something? Under Holmgren the flyers have gone from last place to not missing the playoffs since, one run to the ECF and a finals appearance. Are flyers fans delusional in not liking this guy or am I missing something? Please someone fill me in, I've been asking this question a lot. Never has a more successful gm been criticized than the way I've seen Holmgren criticized by flyers fans. Has he made some bad moves? Sure the Randy Jones contract wasn't great, neither was the Parent trade(though most flyers fans agree, Ryan Parent is terrible) but how many gms don't make bad moves? For every bad move Holmgren has made he's made many good ones.

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07-12-2010, 10:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Am I missing something? Under Holmgren the flyers have gone from last place to not missing the playoffs since, one run to the ECF and a finals appearance. Are flyers fans delusional in not liking this guy or am I missing something? Please someone fill me in, I've been asking this question a lot. Never has a more successful gm been criticized than the way I've seen Holmgren criticized by flyers fans. Has he made some bad moves? Sure the Randy Jones contract wasn't great, neither was the Parent trade(though most flyers fans agree, Ryan Parent is terrible) but how many gms don't make bad moves? For every bad move Holmgren has made he's made many good ones.
All GM's making ****** moves I agree but man, I'd really like to know what the **** was going through his head when he traded for Meszaros, signed Shelley and gave Leighton that extension on an already cap straped team. He has overpaid every single player except Richards, Pronger and Carter.

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07-12-2010, 10:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Am I missing something? Under Holmgren the flyers have gone from last place to not missing the playoffs since, one run to the ECF and a finals appearance. Are flyers fans delusional in not liking this guy or am I missing something? Please someone fill me in, I've been asking this question a lot. Never has a more successful gm been criticized than the way I've seen Holmgren criticized by flyers fans. Has he made some bad moves? Sure the Randy Jones contract wasn't great, neither was the Parent trade(though most flyers fans agree, Ryan Parent is terrible) but how many gms don't make bad moves? For every bad move Holmgren has made he's made many good ones.
You aren't missing something, he just isn't as good as some of the other GM's on the Board here.

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07-12-2010, 11:04 PM
  #36
decadentia
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Am I missing something? Under Holmgren the flyers have gone from last place to not missing the playoffs since, one run to the ECF and a finals appearance. Are flyers fans delusional in not liking this guy or am I missing something? Please someone fill me in, I've been asking this question a lot. Never has a more successful gm been criticized than the way I've seen Holmgren criticized by flyers fans. Has he made some bad moves? Sure the Randy Jones contract wasn't great, neither was the Parent trade(though most flyers fans agree, Ryan Parent is terrible) but how many gms don't make bad moves? For every bad move Holmgren has made he's made many good ones.
Give me a core that he had coming in (Richards, Carter etc), tons of cap space and i'll create you a contender. He's made some good trades, but made some absolute blunders as well. It's hard to be forgiving on a guy who ignores the absolute obvious sometimes (like, a goalie) and then signs something we dont' need (for instance, Shelley).

Yes i'm thankful he's not Dudley, there's still reason to be critical.



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07-12-2010, 11:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
If I were Gagne I wouldn't mind playing for DET. Don't think this will ever happen because we are both so close to the cap ceiling.
Gagne will only waive his NTC to go to the Leafs - everybody knows that!

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07-12-2010, 11:12 PM
  #38
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We'd be doing Gagne a huge favor by sending him to the Wings. In all honesty, I can't think of a better team for him to go to. I actually wouldn't mind Dan Cleary as part of the deal, if he wasn't coming in at a $2.8M cap hit through 2012-2013. Since I assume we wouldn't want to take back much salary in the deal, I'd love to be able to get someone like Darren Helm and a prospect (any way we could get Brendan Smith or Tomas Tatar?). Maybe have the Wings throw in one or two of their European scouts that find those late-round gems in the draft.

I know the Wings are up against the cap, and acquiring Gagne without trading away salary would probably put them over. Is there anyone else on the roster, perhaps on a one-year deal, who could be traded to clear some cap space?

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Old
07-13-2010, 05:34 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Give me a core that he had coming in (Richards, Carter etc), tons of cap space and i'll create you a contender. He's made some good trades, but made some absolute blunders as well. It's hard to be forgiving on a guy who ignores the absolute obvious sometimes (like, a goalie) and then signs something we dont' need (for instance, Shelley).

Yes i'm thankful he's not Dudley, there's still reason to be critical.

Except he helped put together a lot of the core. Look at the defense. Is there a guy there he didn't acquire(No there isn't)? As overpaid as Danny Briere is in the regular season he has been their most dangerous offensive weapon in both their playoff runs and with Simon Gagnes health issues both those years they don't go anywhere without him. Also consider the aquisitions of Timonen Hartnell, Leino and Coburn for nothing and no he hasn't just made good moves, he's made some great moves. And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Paul Holmgren a significant part of the flyers scouting staff for a long time? Sure Carter and Richards were in place before he was gm but we don't know that he didn't have a part in selecting those guys.

And in terms of the cap. I really believe Paul Holmgren was in a good situation going into the summer. He had something like 10 million to spend all of which he used up trying to make the team better. What I don't like (and I'm not saying people can't criticize but where is this thinking coming from that he is a terrible gm?) myself is that he is looking to dump Simon Gagne to make that cap room for a goalie. I don't think thats the guy he should be looking at moving personally but I guess somebody has to go.


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Old
07-13-2010, 06:43 PM
  #40
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Gagne and Wings would fit like a glove.

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07-13-2010, 07:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CarcillosMustache View Post
I dont really know if you can do this - but would it be possible (if both parties agreed) to just throw away Gagne's current contract and then make a new one that includes an extension and a cheaper price...?
I think they can sign him to an extension actually during this upcoming season.

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07-13-2010, 09:14 PM
  #42
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yes, i imagine he'd waive his NTC for detroit, no, that offer is not enticing at all in any context under any circumstances ever.

meech would be like our number 9 dman and cleary could not find a top six spot. honestly i'd probably rather give him away for a package of middle round picks than take that deal.

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Old
07-13-2010, 10:19 PM
  #43
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Hudler for Gagne

Wings get a good top 6 player with some concerns
Flyers get a talented young top six with some concerns

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07-14-2010, 09:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
We'd be doing Gagne a huge favor by sending him to the Wings. In all honesty, I can't think of a better team for him to go to. I actually wouldn't mind Dan Cleary as part of the deal, if he wasn't coming in at a $2.8M cap hit through 2012-2013. Since I assume we wouldn't want to take back much salary in the deal, I'd love to be able to get someone like Darren Helm and a prospect (any way we could get Brendan Smith or Tomas Tatar?). Maybe have the Wings throw in one or two of their European scouts that find those late-round gems in the draft.

I know the Wings are up against the cap, and acquiring Gagne without trading away salary would probably put them over. Is there anyone else on the roster, perhaps on a one-year deal, who could be traded to clear some cap space?
Way over, once the roster is filled out. Gagne is a great player and the Red Wings would love to have him, though. Who from Detroit might interest Philly and can be the basis for a deal that works for both teams?

(Why does he want a trade anyway? I haven't been paying attention to the situation so I'm a bit mystified by it. He's been a Flyer for a long time, you guys are obviously a competitive team and, in my outsider's opinion, he is the #1 catalyst for your offense.)

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07-15-2010, 01:57 AM
  #45
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Way over, once the roster is filled out. Gagne is a great player and the Red Wings would love to have him, though. Who from Detroit might interest Philly and can be the basis for a deal that works for both teams?

(Why does he want a trade anyway? I haven't been paying attention to the situation so I'm a bit mystified by it. He's been a Flyer for a long time, you guys are obviously a competitive team and, in my outsider's opinion, he is the #1 catalyst for your offense.)
Well, he doesn't necessarily want to be traded, but the writing is on the wall for him, as Paul Holmgren is doing everything he can to make sure Simon Gagne isn't on this roster for the 2010-2011 season. There a few reasons for the decision:

1) Injury concerns. Gagne has missed significant time in 2 of his last 3 seasons (concussions and surgery for a hernia in his right groin). At age 30, it wouldn't surprise me if Holmgren thinks Gagne is getting more injury-prone.

2) Expiring contract. Gagne's contract, which carries a cap hit of $5.25M, expires at the end of the 2010-2011 season. Jeff Carter (UFA), Claude Giroux (RFA), and Ville Leino (UFA) will all be up for new contracts at that time, as well. Unless Gagne would be willing to take a major home discount, his chances of being a Flyer beyond the 2010-2011 season would be quite slim. Given that this next contract could very well be his last chance to make serious money as an NHL player, I don't think Gagne would be willing to take the discount he'd have to in order to stay with the Flyers -- and, in all fairness, why should he? In light of this reality, it seems Holmgren long ago made up his mind about Gagne's future as a Flyer beyond 2010-2011 and probably wants to get whatever he can for Simon before losing him for nothing.

3) Cap room. We no longer have any (although this is a product of Holmgren's own, um, master plan). We need some. Gagne's cap hit, combined with his impending free agency, makes him a prime candidate to be moved in order to clear the requisite cap space.

4) Talent level. Simon Gagne is no longer a 50-goal scorer. Rather, he's a guy who, if healthy, will probably chip in 25-30 goals and 60-65 points for the next few seasons before his play starts to decline, while playing superb defense. He's really an elite defensive forward, and that's a part of his game that cannot be understated. Simon Gagne is still a solid top-9 forward, but going forward, it'll be tough to justify giving him a contract that carries a cap hit in excess of even $4.5M per season.

I don't want Simon to get traded, as I hoped there'd be some way we could re-sign him at the end of this season and ensure he'd finish his career in Philadelphia. But I'm not naive, and I realize such a hope is probably unrealistic. That said, I do not at all approve of how Holmgren and the Flyers have handled this situation, as it reminds me of what the Eagles did to McNabb a few months ago. It's not right to leave a model player like Simon Gagne -- who has been with the organization for 11 years and shown nothing but the utmost loyalty, professionalism, and class throughout his career -- hanging in limbo. This isn't how you treat someone who has been a cornerstone of your franchise for more than a decade. At least Gagne somewhat controls his own destiny by being able to exercise the NTC in his contract.

As for who we'd want from the Wings... there are definitely players on your roster who would be of great interest to us, both in terms of talent and cap hit. Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, and Valteri Filppula come to mind, but I highly doubt your GM would be interested in parting with any of them for a veteran player who may only end up staying for one season. Obviously, Gagne's contract status diminishes his value a little bit on the trade market. I'd love to get a guy like Darren Helm for our bottom-6, but unless he's packaged with a player who has a greater cap hit (and, no, I don't think Dan Cleary would be of much interest to us... at least I hope not), the deal wouldn't work out from a salary cap standpoint. You might be able to convince me to take Tomas Holmstrom, but that would probably involve buying me a few drinks first.

Might as well go ahead and throw out an offer you think would be fair.


Last edited by Amateur Hour: 07-15-2010 at 02:03 AM.
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07-15-2010, 07:36 PM
  #46
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Thanks for the response. This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
It's not right to leave a model player like Simon Gagne -- who has been with the organization for 11 years and shown nothing but the utmost loyalty, professionalism, and class throughout his career -- hanging in limbo. This isn't how you treat someone who has been a cornerstone of your franchise for more than a decade.
...is along the lines of what I was thinking. I am aware of his injury history but still find it at least semi-baffling that Holmgren would even think about cutting him loose. I watched nearly all your playoff games and the entire team's offense was noticeably more dynamic when he returned from injury. It's not like he's 37.

I didn't post the original thread and throwing out fantasy proposals isn't really my bag, but I just thought I would try and generate some actual discussion since the proposal at the top of this thread misses the mark (I actually love Cleary's game and don't find his contract outlandish like some do, but Meech is a scrub that doesn't fit into your already stacked blue line, and Dan the Man alone is not fair return for Gagne, even with his issues). As far as what I can say about individual players,

Kronwall is pretty close to untouchable; both Lidstrom and Rafalski are long in the tooth and he is the only heir apparent as far as puck-moving skills. For a system like Detroit's, he is essential going forward. I also don't see you guys as particularly in need of defensemen.

Filppula might be a good match as far as value, but the Wings have spent years molding him into a center so that they can put Datsyuk and Zetterberg together and still have a dangerous second line. So I'm thinking they'd not move him for a winger.

Hudler is probably the most intriguing. I wonder how keenly Ken Holland is feeling the urgency to try and "win now" before Lidstrom retires. If I ran the team I might be motivated to work a deal centered around him to bring in Gagne despite their similar anticipated offensive production and the obvious exchange in terms of age and health. I also think he (Hudler) would do well in Philly where his lack of size wouldn't be much of an issue. Hell, he is way less of a perimeter player than Leino, and he seemed to work out alright

The Wings would never trade Holmstrom. Helm would be difficult to acquire as well, as he is valued enough that the Wings are very unlikely to include him as a throw-in in a package deal but is also not really a good enough player to justify throwing real assets at him. One of those guys that would cost you more to get than he would be worth to you.

Cheers (man, is it seriously only July? How many months til preseason? Sigh...)

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