Last year was Stralman's first full year in the NHL. He went from a call up guy to 20 mins per game. That is a very difficult leap to make. Not that last year offered a lot of choices. He also endured a great deal of personal upheaval. Again not that others haven't it's just I think you need look at the overall circumstances. He brings skill to the position on a team that, as has been mentioned, doesn't have a lot to spare. The defensive aspects can be coached. I think he is another one of those guys that we need to see what the new staff can do to improve him. It think it is apparent that he is not a 20 min a night defenseman at this point but he does offer value to the team.
I'm on record saying don't overpay Anton, but this stat? Do we have causal evidence?
All Stralman's fault? Please. No.
But when you're -16 on the road while you're team had 9 less points on the road, it was certainly a contributing factor. He was exposed on the road. We can try and say he'll do better this year. Who knows he might. But he's not very good in his own zone and his offense isn't good enough to make up for that, IMO.
We have a bunch of junk on defense. Please, let's just keep re-signing the same crap. I hate signing players based on desperation. "But OMG, he's like our best offensive dman. The team will just implode if we have 8 less PP goals over the course of the year. Nevermind that he'll be more or less responsible for additional 15 ES goals over a stronger defender. We must has him!".
Seriously if we're going to have a crappy defensive puck mover that can run the PP, you might as well develop Moore up here, after all Arniel is going to make all things young instantly awesome over night, for like 1/4 (or more) the price. Moore was already the best puck mover and second most mobile defender last year before we sent him back.
We have a bunch of junk on defense. Please, let's just keep re-signing the same crap. I hate signing players based on desperation. "But OMG, he's like our best offensive dman. The team will just implode if we have 8 less PP goals over the course of the year. Nevermind that he'll be more or less responsible for additional 15 ES goals over a stronger defender. We must has him!".
This. Stralman is a small piece who cannot be trusted at even strength.
Our offensive production is not the problem, especially when you consider that Nash had a down year and that Filatov/Brassard/Voracek should improve. Our weakness, by far, was our defense and goaltending. I'm in favor of improving our D at a slight expense to our offense.
This. Stralman is a small piece who cannot be trusted at even strength.
Our offensive production is not the problem, especially when you consider that Nash had a down year and that Filatov/Brassard/Voracek should improve. Our weakness, by far, was our defense and goaltending. I'm in favor of improving our D at a slight expense to our offense.
I'm not sure our offense is as great as some believe--right now, we've got two lines that have any offensive skill and that is pretty easy for an opponent to defend, particularly on the road. For that matter, Torres was a solid power play contributor that someone is going to have to fill the void of.
As for Stralman, I think he's been overrated by many. He's a stop gap and nothing more, which is why I wouldn't want to give him any more than was given to Kris Russell and preferably less and a shorter term.
Last year was Stralman's first full year in the NHL. He went from a call up guy to 20 mins per game. He also endured a great deal of personal upheaval. He brings skill to the position on a team that, as has been mentioned, doesn't have a lot to spare.
really good points. Also, pretty similar to what Hainsey did. Ron was a waiver wire pick up from Montreal IIRC. I'm 100% OK with us having cut bait with Hainsey, seeing what he fetched, and I'd be OK cutting bait with Anton if he's awarded too much. I just thought we could determine how much is "too much" all things considered.
It sounds like those amongst us who'd like to see him back think 2-2.25mil range seems fair for what he brings and makes sense with respect to our budget. I don't think he's a guy we can afford to let go of this season. I think it could take 3mil for 1yr.
Personally, I'm a Stralman fan so I'll suffice it to say this may be jaded.
For handling 20 min per game and scoring at a clip of 0.47 pts/game in his firts full time gig in the NHL I think he handled himself pretty well. He obviously needs some work in the defensive zone but so does every young d-man (or forward for that matter). He led the team in points from the back end and although his +/- on the road was abysmal it can be compensated for.
I thought he looked best early in the season and seemed to get more lost as the year went on. I think he's a valuable asset but in no way is he worth $3M per right now.
I think he's a valuable asset but in no way is he worth $3M per right now.
To play devil's advocate-why not?
If I were his agent, here are the reasons why I think he is worth $3M on a multi-year (to someone):
1. He's Young and injury free thus far
2. Puck moving/point getter (34 pts in 73 games)
3. He'll cut his +/- in half this season, only his 2nd in the NHL
4. If he repeats or improves on last season (a la Ron Hainsey) he'll be looking for 4+
Hainsey
2006-07 CLS 80 9 25 34 -19
2007-08 CLS 78 8 24 32 -7
**these are the numbers that landed hainsey an average of 4.5mil over 5 years, although that was in Atlanta (sorry, ATL)
Stralman
2009-10 CLS 73 6 28 34 -17
Again, it probably seems like I'm gung-ho to sign up Anton and give him whatever he wants-certainly not the case, I'm just making the argument that is likely being made on his behalf, and it's pretty strong.
I think this one may make it to arbitration, and possibly the team letting him walk. Truth told, I don't like that scenario much. Curious to see how shrewd Scotty can be in this situation. Also curious how anxious Anton is to ship off to another squad/city, with a new wife, baby, etc.
I doubt he's too anxious to leave. Columbus needs a power play Dman and there aren't many teams that have such a need that they'll overlook his defensive deficiences. He may have trouble finding another NHL home, for sure he won't find one that gives him the opportunity that Columbus does.
After toiling on the depth charts of Toronto and (briefly) Calgary, I hope whatever money he's asking for he gives consideration for Columbus finally giving him a chance to play quality minutes for a whole season.
...and while there's absolutely no question that Hainsey is significantly overpaid, I wouldn't say he's paid double what he's actually worth.
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I doubt he's too anxious to leave. Columbus needs a power play Dman and there aren't many teams that have such a need that they'll overlook his defensive deficiences. He may have trouble finding another NHL home, for sure he won't find one that gives him the opportunity that Columbus does.
Yea, I think Columbus is a good fit for him. If I was Stralman, I'd take $4mil total for 2 years and be happy. I think there are probably 1 or 2 teams that may be interested in him now, but you never know. He knows he has a team he can get some playing time with here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp
After toiling on the depth charts of Toronto and (briefly) Calgary, I hope whatever money he's asking for he gives consideration for Columbus finally giving him a chance to play quality minutes for a whole season.
Let us not forget-Ron Hainsey was a waiver wire pick-up from MTL!
Hainsey was a -7 his last season with the Jackets (playing more minutes than Stralman). Stralman was a -17. The much maligned Kristian Backman (albeit with significantly less time on ice) was a +5 the prior season to really put into perspective Stralman's suckitude.
In 2008-09, Russell was worst on the blueline with a -10. Now some people are talking about giving Stralman $2 million plus based on one season in which he was a -17?!
The blind faith in +/- being a reliable indicator of defensive ability is laughable.
Arbitrators tend to side more with teams than with players. All they have to do is say compare him to Russell who is making 1.3M and ask them how Strahlman is worth more when he's marginally better offensively (because of his right handed shot) yet even quite worse than Russell defensively.
Oh and plus/minus does mean things. It just isn't a great indicator because bad teams rack up a lot of minus' and good teams get a lot of pluses. But if you look at the teams themselves, Strahlman has the worst plus/minus on the whole team last year.
Compare to Russell who was a +3 with 7 goals and 15 assists playing in 70 games and 32 PIM
Strahlman was a -17 with 6 goals with 6 goals and 28 assists playing in 73 games and 37 PIM
So 1 less goal, 13 more assists is worth a lot more than 1.3M despite the fact that he was absolutely horribly defensively?
Hainsey was a -7 his last season with the Jackets (playing more minutes than Stralman). Stralman was a -17. The much maligned Kristian Backman (albeit with significantly less time on ice) was a +5 the prior season to really put into perspective Stralman's suckitude.
In 2008-09, Russell was worst on the blueline with a -10. Now some people are talking about giving Stralman $2 million plus based on one season in which he was a -17?!
You wanna say his plus/minus again? I think I heard somebody say it was -15, maybe it's not being posted enough.
Plus/Minus doesn't do these guys justice. I'm not saying that the people who are throwing out his point totals are giving Stralman a fair shake.
But just for comparisons sake, here's what plus minus would look like if we included all the goals they were on ice for. (the last column is PP Goals by the other team)
FORWARDS
Name
EV GF
PP GF
EV GA
PP GA
Adj. +-
Russell
45
14
42
3
14
Stralman
38
34
55
5
12
Clitsome
11
1
10
0
2
Tyutin
54
34
61
27
E
Jurcina
13
0
11
3
-1
Paetsch
0
2
5
0
-3
Roy
18
1
20
7
-8
Klesla
19
3
26
11
-15
Methot
41
0
49
18
-26
Commodore
37
2
44
22
-29
Hejda
37
2
51
25
-37
What does this mean...Stralman isn't going to be winning the Norris Trophy but he certainly is adding value. I'd love a lineup full of one-dimensional defensive defensemen as much as anybody but teams need guys like Stralman,
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You wanna say his plus/minus again? I think I heard somebody say it was -15, maybe it's not being posted enough.
Plus/Minus doesn't do these guys justice. I'm not saying that the people who are throwing out his point totals are giving Stralman a fair shake.
But just for comparisons sake, here's what plus minus would look like if we included all the goals they were on ice for. (the last column is PP Goals by the other team)
FORWARDS
Name
EV GF
PP GF
EV GA
PP GA
Adj. +-
Russell
45
14
42
3
14
Stralman
38
34
55
5
12
Clitsome
11
1
10
0
2
Tyutin
54
34
61
27
E
Jurcina
13
0
11
3
-1
Paetsch
0
2
5
0
-3
Roy
18
1
20
7
-8
Klesla
19
3
26
11
-15
Methot
41
0
49
18
-26
Commodore
37
2
44
22
-29
Hejda
37
2
51
25
-37
What does this mean...Stralman isn't going to be winning the Norris Trophy but he certainly is adding value. I'd love a lineup full of one-dimensional defensive defensemen as much as anybody but teams need guys like Stralman,
No offense but the power play goals on ice is misleading because Strahlman basically played on the ice for the full 2 minutes and Russell would maybe get 30 seconds out there occasionally. And how can you count power play goals against? Obviously our defensive defenders are going to be out there and are going to take minus' because teams typically score on the power play.
No offense but the power play goals on ice is misleading because Strahlman basically played on the ice for the full 2 minutes and Russell would maybe get 30 seconds out there occasionally.
Stralman averaged 3:36 PP TOI a game, Russell, 2:29.
The blind faith in +/- being a reliable indicator of defensive ability is laughable.
Who's talking "blind faith"? It is one indicator. The other would be my own two eyes. Stralman is routinely caught out of position and has to be bailed out by his defensive partner. To the point where when I saw and odd man rush in the latter parts of the season I fully expected to see Stralman out of position on the replay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samkow
You wanna say his plus/minus again? I think I heard somebody say it was -15, maybe it's not being posted enough.
Plus/Minus doesn't do these guys justice. I'm not saying that the people who are throwing out his point totals are giving Stralman a fair shake.
But just for comparisons sake, here's what plus minus would look like if we included all the goals they were on ice for. (the last column is PP Goals by the other team)
FORWARDS
Name
EV GF
PP GF
EV GA
PP GA
Adj. +-
Russell
45
14
42
3
14
Stralman
38
34
55
5
12
Clitsome
11
1
10
0
2
Tyutin
54
34
61
27
E
Jurcina
13
0
11
3
-1
Paetsch
0
2
5
0
-3
Roy
18
1
20
7
-8
Klesla
19
3
26
11
-15
Methot
41
0
49
18
-26
Commodore
37
2
44
22
-29
Hejda
37
2
51
25
-37
What does this mean...Stralman isn't going to be winning the Norris Trophy but he certainly is adding value. I'd love a lineup full of one-dimensional defensive defensemen as much as anybody but teams need guys like Stralman,
Thanks for the graph proving my point. Who was "better" based on your own graph, Russell or Stralman?
So, why should Anton Stralman get paid more than Kris Russell based on one season? Particularly on a team where 4 defenseman are signed through 2011/12 and there are an abundance of young prospects in Springfield starting this fall?
Who's talking "blind faith"? It is one indicator. The other would be my own two eyes. Stralman is routinely caught out of position and has to be bailed out by his defensive partner. To the point where when I saw and odd man rush in the latter parts of the season I fully expected to see Stralman out of position on the replay.
Thanks for the graph proving my point. Who was "better" based on your own graph, Russell or Stralman?
So, why should Anton Stralman get paid more than Kris Russell based on one season? Particularly on a team where 4 defenseman are signed through 2011/12 and there are an abundance of young prospects in Springfield starting this fall?
You're the one adding the part about him getting paid more then Russell. (Although I also do enjoy putting words in people's mouths).
I posted that to show that Stralman isn't some Hitch-hater who is Andy Delmore: Redux.
Who's talking "blind faith"? It is one indicator. The other would be my own two eyes. Stralman is routinely caught out of position and has to be bailed out by his defensive partner. To the point where when I saw and odd man rush in the latter parts of the season I fully expected to see Stralman out of position on the replay.
It's so rare that I agree with you, but this is one of those times. I saw the same things out of Strahlman that you did; where we differ, however, is that my two eyes told me that Hainsey was even worse.
You're the one adding the part about him getting paid more then Russell. (Although I also do enjoy putting words in people's mouths).
I posted that to show that Stralman isn't some Hitch-hater who is Andy Delmore: Redux.
Speaking of putting word's in people's mouths, perhaps you should show me where I, the person you responded to, said anything to that effect?
Me: Now some people are talking about giving Stralman $2 million plus based on one season in which he was a -17?!
You: Plus/Minus doesn't do these guys justice. Here's a better measure...
Me: ...which shows Stralman as no better than the guy getting paid $1.3 million.
I really don't care how we arrive at the point, it remains the same--Anton Stralman isn't worth $2 million.
