HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Hockey Talk by Country > Germany
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Why can't German Hockey meet the same level of competency as German Football?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2010, 11:22 AM
  #26
james bond
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokechecker View Post
No, I don't think that Germany will catch up to 7th place with today's structure, today's program and today's teachers. I definitely think that they can keep up with what they have now and probably can push but not overtake the direct opponents. I think it can be - actually it must be - a realistic target to go for 7th in world-ranking. This doesn't need a revolution and a multimillion-euro-campaign. I guess it needs a world-class homebase with decent infrastructur and world-class teachers where the most talented young players have the possibility to improve. Maybe it's not realistic to have this full-year-around - because this would mean full-year school-academy also - but GER should build something for the best talents that they can have additional practice to what they have in their home-team. Additional practice with the best teachers from Germany and the one or the other world-class-teacher e.g. from the US- or Swedish program. These teachers also will have the target to make the best German teachers even better - so in the very end they could do all by themselves. These teachers have to work with the best talents from age 10-18 and give them the possibilities for extra-camps and some extra-months outside their clubs. The clubs still would have their players in the junior-championship-games but GER should in addition try to take part in the best junior-tournaments worldwide to improve and get important experience in games vs Canada, US, Sweden, Russi, Finland, Czech, Slovak, Swiss. This is NOT a perfect program but maybe a realistic one.

Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL
Do you see any of the needed infastructure getting built? If so, who would be likely to fund/build to build the infastructure?
I always thought it would be imperative to have more facilities. With the combination of increased enrollment and top teachers, it would be highly likely to suceed in reaching a higher level.
Do you think there is a possibility to have a program (youth) synonamous with Ajax football club that runs out of the Netherlands?
http://english.ajax.nl/

james bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2010, 12:25 PM
  #27
Pokechecker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by james bond View Post
Do you see any of the needed infastructure getting built? If so, who would be likely to fund/build to build the infastructure?
I always thought it would be imperative to have more facilities. With the combination of increased enrollment and top teachers, it would be highly likely to suceed in reaching a higher level.
Do you think there is a possibility to have a program (youth) synonamous with Ajax football club that runs out of the Netherlands?
http://english.ajax.nl/
What Ajax and Barcelona e.g. are doing in football is just fantastic but I guess it's not a realistic measure-stick for GER hockey-improvement. In my eyes GER has already a decent "Leistungszentrum" in Fuessen and I guess it's realistic to build on this, maybe adding an additional rink and some additional gyms, a simple guest-house and a good program with world-class-teachers. If you dig deeper into the talent-management-thing you will pretty soon find out that most of the world-class performers (in chess, tennis, music and so on) didn't grow up in perfect infrastuctur with golden conditions in terms of machines, perfect courts and five-star-services. The healthy ground for world-class performers is 1st of all the ability to play - means as much time on ice as possible, 2nd passion and the target to become the best and 3rd world-class teachers. So just put a simple additional ice-rink, give the kids as much ice as they need and want and let them play and fight in as many hockey-game-situations as possible, guided by world-class teachers. Thousands of hockey-game-situations build game-intelligence and hockey-sense, thousands of hours on the ice to improve skating and stickhandling with world-class teachers. We don't need 5-star everything (except teachers), just a 24-hours-ice-rink, decent food and some off-ice-possibilities (gym). In the end you need kids and parents who are prepared to put their kids in such an environment for 2 or 3 years, kids have to be prepared for sometimes brutal drills and - of course you have to do some cooperation with a local school, college, university to educate these kids also academically. It's not an attracitve program if you don't offer really good schooling also because more than 90% of the kids in such a program never will become very well payed hockey-players even if you have world-class teachers. These my off-hand first thoughts about possbile German hockey-improvements.

Thomas Roost
Central Scouting Europe / NHL

Pokechecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2010, 01:52 PM
  #28
james bond
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
An interesting article in relation to the conversation..
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/n...ash=2627d0da96

Of course, with building an additional 25 rinks over the next 5 years, you still won't see results at the international stage for 15- 25 years. Then again, the sooner you get started the quicker you see results.

james bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2010, 07:55 PM
  #29
HockeyInsider87
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by james bond View Post
An interesting article in relation to the conversation..
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/n...ash=2627d0da96

Of course, with building an additional 25 rinks over the next 5 years, you still won't see results at the international stage for 15- 25 years. Then again, the sooner you get started the quicker you see results.
Interesting read for sure. It's one approach that can be taken. Another route is more simple and less costly. Build outdoor rinks all over the country where kids can just go out and have fun and develop their skills. Isn't this the way Football players are developed? Give them a ball and some open space and let them learn their skills. Same goes for hockey.

The sport of hockey will grow because it's the best sport in the world. It might not have the drama of Football but is jammed with a lot more excitement and eye popping action during the game. Open the door for kids and build from the grass route level up. All this talk about competing on the international stage and gaining tv coverage is premature. Build the foundation and you will be surprised just how fast the game will grow.

HockeyInsider87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 05:09 AM
  #30
ts
Registered User
 
ts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyInsider87 View Post
Interesting read for sure. It's one approach that can be taken. Another route is more simple and less costly. Build outdoor rinks all over the country where kids can just go out and have fun and develop their skills. Isn't this the way Football players are developed? Give them a ball and some open space and let them learn their skills. Same goes for hockey.

The sport of hockey will grow because it's the best sport in the world. It might not have the drama of Football but is jammed with a lot more excitement and eye popping action during the game. Open the door for kids and build from the grass route level up. All this talk about competing on the international stage and gaining tv coverage is premature. Build the foundation and you will be surprised just how fast the game will grow.
How would it be so easy? Most kids in Germany don't have skates, they don't have any kind of relationship to hockey.
I share your feeling about hockey being more exiting than for example soccer. But afterall this is a question of personal taste. I think most German sport fans would disagree with us both, even many of those who saw some hockey games.

I guess if you bild a soccer field, a basketball court, an aritifical beach and an ice rink in the same area (in a no-hockey-"hotspot"), 60% of the kids over here would meet at the soccer field, 20% at the basketball court and 15% at the beach to play beach volleyball (the later maybe even more nowadays). If they get skates at the rink for free there might some kids take them, but most of them for simple ice skating.

Overall I agree with some other posters here.
You have to build interest in hockey first, otherwise you will atract only a few kids to the sport. First step should be to show at least some reports from your domestic league in the free tv or even better some live games.
In the last season the only nationwide hockey shows were for the Olympic Games, the IIHF world cup and once a week reports from the 2. Eishockey Bundesliga on DSF with whopping 30 min. for a whole league includig 10 minutes with commercials on a Saturday afternoon. That's it. With DSF becoming Sport 1 I don't know if they will actually continue to show at least that. Oh, I nearly forgot, Eurosport showed 2 DEL-games as a testcase. 2.... of a whole season including playoffs.
How are the kids suppossed to dream of playing hockey with this?

Other then in some regional places (Schwenningen, Landhut,Köln,...) hockey in Germany is practically a hidden sport. I grew up near a city with an 3rd/4th tier hockey club, a 3rd tier soccer club (later they played 1 season in the Bundesliga, 2 in the 2nd Bundesliga and then got relegated to a 5th league), a 1st/2nd league basketball club and some nonprofessional and one semiprofessional field handball team(s) (city is Ulm,, ca. 120.000 citizens). The clubs that drew attention and young kids with interesst in the sport are (in order) football, basketball, field handball, volleyball (don't know how professional they were at that time). Hockey is competing with table tennis, Judo/Taekwondo and other smaller sports in regards to attractiveness to kids. Building a rink only for hockey won't change anything there.


Last edited by ts: 07-14-2010 at 05:36 AM.
ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 05:13 AM
  #31
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
I think in some countries would be better to start playing hockey-ball (you need only almost any in-line skates and stick) or floor-ball (just stick) what would increase the popularity of hockey.
Of course there should be some infrastructure.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 05:18 AM
  #32
ts
Registered User
 
ts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
...
Of course there should be some infrastructure.
If you mean that in regards to infrastructure for ice hockey:

"some" infrastructure is often there, at least in the big and middle cities. It's not good enough because you have to share the rinks, but the cities won't build more rinks without interest in the sport to support the rinks. You have to strenghten the demand first, otherwise they will take the money and put it into building and supporting tennis and basketball courts, sport halls or further soccer fields, because there seems to be more interest in these sports (active playing, not attendance for the leagues).

ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 09:46 AM
  #33
james bond
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Is there no interest for adult league hockey in Germany?

james bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 12:09 PM
  #34
JVR
HeadHitsAreNotIllega
 
JVR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,220
vCash: 500
Not really. At least not enough to make newly built rinks profitable.

JVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 12:24 PM
  #35
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,858
vCash: 500
There´s a few things said in this topic that I personally disagree with:
Someone mentioned the immigrants- but I have to as do you really consider the German kids so untalented that a country of 70+ million inhabitans could not compete in a sport where the majority of the countries (except for US and Russia) are much smaller than Germany actually is? Even if you believe this, it still is possible to make the sport interesting to immigrant kids whose original countries have no tradition of the sport- look at were some of the North American players have their roots, many in countries where hockey is almost not played at all.

Furthermore infractructure and making the sport more popular- that of course needs to be done. However I´m not sure that it is what Germany needs to improve it´s competitivness. IMO while Germany still has less players than USA, CAN, SWE, FIN, RUS and CZE, it already today has a few mor thousands player than Switzerland and much more than Slovakia or any of the other countries competing in the top division, who all have around +/- 4 thousands of players. This makes me wonder whether to actually be competitive Germany rather doesn´t have to work better with what it already has than create new.

And finally - floorball and ball hockey, I don´t think it´s good for improving interest in hockey- IMO the Czech actually complain that florball has taken a lot of kids from hockey as it is much much cheaper to play.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 12:59 PM
  #36
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
I don´t think it´s good for improving interest in hockey- IMO the Czech actually complain that florball has taken a lot of kids from hockey as it is much much cheaper to play.
It´s not fault of the sport when talented kid cannt play hockey due to cost of equipment.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 01:17 PM
  #37
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
It´s not fault of the sport when talented kid cannt play hockey due to cost of equipment.
That wa snot my point- my point was that the kids that will play florball won´t play hockey as well in most cases.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #38
ts
Registered User
 
ts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post

Furthermore infractructure and making the sport more popular- that of course needs to be done. However I´m not sure that it is what Germany needs to improve it´s competitivness. IMO while Germany still has less players than USA, CAN, SWE, FIN, RUS and CZE, it already today has a few mor thousands player than Switzerland and much more than Slovakia or any of the other countries competing in the top division, who all have around +/- 4 thousands of players. This makes me wonder whether to actually be competitive Germany rather doesn´t have to work better with what it already has than create new.
Numbers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey. Dunno how accurate these numbers are, but seemingly, Germany has in fact more registered hockey players than Switzerland and much more than Slovakia.

[country] [registered players] [% of Population]
Canada 499,695 1.50%
United States 465,975 0.15%
Czech Republic 97,102 0.95%
Russia 84,720 0.06%
Finland 61,684 1.18%
Sweden 60,374 0.67%
Germany 28,967 0.06%
Switzerland 24,705 0.33%
Japan 21,027 0.02%
France 17,133 0.03%
Austria 10,378 0.13%
Slovakia 8,671 0.16%

Obviously you're right and it's not only a numbers game.

One thing you have to take into account is the level of hockey played. The Swiss NLA/NLB system is much stronger than the German DEL and 2nd Eishockeybundesliga. My personal impression is, that even the level of nonprofessional/semiprofessional hockey is better in Switzerland. They have the adantage that there are far more rinks (I'm not denying that it is an advantage, I'm arguing that you have to strenghten the prestige and demand for hockey to attract more [young] players and then get more rinks) and better hockey education for the young players. And for me it seems that the players stay far longer with the sport than in Germany, maybe because it's easier to play if you have a hockey club in you town and don't have to drive 50 km to play or maybe because it's more accepted as a great sport and it's not seen as a weird thing to follow . In Germany many young players quit hockey after some years and switch to another sport (mostly soccer, what else).

For professionalls there are more spots for Swiss players on the top liens and they get more icetime because they are not allowed to play that many foreigners in the NLA compared to the DEL.

Only commenting on the comparison Switzerland - Germany because I visited Switzerland several times and watched more hockey in the Swiss league than in Germany .

How is it with Slovakia? Is the level of play that much better that they can compensate that they have roughly 1/3 of the player numbers of Germany? Or do they benefit from the Czechoslovakian years 1993?


Last edited by ts: 07-14-2010 at 01:30 PM.
ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2010, 02:52 PM
  #39
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts View Post
Numbers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey. Dunno how accurate these numbers are, but seemingly, Germany has in fact more registered hockey players than Switzerland and much more than Slovakia.

[country] [registered players] [% of Population]
Canada 499,695 1.50%
United States 465,975 0.15%
Czech Republic 97,102 0.95%
Russia 84,720 0.06%
Finland 61,684 1.18%
Sweden 60,374 0.67%
Germany 28,967 0.06%
Switzerland 24,705 0.33%
Japan 21,027 0.02%
France 17,133 0.03%
Austria 10,378 0.13%
Slovakia 8,671 0.16%

Obviously you're right and it's not only a numbers game.

One thing you have to take into account is the level of hockey played. The Swiss NLA/NLB system is much stronger than the German DEL and 2nd Eishockeybundesliga. My personal impression is, that even the level of nonprofessional/semiprofessional hockey is better in Switzerland. They have the adantage that there are far more rinks (I'm not denying that it is an advantage, I'm arguing that you have to strenghten the prestige and demand for hockey to attract more [young] players and then get more rinks) and better hockey education for the young players. And for me it seems that the players stay far longer with the sport than in Germany, maybe because it's easier to play if you have a hockey club in you town and don't have to drive 50 km to play or maybe because it's more accepted as a great sport and it's not seen as a weird thing to follow . In Germany many young players quit hockey after some years and switch to another sport (mostly soccer, what else).

For professionalls there are more spots for Swiss players on the top liens and they get more icetime because they are not allowed to play that many foreigners in the NLA compared to the DEL.

Only commenting on the comparison Switzerland - Germany because I visited Switzerland several times and watched more hockey in the Swiss league than in Germany .

How is it with Slovakia? Is the level of play that much better that they can compensate that they have roughly 1/3 of the player numbers of Germany? Or do they benefit from the Czechoslovakian years 1993?
Mostly benefiting from the old Czechoslovakia hockey system- most current players still grew up in it, similar things though could be said about the Czechs to a lesser extent though. Though some like to say that Slovaks just have hockey in their blood since even with so little players we produced so many great players (even though there used to be more players, SVK never had as many players as the other top Euro countries) and even with the programme sucking we still manage to produce some top players like Tatar, Pánik or Jurčo.

As for the numbers, they seem to be similar with the ones I´ve got and in that case it´s from the IIHF 2009 Survey of players. Those numbers I believe are the numbers of players registered with the countries´ federation. I´m not sure how it works with the other federations, but as far as I know over here the kids don´t get registered with SZĽH until they start 5th grade meaning that the 5-9 year old kids that actually play hockey aren´t counted in those 8 671, some teams have around 100 kids in this age groups so there´s probably more than 10 000 players actually playing over here.

One mor einteresting thing I looked at the numbers of senior and juvenille players and for most of the countries around +/-65% of the players are juvenille (including Germany), except for the Czechs (barely more than 30%, which has to do with the fact how much the interest in playing hockey has fallen in this last few years) and Slovakia and Belarus, which have 75% and 80% respectivelly. With Belarus it probably has to do with building new rinks and growing the sport (though I´m still surprised they´ve got less than 4 000 players overall), as for Slovakia I´m not sure whether it means a good thing, IMO it could easily be just an effect of how little players actually compete in juniors.

Which leads us to the competitivness, where we have a similar problem to Germany, the Slovak Extraliga is at best roughly around DEL level and the league below that 1.liga is much closer to the Polish or Hungarian leagues than competitive hockey. And when there finally are some good young players after one succesful year they´re already gone at least to the Czech Extraliga or now to the KHL. The league is pretty much dominated by the two biggest teams Slovan Bratislava and HC Košice, because the other teams often barely have money to actually play at all yet alone to put together a good team.

Also, the infrastructure is also lacking with only 45 rinks and most of them were built back in the 1970´s. I remember right after the WC win in 2002, Ján Filc said that we should build 10 rinks over the few next years, at that time there was round 40 rinks. Since then there was one new rink built (where only an amateur adult team plays), Marián Gáborik built one and a few of the lower league teams transformed their outdoor rinks to indoor rinks. Though lately there have been a bunch of plans from various private investors to built a few new rinks, but it´s cmplicated in this country, usually you have to wait a few years to see whether something will be built at all.

However, it´s not just the trouble with infrastructure, it also has to do with the faling interest in hockey and sport overall amnogst kids as well as the fact that the sport is too expensive as well as with coaches of not the best level. Also before there used to be something called "Centrá talentovanej mládeže" (centers of talented youth), which is somethign similar as Pokechecker said that Germany should introduce, but they got closed down. (They actually still work in some of the other sports.)

I don´t give many positives thoughts on here regarding the Slovak federation much, but the general belief is that things got at least slightly better than in the 1990´s, for example one of their sponsors gave full equipment to 1000 of the youngest players all over the country over 3 year starting from 2006 and this year they started a new programme which also helps the youth teams with equipment or other costs etc. The thing is that in the end the biggest part in bringing up the kids is to the teams.

The lack of rinks also creates a lack of teams, especially in Eastern Slovakia where for example in the 2nd tier school leagues there are only three teams with a Polish team included. There´s also no national U16 leaguea probably due to the lack os sponsorship as most teams probably wouldn´t have the money to travel across the country, so the leagues is played separetely in the West, Centre and East of the country with a small final tournament. This leads to the fact that between the U12-U16 categories the best players from one region rarely play against the best teams from the other regions. In the West or Centre it´s not as bad because around 6-7 teams can compete with each other, but in the East there are only 3-4 good teams that blow out all the others.

In my mind the best hope for Slovak hockey is using the 2011 WHC as much as possible for a hockey reawakening in the country and use the money from the revenues etc. to build new rinks and for the yout hockey programmes. Glen Hanlon, who has been appointed the Slovak NT coach this year has also said that he is also very interested in yout hockey and he has also mentioned that SZĽH wants to create a system of scouting for the U15 players and he has told fans that he also has some other ideas etc. The general belief is that the fate of Slovak hockey lays upon Hanlon´s shoulders.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 11:45 AM
  #40
HockeyInsider87
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ts View Post
How would it be so easy? Most kids in Germany don't have skates, they don't have any kind of relationship to hockey.
I share your feeling about hockey being more exiting than for example soccer. But afterall this is a question of personal taste. I think most German sport fans would disagree with us both, even many of those who saw some hockey games.

I guess if you bild a soccer field, a basketball court, an aritifical beach and an ice rink in the same area (in a no-hockey-"hotspot"), 60% of the kids over here would meet at the soccer field, 20% at the basketball court and 15% at the beach to play beach volleyball (the later maybe even more nowadays). If they get skates at the rink for free there might some kids take them, but most of them for simple ice skating.

Overall I agree with some other posters here.
You have to build interest in hockey first, otherwise you will atract only a few kids to the sport. First step should be to show at least some reports from your domestic league in the free tv or even better some live games.
In the last season the only nationwide hockey shows were for the Olympic Games, the IIHF world cup and once a week reports from the 2. Eishockey Bundesliga on DSF with whopping 30 min. for a whole league includig 10 minutes with commercials on a Saturday afternoon. That's it. With DSF becoming Sport 1 I don't know if they will actually continue to show at least that. Oh, I nearly forgot, Eurosport showed 2 DEL-games as a testcase. 2.... of a whole season including playoffs.
How are the kids suppossed to dream of playing hockey with this?

Other then in some regional places (Schwenningen, Landhut,Köln,...) hockey in Germany is practically a hidden sport. I grew up near a city with an 3rd/4th tier hockey club, a 3rd tier soccer club (later they played 1 season in the Bundesliga, 2 in the 2nd Bundesliga and then got relegated to a 5th league), a 1st/2nd league basketball club and some nonprofessional and one semiprofessional field handball team(s) (city is Ulm,, ca. 120.000 citizens). The clubs that drew attention and young kids with interesst in the sport are (in order) football, basketball, field handball, volleyball (don't know how professional they were at that time). Hockey is competing with table tennis, Judo/Taekwondo and other smaller sports in regards to attractiveness to kids. Building a rink only for hockey won't change anything there.
Again, I didn't start this thread to discuss hockey over-taking Football as a national pass time in Germany. I see an upward trend in quality of players in Germany but not an overall improvement in infastructure, short term or long term plans to get their hockey to the next level of competency.

If you look back or read history on the evolution of any popular sport it all started from kids playing the game in an open field, on a frozen pond or on a driveway or paved surface of some sort. You can't build a better program from the top down - it has to be built from the ground up. Does Germany not have any leaders in sport who can organize, structure and upgrade hockey at all levels? Any leaders? 28,000 hockey players is pretty impressive and there is no doubt that with a properly structured initiative this total could easily be brought to 100,000 or more.

Back to my point - "build it and they will come". If each town and city were to build one outdoor ice surface there is absolutely no doubt more kids would buy or rent skates and fall in love with the game. The rest would take care of itself. That's exactly where we were in the USA 40 years ago. I doubt we had 28,000 players in the entire USA back then. Now we have almost as many as Canada. Hockey is growing in places like Florida and California and we even have pro players that come from these hot weather states. Germany could be and should be able to compete. It's all about leadership and proper direction.


Last edited by HockeyInsider87: 07-15-2010 at 11:47 AM. Reason: spelling
HockeyInsider87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.