HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Gazette - Questions Linger about Halak Trade

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-15-2010, 09:41 AM
  #376
Perrah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I hear what you're saying, but the Habs faced 2630 shots last season. I reckon absolutely no one has each of those shots ranked from 1 to 2630 in terms of degree of difficulty. That's why the shot counts and charts are relevant. As long as the sample size is sufficiently large, all shooting situations (being rushed/having an extra second, screen/no screen, pass in an obvious shooting situation/shoot in an obvious passing situation, stick lifted/puck bounced off a skate... they all get evened out. Bringing up a handful of occasions where each guy faced something "out of the ordinary" (Price's "bad luck" bounces, Halak facing 40+ shots) doesn't outweigh the 95% of the time when the situation, and how they have to react to it, is "nominal" and it's up to them to simply put in another day at the office.

Again, if the sample size is large enough (half a season is definitely sufficient), you should be able to take goaltending stats at pretty much face value without having to rely on whatever "context" the memory of a couple dozen odd instances seems to offer.
No doubt it does average out but IMO price had like atleast 10 games with ****** bounce goals thats about 25% of the games he played. I agree the shot charts are definitely relevant and the law of averages will win but like I said it doesnt really show the situation (wide open or being stick checked while getting off a weak shot). So to sum it all up I think we agree for the most part.

Edit: I wasnt trying to compare the two goalies or make up the difference in their sv % I was just talking in general to the guy.

Perrah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 09:45 AM
  #377
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
No doubt it does average out but IMO price had like atleast 10 games with ****** bounce goals thats about 25% of the games he played. I agree the shot charts are relevant but like I said it doesnt really show the situation (wide open or being stick checked while getting off a weak shot). So to sum it all up I think we agree for the most part.
I posted interesting statistics on the other page. It had a list of goalie's save % and GAA during losses. Price was top 5 in both categories for best during losses. What that means I don't know because goalies do have worse stats during losses than wins, but Price's stats are among the best in the loss category. What it could mean I don't know, but it's interesting because he lost the majority of his games, but in many of those games he had good stats like the Nashville, San Jose, Buffalo games, but came out with a loss. Should take a look at it.

Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 09:47 AM
  #378
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrah View Post
No doubt it does average out but IMO price had like atleast 10 games with ****** bounce goals thats about 25% of the games he played. I agree the shot charts are definitely relevant and the law of averages will win but like I said it doesnt really show the situation (wide open or being stick checked while getting off a weak shot). So to sum it all up I think we agree for the most part.

Edit: I wasnt trying to compare the two goalies or make up the difference in their sv % I was just talking in general to the guy.
Yeah, but even if I grant you those 10 goals (I think it's fewer, but that's just memory vs memory, not fact), that is still far under 1% of the total shots he faced all year... Hurts his GAA, partly for the reasons you have provided thus far, but the SV% comes from a much, much larger sample.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 09:50 AM
  #379
Perrah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, but even if I grant you those 10 goals (I think it's fewer, but that's just memory vs memory, not fact), that is still far under 1% of the total shots he faced all year... Hurts his GAA, partly for the reasons you have provided thus far, but the SV% comes from a much, much larger sample.
For sure, it evens out with easy games vs the games you have alot of quality chances for sv %. I would hope for price to have better luck this upcoming season and weed out the odd lapse to increase his sv % some. And yeah I dont know how many games it was actually just seemed like it happened alot at the start of the season.

Perrah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 09:55 AM
  #380
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I posted interesting statistics on the other page. It had a list of goalie's save % and GAA during losses. Price was top 5 in both categories for best during losses. What that means I don't know because goalies do have worse stats during losses than wins, but Price's stats are among the best in the loss category. What it could mean I don't know, but it's interesting because he lost the majority of his games, but in many of those games he had good stats like the Nashville, San Jose, Buffalo games, but came out with a loss. Should take a look at it.
What that means, no one will know. Maybe it means Montreal collapses into a defensive shell when he starts. Maybe it's too complicated to distill down any further. In any event, for each of those Nashville, San Jose, and Buffalo games, there is an Edmonton, Ottawa, Tampa Bay or Atlanta game in which he put up 18/21, 20/23, 25/30, or 16/19 (saves/shots) performances over 60 minutes, so I wouldn't knock yourself out looking into it too deeply. Again, in the end when it all "averages out", it's fairly easy to see that Price simply wasn't as good (nor as consistent) as Halak last year (by an observable, yet perhaps less than wide margin). Nothing more to see here, I think.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 10:01 AM
  #381
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What that means, no one will know. Maybe it means Montreal collapses into a defensive shell when he starts. Maybe it's too complicated to distill down any further. In any event, for each of those Nashville, San Jose, and Buffalo games, there is an Edmonton, Ottawa, Tampa Bay or Atlanta game in which he put up 18/21, 20/23, 25/30, or 16/19 (saves/shots) performances over 60 minutes, so I wouldn't knock yourself out looking into it too deeply. Again, in the end when it all "averages out", it's fairly easy to see that Price simply wasn't as good (nor as consistent) as Halak last year (by an observable, yet perhaps less than wide margin). Nothing more to see here, I think.
Well the stat was not put there to compare Price to Halak. I don't get what the obesssion is to compare them both when the person you are responding to isn't comparing. I just really don't think Price played as bad as people made it out to be, he just didn't play as good as Halak. Like after the olympic break, Price played 5 games, but had only win, yet his stats were spectacular, small sample size, but that's just how his season went.

Price was unlucky many times, others he lost his concentration, but there we many games like the Colorado game earlier where every shot had a weird bounce and went, like the one where Spacek was 3 feet away from the net horizontally, yet the puck still managed to hit Spacek and go in. Or the Carolina game where Hamrlik dove on a two on one to put the puck in his own net, or the one where Mara slashed price across the neck. There's just too many of these to just call it his fault.

Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 10:26 AM
  #382
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Well the stat was not put there to compare Price to Halak. I don't get what the obesssion is to compare them both when the person you are responding to isn't comparing. I just really don't think Price played as bad as people made it out to be, he just didn't play as good as Halak. Like after the olympic break, Price played 5 games, but had only win, yet his stats were spectacular, small sample size, but that's just how his season went.

Price was unlucky many times, others he lost his concentration, but there we many games like the Colorado game earlier where every shot had a weird bounce and went, like the one where Spacek was 3 feet away from the net horizontally, yet the puck still managed to hit Spacek and go in. Or the Carolina game where Hamrlik dove on a two on one to put the puck in his own net, or the one where Mara slashed price across the neck. There's just too many of these to just call it his fault.
It's not about "comparing" head-to-head necessarily, nor assigning "blame". It's about "context", and let's face it: it's fairly obvious that many posters around here are much, MUCH more familiar with the Canadiens than the rest of the league. So, it's easiest (and ideally most effective) to keep the reference frame constant (in this case: tending goal for the team with which the majority is more familiar).

And there weren't "many" games where "every shot was a weird bounce"... hardly any, in fact. I remember laughing when someone mentioned going back and counting all the "fluke" goals against Price. I was thinking the same thing now that I was then: what about the other 1000+ shots that "should" have been "routine", and how many of those goals does he ACTUALLY have versus Halak? 5 to 1? 10 to 3? 20 to 9?

I've never said Price had a poor season (like you said: just not as good as Halak), but it's funny that those who say he did talk about confidence, watching him play and letting in soft/untimely goals, while those who say he didn't point to the fact that his stats weren't that bad. Seems like the flip side of how it's being argued here with all the talk of not trusting stats, etc.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2010, 10:32 AM
  #383
jnthomas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 679
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to jnthomas
I think both goalies are pretty much on par right now (one is younger but blah blah). The big difference both goalies last season was that Price played the majority of his games without Markov in the line up while Halak played the majority of his games with Markov in the line up.

jnthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2010, 08:37 AM
  #384
saints96
Registered User
 
saints96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,929
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnthomas View Post
I think both goalies are pretty much on par right now (one is younger but blah blah). The big difference both goalies last season was that Price played the majority of his games without Markov in the line up while Halak played the majority of his games with Markov in the line up.
good point.

saints96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2010, 08:43 AM
  #385
subbanged
Gal-Sub-Price-Pacio
 
subbanged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 4,445
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
who is this question directed to?
too You

subbanged is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.