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Old
07-13-2010, 08:27 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Good idea considering Lamb will probably be in the box the most of anyone outside of Jonathan.



What about:
Halderson - Samuelsson
Dvorak - Wilson

Or is Samuelsson (or Dvorak) unable the handle the minutes with this set up?
I think Kjell Samuelsson can handle 2nd pairing minutes, but see what others think too.

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Old
07-13-2010, 08:29 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Regarding Sheppard here is the link showing he is LW http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4918

More to come tomorrow once I get to work, I have to settle in and catch the Hills.
Huh.

legendsofhockey and hockey-reference both have him exclusively as a center. But that link has him exclusively as a LW. Strange.

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Old
07-13-2010, 08:32 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Regarding Sheppard here is the link showing he is LW http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4918

More to come tomorrow once I get to work, I have to settle in and catch the Hills.



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Old
07-13-2010, 10:04 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Regarding Sheppard here is the link showing he is LW http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4918

More to come tomorrow once I get to work, I have to settle in and catch the Hills.
It's a good thing this isn't a "Taste in TV Shows" assassination thread.

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Old
07-13-2010, 11:09 PM
  #130
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Wow. A lot to catch up on. Sorry guys, I was away since Friday.

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Old
07-14-2010, 03:59 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

I question the strategy of making two players who were rarely top pairing players, top pairing guys in the MLD. Macoun was ranked 2, 2, 5, 5, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 3, 5, 3, 5, 7 in icetime on his team. (average of best 8 seasons: 2.25) Gregg was 5, 3, 5, 3, 2, 7, 5, 3, 8 on his (admittedly, usually deep) teams (4.13 avg). But Dave Babych was ranked 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 (behind Carlyle), 3 (Carlyle, Ellett), 2 (Samuelsson), 2 (Samuelsson), 2 (Samuelsson), 1, 6, 3, 1, 4, 1, 2, 3, 8, 8 in his career in icetime. This is your #1 guy - a guy who actually was a #1, seven times and a #2 five times (8y avg: 1.13). Gusarov, in case you are wondering, ranked 6, 2, 3, 2, 5, 3, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3 (avg: 3.00) I urge you to make Dave Babych a #1 defenseman. He's better than Macoun and Gregg; his coaches knew it.
What were their ranking in even strength ice time? Comparing the ice time of an offensive defenseman like Babych with a defensive defenseman like Macoun is not an apples-to-apples thing. Babych probably played the majority of the powerplay, maybe even the whole thing. PP minutes are not particularly taxing on a defenseman. On the other hand, a defensive guy like Macoun was probably his team's first or second option on the PK, minutes which are much tougher on a defenseman.

I would not say that Babych was better than Macoun based strictly on this ice time analysis; I'd say it was probably a tossup.

An example of this is NJ during the height of their quasi-dynasty. Niedermayer saw more overall ice time than Stevens, but Stevens saw much more PK time and much tougher minutes against better competition at even strength. There was no question that Stevens was the #1 defenseman on the team.

I agree with you about Gregg, though. He was apparently a very good depth defenseman on a dynasty; but I'm not sold on him as a top pairing guy.

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Old
07-14-2010, 04:55 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What were their ranking in even strength ice time? Comparing the ice time of an offensive defenseman like Babych with a defensive defenseman like Macoun is not an apples-to-apples thing. Babych probably played the majority of the powerplay, maybe even the whole thing. PP minutes are not particularly taxing on a defenseman. On the other hand, a defensive guy like Macoun was probably his team's first or second option on the PK, minutes which are much tougher on a defenseman.

I would not say that Babych was better than Macoun based strictly on this ice time analysis; I'd say it was probably a tossup.

An example of this is NJ during the height of their quasi-dynasty. Niedermayer saw more overall ice time than Stevens, but Stevens saw much more PK time and much tougher minutes against better competition at even strength. There was no question that Stevens was the #1 defenseman on the team.

I agree with you about Gregg, though. He was apparently a very good depth defenseman on a dynasty; but I'm not sold on him as a top pairing guy.
OK, good point. let me run those numbers again based strictly on ES figures.

Macoun: 7, 1, 1, 2, 1, 3, 3, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 2, 6.
Babych: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 5, 4, 3, 3, 6, 5, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, 8, 4.

Sorted out:

Macoun: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 7.
Babych: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8.

So they were practically even in terms of how much they were relied on at even strength. Of course, Babych was a major PP guy and Macoun wasn't, so after special teams are accounted for, Babych did get a lot more icetime.

I guess it is fine having Macoun getting top pairing minutes at ES, but VI should have Babych on both special teams and Macoun on just one, giving Babych more TOI in total. That's how I think he should do it, anyways.

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07-14-2010, 07:23 AM
  #133
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In regards to Sheppard being on the top line, I fail to see the difference between Sheppard being used as a glue guy and Drury and MacAdam (quick glance) being used as a top line LW glue guy. None of the 3 have top 10's in any scoring statistic, but they are there for their defensive presence and hard work in the corners.

As well sheppard is no slouch offensively, he has the highest adjusted PPG out of the three, but more importantly has 72 career playoff points in 82 games. Including leading the 73-74 Bruins (With Orr, Esposito, Hodge, Cashman etc.. in their prime) in scoring when they made the cup finals.

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Old
07-14-2010, 07:42 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OK, good point. let me run those numbers again based strictly on ES figures.

Macoun: 7, 1, 1, 2, 1, 3, 3, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 2, 6.
Babych: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 5, 4, 3, 3, 6, 5, 1, 4, 1, 1, 1, 8, 4.

Sorted out:

Macoun: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 7.
Babych: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8.

So they were practically even in terms of how much they were relied on at even strength. Of course, Babych was a major PP guy and Macoun wasn't, so after special teams are accounted for, Babych did get a lot more icetime.

I guess it is fine having Macoun getting top pairing minutes at ES, but VI should have Babych on both special teams and Macoun on just one, giving Babych more TOI in total. That's how I think he should do it, anyways.
That's the plan.

Notice: Macoun was always top-3 in even minutes played except for his rookie and last season whereas Babych was six times outside the top-3 dmen on his team in even strength minutes played not including his last season! I don't like to use stats for two guys I've watched play their entire careers (not that I watched a heck of a lot except when their teams played teams I liked) and I wouldn't believe any stats which leads anyone to think Babych was a better player than Macoun because it simply wasn't true, or else I and many I have known were wrong in our opinions, which more stats-focussed guys have before done, bucked popular opinion in favour of numbers).

Though both players were often #1 on their team in even strength minutes, Macoun played on better teams than Babych, not as a mere passenger, but as a #1 in minutes played at even strength player!!!

Macoun was top pairing of some excellent Flames and Leafs teams, going twice to the Stanley Cup Finals with Calgary and twice to the conference finals with Toronto, a remarkable 159 playoff games in all. He was a solid stay at home defenseman with a decent first pass, known to be NASTY and dirty, but only when necessary, wise PIMs. Both Macoun and Young will be on the pk but not the pp.

Babych played more offensively, surging to join the rush, in his days in Winnipeg and Hartford, limited in playoff success until his 13th NHL season when he joined the Canucks and provided a more veteran overall rounded game.

Macoun was respected more than Babych, and certainly had a larger role on more successful teams. But Babych can play in more situations, has a more diversified career, fills multiple roles. That said, I would draft Macoun as a solid #5/6 guy in the main ATD but wouldn't consider Babych except maybe a younger Babych for the #7 slot depth pp guy.

Macoun and Gusarov are the best two dmen on the Texas Brahmas. Gusarov is on the 2nd pairing because he plays both special teams units like Babych will (ideally a younger Babych on the pp and an older Babych on the pk hee, hee).


Last edited by VanIslander: 07-14-2010 at 07:52 AM.
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Old
07-14-2010, 11:31 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
In regards to Sheppard being on the top line, I fail to see the difference between Sheppard being used as a glue guy and Drury and MacAdam (quick glance) being used as a top line LW glue guy. None of the 3 have top 10's in any scoring statistic, but they are there for their defensive presence and hard work in the corners.
Personally, I wouldn't want any of them on my first line. I prefer my first line glue guys to have significant scoring credentials, too. But I realize that opinions are mixed on that (for instance, in the main draft, I would never use John Tonelli on a first line, but he is regularly used in that role).

Quote:
As well sheppard is no slouch offensively, he has the highest adjusted PPG out of the three, but more importantly has 72 career playoff points in 82 games. Including leading the 73-74 Bruins (With Orr, Esposito, Hodge, Cashman etc.. in their prime) in scoring when they made the cup finals.
I'll say the same thing I did with Drury. All the opponent's best checkers were focused on the stars of the team, which gave Sheppard a chance to come through in the clutch from a lower line. That's huge for your team, but will he be able to do the same on the top line, facing the best checkers? On the other hand, it's the MLD and all the very best checkers were already drafted in the ATD.

Edit: I'm not sure what the Bruins lines were, but Sheppard did play wing for them, so he's definitely a C/LW.

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Old
07-14-2010, 01:46 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
As well sheppard is no slouch offensively, he has the highest adjusted PPG out of the three, .
no he doesn't...

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Old
07-14-2010, 01:49 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Macoun and Gusarov are the best two dmen on the Texas Brahmas. Gusarov is on the 2nd pairing because he plays both special teams units like Babych will (ideally a younger Babych on the pp and an older Babych on the pk hee, hee).
Wow, you are REALLY high on Gusarov, I don't get it.

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Old
07-14-2010, 09:49 PM
  #138
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Thank you for the review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I like shibicky as a 1st liner. However, isn't he a RW?
Shibicky was a left winger on the Bread line with the Colvilles at center and right wing. Should I move him to right wing just because he played there later in his career, after his glory days? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Skene Ronan is out of place as a 1st liner. I see a guy who was 3rd, 9th ,10th, 12th in NHA scoring (a half-league). He doesn't look much better than Bruce Ridpath, who we discussed extensively and who appears to be a barely passable 2nd liner. What do you know about him that I don't?
I thought top-10 in NHA career scoring was worth something. Most of the players on the list are drafted high and on scoring lines.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Nilsson is an excellent MLD 1st liner, one of the premier talents here.
So I should move him back to center instead of his less played right wing. Alright.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You took a LONG time to start picking D-men. And it shows. Marty Burke and Bob Murray form a pretty below average 1st pairing.
I disagree. My list of defensemen wasn't eaten into so much as many strange picks were made by some teams. I chose an important defensive defenseman in two Habs Stanley Cup championships and a 2nd-alltime in points Blackhawks defender with 514 points in 1008 games, still 6th all time. He also was considered a team leader and had 56 points in 112 playoff games. I'm happy with the blueline just the way it is.

Alternative possible forward lines if the coach sees things your way:

Alex Shibicky - Kent Nilsson - Serge Bernier
Steve Vickers - Dennis Maruk - Alex Kovalev
Butch Keeling - Rick Meagher - Claude Larose
Jack McDonald - Billy McGimsie - Rob Niedermayer
Forbes Kennedy, Skene Ronan

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Old
07-14-2010, 11:27 PM
  #139
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That said, I would draft Macoun as a solid #5/6 guy in the main ATD but wouldn't consider Babych except maybe a younger Babych for the #7 slot depth pp guy.
By the way, I meant to say earlier that I agree with this; even though I thought Babych was better (which I definitely question now)I would be much more likely to take Macoun as a #6 than Babych, which is why he got my vote.

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Originally Posted by Zamboni Mania View Post
Shibicky was a left winger on the Bread line with the Colvilles at center and right wing. Should I move him to right wing just because he played there later in his career, after his glory days? I don't think so.
Fair enough. I guess you are right. I just need to update my files to say he was also a LW, or even primarily a LW.


Quote:
I thought top-10 in NHA career scoring was worth something. Most of the players on the list are drafted high and on scoring lines.
True. The problem with that is, There is a pretty big gap on that list between the Malone/Pitre/Lalonde/Smith/Cleghorn/Roberts/Darragh part, and the Hyland/Ronan/Smith/McDonald/Russell/Nighbor part. And every other player on that list enjoyed a significant success in other leagues, either prior, in the ECHA, during, in the PCHA, or after, in the NHL. Ronan, though, had 16 points in 32 non-NHA games after going pro. So while it is true to say he was in the league of Hyland, Smith, McDonald, and Russell as an NHA player (offensively), he's not really in their league when full careers are considered.

We also really know nothing about how he played, which unfortunately does hurt his case in a time when so many clear pictures of other players are being constructed.

However, that's not to say I think he was a bad player at all. I only said he looked out of place on the first line. I certainly don't endorse him going down to be a spare. If that's what you insist, then I hope VI will allow me to resubmit my votes for the best spares and make Ronan #1 on the list.

Quote:
So I should move him back to center instead of his less played right wing. Alright.
Perhaps. Strange that you bring that up, because I meant to as well. I wasn't aware that he played any RW at all. (If he is a plausible RW, that raises his value as a player in my books because I'd hate to take him as a center again, but I'd love to take him as a talented winger for a strong two-way center.)

Quote:
I disagree. My list of defensemen wasn't eaten into so much as many strange picks were made by some teams. I chose an important defensive defenseman in two Habs Stanley Cup championships and a 2nd-alltime in points Blackhawks defender with 514 points in 1008 games, still 6th all time. He also was considered a team leader and had 56 points in 112 playoff games. I'm happy with the blueline just the way it is.
I'm not going to trash these guys and say they are bad. But I can't go through the 15 other lineups and see many other #1 and #2 guys that I'd take Burke or Murray over. Or anyone I'd take Shea Weber over. Let's be realistic here.

Quote:
Alternative possible forward lines if the coach sees things your way:

Alex Shibicky - Kent Nilsson - Serge Bernier
Steve Vickers - Dennis Maruk - Alex Kovalev
Butch Keeling - Rick Meagher - Claude Larose
Jack McDonald - Billy McGimsie - Rob Niedermayer
Forbes Kennedy, Skene Ronan
I wish there was a way to keep Ronan in the lineup. He's certainly worthy of a spot.

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Old
07-14-2010, 11:36 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post


I'm not going to trash these guys and say they are bad. But I can't go through the 15 other lineups and see many other #1 and #2 guys that I'd take Burke or Murray over. Or anyone I'd take Shea Weber over. Let's be realistic here.
Brian Campbell is his best defenseman, and I assume he will likely see the most ice time (I assume he'll play the majority of the PP too). But I like the fact that Campbell is on the 2nd pair, because Campbell is not a guy you want playing against the opponent's best lines.

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Old
07-15-2010, 07:25 AM
  #141
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It's probably late, but regarding TDMM's question about Lumme:

Lumme, Numminen and Johansson all started at roughly the same time. Numminen started same year as Lumme, but stayed around for 5 more years. Johansson started a year earlier and ended a year later. In the seasons their careers overlap Lumme's career, here's how they compare:
Lumme - Numminen - Johansson
GP: 985 (15th among NHL D-men in GP over that timespan) - 1098 (3rd) - 1030 (12th)
G: 114 (21st) - 108 (25th) - 115 (20th)
A: 354 (22nd) - 426 (13th) - 372 (18th)
PTS: 468 (23rd) - 534 (16th) - 487 (21st)
+/-: +76 (29th) - +42 (45th) - +40 (46th)

Lumme was also 16th in ESG and 5th in SHG over that timespan.

That's pretty comparable numbers, and make him IMO worthy of top pairing duty here.

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Old
07-15-2010, 03:51 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
It's probably late, but regarding TDMM's question about Lumme:

Lumme, Numminen and Johansson all started at roughly the same time. Numminen started same year as Lumme, but stayed around for 5 more years. Johansson started a year earlier and ended a year later. In the seasons their careers overlap Lumme's career, here's how they compare:
Lumme - Numminen - Johansson
GP: 985 (15th among NHL D-men in GP over that timespan) - 1098 (3rd) - 1030 (12th)
G: 114 (21st) - 108 (25th) - 115 (20th)
A: 354 (22nd) - 426 (13th) - 372 (18th)
PTS: 468 (23rd) - 534 (16th) - 487 (21st)
+/-: +76 (29th) - +42 (45th) - +40 (46th)

Lumme was also 16th in ESG and 5th in SHG over that timespan.

That's pretty comparable numbers, and make him IMO worthy of top pairing duty here.
+/- aside, Lumme was never considered to be in their league defensively. They were among the very best in the league, he was sometimes good, sometimes poor. He's one of many "specialists" that get into the MLD, such as Jeff Brown, Dave Babych, Bryan McCabe, John Van Boxmeer, and Joe Jerwa.

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