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Old
07-18-2010, 06:06 PM
  #101
Hackett
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
OK, so who is going to be the first to say that all this talk of Price's wonderful new attitude, which he must have cultivated since the end of Game 4 of the ECQF when he got two unsportsmanlike penalties for acting like a 13-year old kid, is just wishful thinking?

LAPIERRE, he is showing a good attitude. "I didn't have a great season last year, now is not the time to be greedy", he is quoted as saying.

It would be nice to hear similar words from Carey.

If the Habs hockey people are even thinking of succombing to the "potential" mirage and paying Carey more than $1.5M x 2 years, they should be fired. The key to success in a cap world is paying as little as you can for the guys you get. When you have the leverage and a guy has no arbitration rights and the league is swimming in goalies with .910 save percentages, you SECURE THE BENEFIT. Price's QO is under $1M. We should NOT be giving him much more.

It was one thing to "overpay" Lapierre by a token $60k in recognition of his attitude, but to overpay Price MILLIONS? Subban forbid!

It might behoove Gauthier to start publicly talking about a PLAN B now. Might smarten those folks up.
That salary you have listed is very unrealistic. I remember under the old CBA that you have to give a mandatory 10% raise in order for it to be a qualifying offer. I dont know if this rule has changed in the cap era, but seeing as Price made 2.2 million last season, and the habs qualified him, there's no possible way we are looking at 1.5 mil.

I'm thinking 3.0-3.5

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07-18-2010, 06:13 PM
  #102
SpezNc
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
That salary you have listed is very unrealistic. I remember under the old CBA that you have to give a mandatory 10% raise in order for it to be a qualifying offer. I dont know if this rule has changed in the cap era, but seeing as Price made 2.2 million last season, and the habs qualified him, there's no possible way we are looking at 1.5 mil.

I'm thinking 3.0-3.5
the bonus doesn't count for the QO..

his true base salary was around 900K

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07-18-2010, 06:15 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by SpezNc View Post
Like you said, you can twist the stats in order to prove your points. It's the beauty of stats...

But I have to disagree with you sentence:

Halak found ways to stop pucks, Price found a way to allow a bad goal.

In some games, Halak wasn't sharp at all.. very not... but his teamates were able to score more goals and he won..

In some games, Price was VERY VERY good but his teamates let in down... He then lost confidence...


I can resume the season that:

Everything that Halak was doing (even the bad one) was ending by a positive note

Everything that Price was doing (even the good one) was ending by a negative note

But in the end, the difference was not very big.
Again, we can potentially go back and forth all day with this...

Halak did have 5 shutouts. Price had none.

Halak had a .924sv%, while Price has a .912sv%. This is a big difference.

Those are very telling stats for a goaltender and are of serious interest. One could argue shutouts are also a team stat like GAA, and I agree with it to an extent. There was a few games where Price could have had a shut out this season if not for a weak goal though. This is fact. Has Halak done it too? Of course, every goalie has. But it seems like Halak was either ON or OFF, he was ON more often then OFF. Price on the other hand could go from ON to OFF in the middle of a game just by allowing one goal, his mental focus appears to be very weak. He appears to get rattled by goals easier then Halak.

I liked Halak. I would have stuck with him. Maybe I am wrong, but I will gladly admit if I am down the road. There is no shame in that, how many players have professional scouts and managers been high on that didn't pan out? Hundreds if not thousands. It happens every year.

I do like the fact we got Eller out the deal, but regardless.

I will be very satisfied if Price comes out being the better goalie and Eller becomes what we hope he can.. I put the Habs success ahead of my personal opinion in this case, even if it means I was wrong. Atleast I am man enough to come out in public and say it though.

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Old
07-18-2010, 06:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Hugh Ellerection View Post
People like ME supported the 1 year deal given to Pleks, he delivered, I was happy and I'm happy with the deal we have him under currently. Your using hindsind to support your claim, what if we would have given him 3-4yrs at 3.75-4M per and he didn't rebound? Would you feel the same? Fact is in a cap-era with a team as pressed against the cap as we are with big contracts, we are not in a position to over pay based on potential, there HAS to be immediate results.

Thanks for assuming though.

My problem is people wanting to give a multi-year deal to goalie who has yet to truly prove his worth. You can't deny it. Yes, he was absolutely *remarkable* during 2007-2008.. Up until he faced Philly in the 2nd round and got absolutely lit up. He started off the 2008-2009 season relatively strong (as did the team). I believe he tweaked his groin in the SO victory against TB around New Years and he came back supposevely pre mature for the A/S game and he was never the same again after that. Last season wasn't terrible, it was actually a better season for him then 2008-2009 by a long shot despite less wins.

Why don't we just give him a 1 or 2 year deal at the approximate value his ELC with bonuses was worth (2.2M) and let him show us he deserves more. We have a boat load of cap space coming in after this season, I'd rather have him for 1-2 years relatively cheap and have to give him 5-5.5M after he's proved his worth then give him 3.5-4M a year for 3-4 years and have him completely bust. If I was PG, I wouldn't give him that big deal in fear of this. Thats MY approach. Only in time will we tell if I'm right or wrong. Book mark this if you like, I don't give a crap.

I don't WANT to see Price fail, on the contrary, I want to see him succeed. I want the team to succeed. This isn't a "OMGZ Hugh Ellerection hatez teh Price" situation, I don't. I just want him to prove his worth. Do you get a big raise at work without proving yourself? No you don't, so why should Carey.
You are arguing something completely different. I am all for 1 year or 2 year contracts. What I am against is all this fuss about Price being a bust and having poor attitude and wtv. We have to support our players. This thread isn`t about you. Don`t take things so personally

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Old
07-18-2010, 06:25 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MikeCammalleri View Post
You are arguing something completely different. I am all for 1 year or 2 year contracts. What I am against is all this fuss about Price being a bust and having poor attitude and wtv. We have to support our players. This thread isn`t about you. Don`t take things so personally
My arguement all along has been that I don't want to see Price get overpaid, especially over a long term.

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07-18-2010, 06:30 PM
  #106
Hackett
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Originally Posted by SpezNc View Post
the bonus doesn't count for the QO..

his true base salary was around 900K
those must have been some pretty easy bonuses to reach. He didnt have a good year, yet he more than doubled his base salary with bonuses?

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Old
07-18-2010, 07:02 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
those must have been some pretty easy bonuses to reach. He didnt have a good year, yet he more than doubled his base salary with bonuses?
Nope. Didn't make bonuses. Salary $850,000.

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07-18-2010, 07:47 PM
  #108
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by Hugh Ellerection View Post
My arguement all along has been that I don't want to see Price get overpaid, especially over a long term.
My argument has been that I don't care if he gets overpaid by a million or so for this season on a longer term contract because if he doesn't deliver it's adios time for Price. Also, if we don't make the playoffs this year there will probably be close to a dozen roster changes for next season.

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07-18-2010, 07:57 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
those must have been some pretty easy bonuses to reach. He didnt have a good year, yet he more than doubled his base salary with bonuses?
The bonuses have to count on the salary cap, hence why his salary was marked at 2.2M.

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Old
07-19-2010, 09:25 AM
  #110
CGG
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
There is NO WAY we should be giving Carey Price more money than we gave previous proven first or second line players early in their careers, except to adjust for inflation. MAXIMUM $1.4M one year for Carey. If there is a second year, there is a bit of a guess to make but NOT $3.6M for Subbans sake!
Unfortunately, salaries are based on supply / demand and what other players make as well, not what one fan thinks is fair. Sorry to interject some facts into your thread, but here we go:

- The starting goalie on 18 NHL teams make $3.4 million or more
- The starting goalie on 22 NHL teams make $1.8 million or more
- Both of the above numbers will surely go up when Niemi is signed be Chicago, and Huet will be the most expensive AHL goalie in the league next year
- If Price were to be paid $1.5 million a year, he would make more money than the following starting goalies:
- Osgood / Howard in Det
- Tukka Rask in Bos (ELC) (keep in mind teammate Tim Thomas makes $5 million)
- Steve Mason in Columbus (ELC)
- Simeon Varleymov in Washington (ELC)

If you want to try to say that Price should make $1.4 million MAXIMUM, he would be the lowest paid starting goalie who is not currently on an entry level contract, and would only be paid more than 3 starting goalies - Rask, Mason in Columbus, and Varlamov (if Washington doesn't sign someone else).

You think Price's agent will be happy with that?

$1.2 to $1.4 million for Price would put him in the range of these less-than-wonderful backup goalies:

Josh Harding $1.2 million
Jonas Gustavvson $1.35 million
Scott Clemmensen $1.2 million
Johan Hedberg $1.5 million
Ty Conklin $1.3 million to backup Jaro Halak
Peter Budaj $1.25 million
Mike Smith $2.2 million or Dan Ellis $1.5 million
Mathieu Garon $1.2 million

None of the guys listed above is expected to start anywhere near 60 games. In fact Hedberg will probably get about 15 games if he's lucky. Offer Price the same salary as Halak's backup in St. Louis. I'd like to see how his agent responds to that.

Cite the case where a starting goalie with 143 games of NHL experience and a career .912 save percentage gets $900k coming off an entry level contract. It's not about bad years. Unless you're trying to say Price is the worst goalie in the NHL, there is absolutely no plausible argument that he should be making $1.4 million or less next year.

I'd say his closest comparables are Halak, Leclaire, Lehtonen and Rinne, all of whom make $3.4 million to $3.8 million next year. Be happy if he signs for $2.5 million.

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Old
07-19-2010, 09:32 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Unfortunately, salaries are based on supply / demand and what other players make as well, not what one fan thinks is fair. Sorry to interject some facts into your thread, but here we go:

- The starting goalie on 18 NHL teams make $3.4 million or more
- The starting goalie on 22 NHL teams make $1.8 million or more
- Both of the above numbers will surely go up when Niemi is signed be Chicago, and Huet will be the most expensive AHL goalie in the league next year
- If Price were to be paid $1.5 million a year, he would make more money than the following starting goalies:
- Osgood / Howard in Det
- Tukka Rask in Bos (ELC) (keep in mind teammate Tim Thomas makes $5 million)
- Steve Mason in Columbus (ELC)
- Simeon Varleymov in Washington (ELC)

If you want to try to say that Price should make $1.4 million MAXIMUM, he would be the lowest paid starting goalie who is not currently on an entry level contract, and would only be paid more than 3 starting goalies - Rask, Mason in Columbus, and Varlamov (if Washington doesn't sign someone else).

You think Price's agent will be happy with that?

$1.2 to $1.4 million for Price would put him in the range of these less-than-wonderful backup goalies:

Josh Harding $1.2 million
Jonas Gustavvson $1.35 million
Scott Clemmensen $1.2 million
Johan Hedberg $1.5 million
Ty Conklin $1.3 million to backup Jaro Halak
Peter Budaj $1.25 million
Mike Smith $2.2 million or Dan Ellis $1.5 million
Mathieu Garon $1.2 million

None of the guys listed above is expected to start anywhere near 60 games. In fact Hedberg will probably get about 15 games if he's lucky. Offer Price the same salary as Halak's backup in St. Louis. I'd like to see how his agent responds to that.

Cite the case where a starting goalie with 143 games of NHL experience and a career .912 save percentage gets $900k coming off an entry level contract. It's not about bad years. Unless you're trying to say Price is the worst goalie in the NHL, there is absolutely no plausible argument that he should be making $1.4 million or less next year.

I'd say his closest comparables are Halak, Leclaire, Lehtonen and Rinne, all of whom make $3.4 million to $3.8 million next year. Be happy if he signs for $2.5 million.

but, but..... but............................. but none of the goalies you mentioned have character problems !?!

Price's 2 minors in the playoffs = subtract 1 Million / yr for that!#




BTW, excellent post!

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