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Gagne Would Only Waive To Tampa

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07-20-2010, 10:59 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
But anyone that believes that of the teams that Gagne chose, all the others definitely wanted to make a trade for him, is just as foolish. The FA Market this year is so bizarre Turco isn't signed and Kovalchuk wasn't signed until yesterday. By now, most teams know what they want.
There was at least 1 other team that wanted to make a deal and Shooter wisely said no to that team. As someone said you dont make a bad trade just to make a deal. Had the GM not painted himself in a corner none of this would have happened. no need to trade Gagne now. He should have waited until closer to the season How knows if an injury pops up, Tampa all of a sudden is thin and gets desparate. To trade him yesterday makes zero sense. The entire management of this orginization is sad.

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07-20-2010, 11:28 AM
  #102
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There was at least 1 other team that wanted to make a deal and Shooter wisely said no to that team. As someone said you dont make a bad trade just to make a deal. Had the GM not painted himself in a corner none of this would have happened. no need to trade Gagne now. He should have waited until closer to the season How knows if an injury pops up, Tampa all of a sudden is thin and gets desparate. To trade him yesterday makes zero sense. The entire management of this orginization is sad.
Waiting like that is the same reason the lockout happened a few years back...thanks Bob Goodenow. Yes they could have waited for a better deal, but if you wait until you get too close to the season, the Flyers would have gone to desperation mode.

I truly think that this is a deal to help Tampa, kind of as a business favor. We've seen it before...Coburn-Zhitnik. No team should have taken Zhitnik.

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07-20-2010, 11:32 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Waiting like that is the same reason the lockout happened a few years back...thanks Bob Goodenow. Yes they could have waited for a better deal, but if you wait until you get too close to the season, the Flyers would have gone to desperation mode.

I truly think that this is a deal to help Tampa, kind of as a business favor. We've seen it before...Coburn-Zhitnik. No team should have taken Zhitnik.
Then you waive him at that point. That is betetr than 1.7mm cap hit and a 4th rd pick. Zhitnik was a fine dman at the time. Waddel needed to make th eplayoffs so he gave up on coburn. You can hardly compare the Gagen situation to that. They had other options with Gagne. They already were in desparation mode sadly.

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07-20-2010, 11:39 AM
  #104
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Then you waive him at that point. That is betetr than 1.7mm cap hit and a 4th rd pick. Zhitnik was a fine dman at the time. Waddel needed to make th eplayoffs so he gave up on coburn. You can hardly compare the Gagen situation to that. They had other options with Gagne. They already were in desparation mode sadly.
That was my whole point of my original message. After 10 seasons, Holmgren, for that matter Ed Snider, wasn't going to waive him.

"Thanks for all the dedication and work, and conference championships and playoff runs. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

As for other options, I think someone else mentioned of the teams he wanted, only one other than TB was interested. I'm curious if their deal was decent either.

And I really don't understand the complaining about this trade. Yes, Walker sucks a fat one. But O'Donnell and Meszaros, barring they don't trade a defenseman, will make a fine 3rd pairing. So you waive Walker, and in the end you get a 4th rounder out of it, for what essentially could have just been them waiving Gagne.

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07-20-2010, 11:41 AM
  #105
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Then you waive him at that point. That is betetr than 1.7mm cap hit and a 4th rd pick. Zhitnik was a fine dman at the time. Waddel needed to make th eplayoffs so he gave up on coburn. You can hardly compare the Gagen situation to that. They had other options with Gagne. They already were in desparation mode sadly.
I don't get this line of reasoning at all.

Everybody's pissed at the return we got (not taking into the fact that it was a purely business decision - the circumstances on which it was led to are debatable), but then instead of even those things picked up, you'd rather just waive him?

It's stupid. Waiving a player is not a "fun" thing to do - GM's don't enjoy having to do that, and players don't enjoy getting waived. I mean, what if your boss came up to you and just said, "you're not really in our plans, so see ya" - would you be tempted to ever work for a place like that again? Our would you rather have him say "listen, things are tight right now, and we don't have room for you, so we're going to look to move you somewhere else, where would you like to go?"

It's good code of conduct by a business to approach somebody and offer to trade them instead of just outright waiving them - it makes people respect the organization.

It's a two way street.

You have to respect the player's preferences at well - you can't treat your employees like garbage.

I mean, do you realize that waiving a player is an impact on a player's life? You can sit here arbitrarily and offer ignorant suggestions like "oh he sucks, just waive him" like it means nothing - which to you, it does - but neglecting the fact that here is a person having to go through that.

Neither GM's nor players enjoy that aspect of the business.

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07-20-2010, 11:42 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
But O'Donnell and Meszaros, barring they don't trade a defenseman, will make a fine 3rd pairing. So you waive Walker, and in the end you get a 4th rounder out of it, for what essentially could have just been them waiving Gagne.
10 percent of your cap space on your 3rd pairing is... not good.

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07-20-2010, 11:48 AM
  #107
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I don't get this line of reasoning at all.

Everybody's pissed at the return we got (not taking into the fact that it was a purely business decision - the circumstances on which it was led to are debatable), but then instead of even those things picked up, you'd rather just waive him?

It's stupid. Waiving a player is not a "fun" thing to do - GM's don't enjoy having to do that, and players don't enjoy getting waived. I mean, what if your boss came up to you and just said, "you're not really in our plans, so see ya" - would you be tempted to ever work for a place like that again? Our would you rather have him say "listen, things are tight right now, and we don't have room for you, so we're going to look to move you somewhere else, where would you like to go?"

It's good code of conduct by a business to approach somebody and offer to trade them instead of just outright waiving them - it makes people respect the organization.

It's a two way street.

You have to respect the player's preferences at well - you can't treat your employees like garbage.

I mean, do you realize that waiving a player is an impact on a player's life? You can sit here arbitrarily and offer ignorant suggestions like "oh he sucks, just waive him" like it means nothing - which to you, it does - but neglecting the fact that here is a person having to go through that.

Neither GM's nor players enjoy that aspect of the business.
what part dont you get? Yes i would rather waive him than make a bad deal. The 4th rd pick is nothing. Adding a a #6dman making 1.7mm cap hit is a terrible decision. Its a business. When youlet the players or your employees run your business you will fail most times. Impact on the players life? lol, i feel so bad how that impact would be making 5.2mm a year. Really tragic.

I have been let go by an employer and yes i would have no problem returning if the price was rigth and the deal was real.

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07-20-2010, 11:50 AM
  #108
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10 percent of your cap space on your 3rd pairing is... not good.
That's why I said "barring if they don't trade a defenseman" which I'm willing to bet they're more than likely to do.

I wouldn't plan for 8 defensemen, whether it be injuries or whatever. I'd go 7 and either call up or pick someone up off waivers when the time came. I'm on the boat that I think Carle may get moved. Maybe Meszaros.

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07-20-2010, 11:50 AM
  #109
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That was my whole point of my original message. After 10 seasons, Holmgren, for that matter Ed Snider, wasn't going to waive him.

"Thanks for all the dedication and work, and conference championships and playoff runs. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

As for other options, I think someone else mentioned of the teams he wanted, only one other than TB was interested. I'm curious if their deal was decent either.

And I really don't understand the complaining about this trade. Yes, Walker sucks a fat one. But O'Donnell and Meszaros, barring they don't trade a defenseman, will make a fine 3rd pairing. So you waive Walker, and in the end you get a 4th rounder out of it, for what essentially could have just been them waiving Gagne.
you dont invest over 5mm in yoru 3rd pairing. That is assinine. You dont add another bottom pairing dman making 1.77. That is also assinine. The flyers need to start worrying baout their succes or lack their off instead of how the players feel. Free agents will go where the $ is 985 of the time. If you think players will nto come here becuase they waived Gagne imo is silly.

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07-20-2010, 11:54 AM
  #110
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you dont invest over 5mm in yoru 3rd pairing. That is assinine. You dont add another bottom pairing dman making 1.77. That is also assinine. The flyers need to start worrying baout their succes or lack their off instead of how the players feel. Free agents will go where the $ is 985 of the time. If you think players will nto come here becuase they waived Gagne imo is silly.
How is that silly? Reputation goes a long way. Why do you think Gagne stuck around 10 years? Richards 13? Why do so many Devils stick by that team? Incentives and the way you're treated are a major impact on a player's decision. Nobody wants to play in a place they don't want to play for $500,000 more. Happiness > Money, even if Money is the biggest priority when it comes to deciding which team to sign with.

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07-20-2010, 12:17 PM
  #111
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Since we're all discussing the merits of group hugs and teddygrams on NHL teams at present, how do we think Gagné felt when Holmgren was spending himself into a corner and the rumours started flowing that he (Gagné) would be the solution to the bullet hole in Holmgren's foot? How do you think Gagné – who has invested 10 years into this team, came back from a broken foot to score, among others, an OT winner and series winner against Boston and who has been all class all the time as a Flyer – felt when the precious cap space got used on multiple defensemen and a 5th-line lowbrow? Or when Holmgren first picked up the phone and asked Gagné to waive his NTC?

Like Gagné was quoted (paraphrased) as saying, when it's clear the team wants to move on without you, NTC or no NTC, you had better pack your bags. Yes, being waived would have stung, but how about being worth a chump D with a bloated contract and a 4th rounder?

To underline NWO's statement, Paul Holmgren is supposed to be a businessman. Getting Gagné for just the 4th would have been better. But Holmgren signed off on negative value for a high-quality player like Gagné, and I cannot plumb the depths of the stupidity that brought this nausea-inducing situation to light.

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07-20-2010, 12:33 PM
  #112
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How is that silly? Reputation goes a long way. Why do you think Gagne stuck around 10 years? Richards 13? Why do so many Devils stick by that team? Incentives and the way you're treated are a major impact on a player's decision. Nobody wants to play in a place they don't want to play for $500,000 more. Happiness > Money, even if Money is the biggest priority when it comes to deciding which team to sign with.
It is silly becuase the flyers alrerady have a good reputation that is second to none. you thinking waiving 1 player is going to tarnish that? I dont. Give me a break with this reputation crap, players follow the $ the majority of the time. Players also want to win.

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07-20-2010, 01:05 PM
  #113
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Since we're all discussing the merits of group hugs and teddygrams on NHL teams at present, how do we think Gagné felt when Holmgren was spending himself into a corner and the rumours started flowing that he (Gagné) would be the solution to the bullet hole in Holmgren's foot? How do you think Gagné – who has invested 10 years into this team, came back from a broken foot to score, among others, an OT winner and series winner against Boston and who has been all class all the time as a Flyer – felt when the precious cap space got used on multiple defensemen and a 5th-line lowbrow? Or when Holmgren first picked up the phone and asked Gagné to waive his NTC?

Like Gagné was quoted (paraphrased) as saying, when it's clear the team wants to move on without you, NTC or no NTC, you had better pack your bags. Yes, being waived would have stung, but how about being worth a chump D with a bloated contract and a 4th rounder?

To underline NWO's statement, Paul Holmgren is supposed to be a businessman. Getting Gagné for just the 4th would have been better. But Holmgren signed off on negative value for a high-quality player like Gagné, and I cannot plumb the depths of the stupidity that brought this nausea-inducing situation to light.



What difference to Gagne how much the Flyers get back? He's going to TBay anyways. Less to the Flyers is more to his new team. What's going to be interesting is too see Gags have a decent season and possibly be dealt at the deadline for plus value.

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07-20-2010, 01:23 PM
  #114
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What difference to Gagne how much the Flyers get back? He's going to TBay anyways. Less to the Flyers is more to his new team. What's going to be interesting is too see Gags have a decent season and possibly be dealt at the deadline for plus value.
Thanks for your question. If we are discussing the effect on a player who is waived, then the bottom line is that he was worth zero return in a trade to the club. Therefore, the hit to the ego is also connected with how much you are "valued" in the return on a trade. If Gagné netted – for argument's sake only – Hedman and a 1st, then wouldn't he think that both Holmgren and Yzerman valued him a lot? To me, having been traded for a marginal defenseman and a 4th-round pick shows that Holmgren and/or Yzerman's valuation of him was that low.

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07-20-2010, 01:44 PM
  #115
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Thanks for your question. If we are discussing the effect on a player who is waived, then the bottom line is that he was worth zero return in a trade to the club. Therefore, the hit to the ego is also connected with how much you are "valued" in the return on a trade. If Gagné netted – for argument's sake only – Hedman and a 1st, then wouldn't he think that both Holmgren and Yzerman valued him a lot? To me, having been traded for a marginal defenseman and a 4th-round pick shows that Holmgren and/or Yzerman's valuation of him was that low.
That is a fan's thinking and not a businessman's thinking. In business people are aware of the value of things that they pay rock-bottom prices for all the time. It's not supposed to be "fair." You utilize your leverage and get the best benefit/cost ratio you can get. Yzerman had ALL the leverage here and he used it. You can see that thinking at work in trades all the time, just look at what the Warriors got for Wilt Chamberlain, what the Oilers got for Gretzky, etc.

We have benefited from essentially unilateral negotiations with Nashville and now Tampa benefits from an even stronger bargaining position. This deal has no real reflection on how either GM values Gagne as a player.

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07-20-2010, 01:56 PM
  #116
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It is silly becuase the flyers alrerady have a good reputation that is second to none. you thinking waiving 1 player is going to tarnish that? I dont. Give me a break with this reputation crap, players follow the $ the majority of the time. Players also want to win.
It would certainly hurt their credibility in future negotiations that involve a NTC if it's hinted that a player would just be waived if you used his NTC. All in all the trade market just isn't there for a 30 year old winger with an injury history and impending free agency, especially when you consider the leverage Tampa had as Gagne's supposed only destination as well as our cap problems.

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07-20-2010, 02:04 PM
  #117
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That is a fan's thinking and not a businessman's thinking. In business people are aware of the value of things that they pay rock-bottom prices for all the time. It's not supposed to be "fair." You utilize your leverage and get the best benefit/cost ratio you can get. Yzerman had ALL the leverage here and he used it. You can see that thinking at work in trades all the time, just look at what the Warriors got for Wilt Chamberlain, what the Oilers got for Gretzky, etc.

We have benefited from essentially unilateral negotiations with Nashville and now Tampa benefits from an even stronger bargaining position. This deal has no real reflection on how either GM values Gagne as a player.
Thank you for your comment. I'm turning bipolar arguing on both sides of this debate. I was taking the POV on Gagné feeling jilted had he been waived and that Holmgren couldn't have insulted him like that. I was trying to illustrate the marginal bump in good feelings when you are traded for dreck instead of waived for nothing. I'm with you on the business side, as per my previous posts, and ultimately am arguing that Holmgren may as well have waived Gagné for the negative value and marginal emotional boost to Gagné.

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07-20-2010, 02:14 PM
  #118
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Gagne plays with lecavailier on my top line in NHL '10. For the '10-'11 season Gagne is currently has 41 points through 20 games... Just sayin.

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07-20-2010, 02:21 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
That is a fan's thinking and not a businessman's thinking. In business people are aware of the value of things that they pay rock-bottom prices for all the time. It's not supposed to be "fair." You utilize your leverage and get the best benefit/cost ratio you can get. Yzerman had ALL the leverage here and he used it. You can see that thinking at work in trades all the time, just look at what the Warriors got for Wilt Chamberlain, what the Oilers got for Gretzky, etc.

We have benefited from essentially unilateral negotiations with Nashville and now Tampa benefits from an even stronger bargaining position. This deal has no real reflection on how either GM values Gagne as a player.
Agreed. But any sane businessman is going to pull the deal off the table if they're ending up in a worse position by making the deal.

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07-20-2010, 02:28 PM
  #120
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I wouldn't wipe my ass with Matt Walker and a 4th round pick.

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07-20-2010, 02:34 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
That was my whole point of my original message. After 10 seasons, Holmgren, for that matter Ed Snider, wasn't going to waive him.

"Thanks for all the dedication and work, and conference championships and playoff runs. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

As for other options, I think someone else mentioned of the teams he wanted, only one other than TB was interested. I'm curious if their deal was decent either.

And I really don't understand the complaining about this trade. Yes, Walker sucks a fat one. But O'Donnell and Meszaros, barring they don't trade a defenseman, will make a fine 3rd pairing. So you waive Walker, and in the end you get a 4th rounder out of it, for what essentially could have just been them waiving Gagne.
The Boruk article posted earlier said Gagne/his agent talked to 5-6 teams. The Wings were apparently interested but Gagne wanted to go to a team with a good amount of cap space so he wouldn't have to worry about being forced to leave.

http://www.csnphilly.com/07/19/10/Bo...982&feedID=704

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What were Gagne’s main deciding factors? Would you believe: cap space. Ironically, he didn’t want to be with a team in a similar situation the Flyers had put themselves for a couple of reasons. Primarily, he is not looking at this as a one-year rental. That may or may not be the situation in Tampa Bay, but he wanted to know that there would be plenty of cap room to sign a multi-year contract past this upcoming season.

Surprisingly, the Detroit Red Wings had expressed interest and wanted to add Gagne, but with less than $4 million in cap space, the idea of joining one of the most successful franchises in hockey didn’t seem too appealing. The same can be said for his hometown Montreal Canadiens.
It should be noted though that the way the above sentence about the Canadiens is phrased in a way that makes it sound like Gagne turned down the Canadiens because they had too little cap space. However, another article (I think the RDS one) said that Gagne contacted the Canadiens to see if they would like to have him on the team but they said they didn't have the cap space for it. Of course who knows exactly what was said.

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