HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must use the RUMOR prefix in thread title. Proposals must contain the PROPOSAL prefix in the thread title.

Toronto - Calgary

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-20-2010, 12:32 PM
  #51
IrMitchell*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
I love how the Flames missing one year of playoffs amounts to the worst GM in the history of any sporting team. Yes the Jokinen trade didn't work out.

Sutter occasionally makes high risk moves, but his positives far outweigh his negatives. Yes the Jokinen move didn't work out.... we get it. However, if Jokinen returns to the Flames this year and puts up anything over 60 points it becomes good value.

Now lets take a look at Toronto's recent moves....Kessel for Seguin, Knight, and another first (sure to be another lottery pick at this rate)....brilliant? bwahahaha What are the odds of that one ever becoming good value?
It's not that they missed the playoffs, if the Flames never hit the jackpot on Iginla they'd be the worst team in the league bar none.

Sutter is the worst GM in the game today, fact.

Kessel for Seguin, Knight, First that's a *sure lottery pick*, trust me man doesn't bother me one bit when we have a young scoring threat that the Flames haven't seen in years.

You could go on all day about how good your team is (which it isn't, and you'll find out next season), but at the end of the day you have Toronto's hand me downs all over your roster.

IrMitchell* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:35 PM
  #52
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CgyFlamesftw View Post
How so???
You haven't even signed White yet, who's by far the best player that went to Calgary. I won't even start talking about Stajan, but lets just say I'm not a fan.

grabo84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:36 PM
  #53
CgyFlamesftw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
It's not that they missed the playoffs, if the Flames never hit the jackpot on Iginla they'd be the worst team in the league bar none.

Sutter is the worst GM in the game today, fact.

Kessel for Seguin, Knight, First that's a *sure lottery pick*, trust me man doesn't bother me one bit when we have a young scoring threat that the Flames haven't seen in years.
You could go on all day about how good your team is (which it isn't, and you'll find out next season), but at the end of the day you have Toronto's hand me downs all over your roster.
Uh his name is Iginla? He scores more goals and points than kessel? Oh ya hes older too, damn he must of been good when he was young.

CgyFlamesftw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:38 PM
  #54
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
It's not that they missed the playoffs, if the Flames never hit the jackpot on Iginla they'd be the worst team in the league bar none.

Sutter is the worst GM in the game today, fact.

Kessel for Seguin, Knight, First that's a *sure lottery pick*, trust me man doesn't bother me one bit when we have a young scoring threat that the Flames haven't seen in years.

You could go on all day about how good your team is (which it isn't, and you'll find out next season), but at the end of the day you have Toronto's hand me downs all over your roster.
You obviously haven't watched the Flames for very long.

The Flames pre-Sutter <<<<<<<< than Flames post-Sutter.

You also need to look up the definition of a "fact". It doesn't involve opinion. Bringing a team within one game of a championship in a 30 team league hardly makes you the worst. Fact.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:40 PM
  #55
IrMitchell*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CgyFlamesftw View Post
Uh his name is Iginla? He scores more goals and points than kessel? Oh ya hes older too, damn he must of been good when he was young.
Lol, horrible logic.

Iginla's 33 years old bud, hate to burst your bubble but Kessel is 22, therefore Iginla was Kessel's age 11 years ago. Not only that, but Iginla hadn't scored 30 goals till his 5th season.

Listen, he's been a great player and idol for many many people here in Canada, but he's getting up there.

IrMitchell* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:43 PM
  #56
IrMitchell*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
You obviously haven't watched the Flames for very long.

The Flames pre-Sutter <<<<<<<< than Flames post-Sutter.

You also need to look up the definition of a "fact". It doesn't involve opinion. Bringing a team within one game of a championship in a 30 team league hardly makes you the worst. Fact.
I've been watching/playing hockey all my life and it's for that exact reason that I can point out a team on it's decline and the first team that comes to mind would be the Calgary Flames without a doubt.

IrMitchell* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:45 PM
  #57
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
I've been watching/playing hockey all my life and it's for that exact reason that I can point out a team on it's decline and the first team that comes to mind would be the Calgary Flames without a doubt.
Leafs fans are experts on hockey teams in decline. The Flames really remind me of the post-lockout Sundin era Leafs. It's eerie.

grabo84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:48 PM
  #58
Pure
Registered User
 
Pure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Leafs fans are experts on hockey teams in decline. The Flames really remind me of the post-lockout Sundin era Leafs. It's eerie.
The post-lockout Sundin era leafs would easily be better than the Leafs today (in potential) if JFJ rebuilt the team properly. The Flames are better than that Sundin team, it depends on whether Sutter rebuilds that team properly or not.

Pure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:49 PM
  #59
IrMitchell*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Leafs fans are experts on hockey teams in decline. The Flames really remind me of the post-lockout Sundin era Leafs. It's eerie.
Yes sir

IrMitchell* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:51 PM
  #60
Ice Cream Man
$1 Oysters
 
Ice Cream Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 5,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrMitchell View Post
Nope, but they're three prospects who have top 6 potential. Winning the cup takes more than one season of developing prospects, but let me ask you this.

Hagman, Stajan, White, Mayers.

Did you think they were the difference from being a borderline playoff team to Stanley Cup champs?

*I'm sorry, I just can't take Calgary serious, such an unorganized flawed system run by the worst GM in the history of any sporting team.
The ignorance in this post is staggering.

Stajan, Hagman and White are all quality players that brought needed depth to our lineup, something that was sorry lacking. I don't see how adding two top-six forwards and a top-four defenseman is a bad thing, especially given the fact that White contributed to our team as much as Phaneuf did, and at a fraction of the price.

And then, you say that Sutter is the worst GM in history. Why is that? The only really terrible trade he did was the Jokinen / Prust / Higgins / Kotalik trade, and possibly the Sauve / Reinprecht / Boucher / Leclerc trade (which wasn't even a major trade anyways).

He's also the guy that acquired one of the best goalies in the league for a pick, he acquired Rene Bourque for a pick, he acquired the rights to Bouwmeester for next to nothing, he got Huselius for nothing, he robbed Phoenix of Langkow, he signed an undrafted Mark Giordano, hhe brought in Warrener/Nilson/Simon/Donovan etc. for depth which carried us to the '04 Finals, he routinely gets guys to sign discounted contracts, and many players have come in and put up career numbers under his regime. Oh, and he drafted your beloved Phaneuf.

There's worse GM's out there than Sutter, that's for sure. All you're doing is seeing one or two bad trades (which is striclty your opinion) and basing your opinion of him solely off of that. Fail.

Ice Cream Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 12:55 PM
  #61
mrdonkey
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 703
vCash: 500
This thread was destined to be a go-nowhere pissing contest from the very beginning. I don't understand why it's been allowed to stay open this long.

mrdonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:02 PM
  #62
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Leafs fans are experts on hockey teams in decline. The Flames really remind me of the post-lockout Sundin era Leafs. It's eerie.
The Flames are set on D for a long time with Gio, White, and JBo. They have young forward depth with Backlund, Stajan, and Bourque. In two years they will have enough cap space to sign top notch first line talent assuming no one in the system develops into that.

Things aren't as bleak as you are making them out to be. No they don't have a guaranteed franchise forward prospect, but neither do most teams, including the Leafs.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:03 PM
  #63
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
The ignorance in this post is staggering.

Stajan, Hagman and White are all quality players that brought needed depth to our lineup, something that was sorry lacking. I don't see how adding two top-six forwards and a top-four defenseman is a bad thing, especially given the fact that White contributed to our team as much as Phaneuf did, and at a fraction of the price.

And then, you say that Sutter is the worst GM in history. Why is that? The only really terrible trade he did was the Jokinen / Prust / Higgins / Kotalik trade, and possibly the Sauve / Reinprecht / Boucher / Leclerc trade (which wasn't even a major trade anyways).

He's also the guy that acquired one of the best goalies in the league for a pick, he acquired Rene Bourque for a pick, he acquired the rights to Bouwmeester for next to nothing, he got Huselius for nothing, he robbed Phoenix of Langkow, he signed an undrafted Mark Giordano, hhe brought in Warrener/Nilson/Simon/Donovan etc. for depth which carried us to the '04 Finals, he routinely gets guys to sign discounted contracts, and many players have come in and put up career numbers under his regime. Oh, and he drafted your beloved Phaneuf.

There's worse GM's out there than Sutter, that's for sure. All you're doing is seeing one or two bad trades (which is striclty your opinion) and basing your opinion of him solely off of that. Fail.

And that's over.

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:05 PM
  #64
CgyFlamesftw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
The ignorance in this post is staggering.

Stajan, Hagman and White are all quality players that brought needed depth to our lineup, something that was sorry lacking. I don't see how adding two top-six forwards and a top-four defenseman is a bad thing, especially given the fact that White contributed to our team as much as Phaneuf did, and at a fraction of the price.

And then, you say that Sutter is the worst GM in history. Why is that? The only really terrible trade he did was the Jokinen / Prust / Higgins / Kotalik trade, and possibly the Sauve / Reinprecht / Boucher / Leclerc trade (which wasn't even a major trade anyways).

He's also the guy that acquired one of the best goalies in the league for a pick, he acquired Rene Bourque for a pick, he acquired the rights to Bouwmeester for next to nothing, he got Huselius for nothing, he robbed Phoenix of Langkow, he signed an undrafted Mark Giordano, hhe brought in Warrener/Nilson/Simon/Donovan etc. for depth which carried us to the '04 Finals, he routinely gets guys to sign discounted contracts, and many players have come in and put up career numbers under his regime. Oh, and he drafted your beloved Phaneuf.

There's worse GM's out there than Sutter, that's for sure. All you're doing is seeing one or two bad trades (which is striclty your opinion) and basing your opinion of him solely off of that. Fail.
Win Win.

CgyFlamesftw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:10 PM
  #65
PhilTheThrillKessel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
The ignorance in this post is staggering.

Stajan, Hagman and White are all quality players that brought needed depth to our lineup, something that was sorry lacking. I don't see how adding two top-six forwards and a top-four defenseman is a bad thing, especially given the fact that White contributed to our team as much as Phaneuf did, and at a fraction of the price.

And then, you say that Sutter is the worst GM in history. Why is that? The only really terrible trade he did was the Jokinen / Prust / Higgins / Kotalik trade, and possibly the Sauve / Reinprecht / Boucher / Leclerc trade (which wasn't even a major trade anyways).

He's also the guy that acquired one of the best goalies in the league for a pick, he acquired Rene Bourque for a pick, he acquired the rights to Bouwmeester for next to nothing, he got Huselius for nothing, he robbed Phoenix of Langkow, he signed an undrafted Mark Giordano, hhe brought in Warrener/Nilson/Simon/Donovan etc. for depth which carried us to the '04 Finals, he routinely gets guys to sign discounted contracts, and many players have come in and put up career numbers under his regime. Oh, and he drafted your beloved Phaneuf.

There's worse GM's out there than Sutter, that's for sure. All you're doing is seeing one or two bad trades (which is striclty your opinion) and basing your opinion of him solely off of that. Fail.
Aren't GM's suppose to improve their team. Don't you start questioning Sutter when your team is out of the playoffs in the first round every season for the last 4 years (something like that). And now they missed the playoffs, cmon.
Dave Tallon got fired after making the WCF's and Sutter manages to sstay GM of the Flames after not improving his team at all over the last 5 yrs and now getting them into cap hell.

Not to mention, he is ruining Backlunds development by bringing in mediocre centers (Stajan and now Jokinen) instead of allowing Calgarys only real good prospect a chance to develop.

PhilTheThrillKessel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:11 PM
  #66
Ice Cream Man
$1 Oysters
 
Ice Cream Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 5,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
And that's over.
Oh yeah, my mistake. He'll be doing it at half the price now.


Ice Cream Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:12 PM
  #67
ComixZone
Registered User
 
ComixZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,755
vCash: 500
Flames have missed the playoffs once in the last 6 seasons, have a top 5 goalie in the league, have a top 5 defense in the league, and had mind-blowingly terrible scoring problems last year.

Our defense is as strong, if not stronger (I'd say stronger) this upcoming season, our goalie is still a top 5 goalie, and for the forwards, we've subtracted Sjostrom, Dawes, Boyd, Nystrom from playing on the top two lines and added in Hagman, Stajan, Tanguay.

So yeah Leaf fans, I think we'll say No Thanks to you and your 29th overall team with no 1st rounder next season.

And for the poster saying he's ruining Backlund's development...what an utterly ridiculous thing to say. Go back in time and tell Detroit they're ruining Zetterberg and Datty by having them start on the bottom two lines. Backlund has played 1 season of north american hockey, and he's developing nicely - but even as optimistic as we are about him, there's no way he's a top 2 center right now. Having him play on the 3rd line and take some duty on the wing is important for him as he continues to adjust to the speed and size of the NHL.

Worry about your own prospects/team, the Flames are a much better team now than they were 12 months ago.

ComixZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:13 PM
  #68
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTheThrillKessel View Post
Aren't GM's suppose to improve their team. Don't you start questioning Sutter when your team is out of the playoffs in the first round every season for the last 4 years (something like that). And now they missed the playoffs, cmon.
Dave Tallon got fired after making the WCF's and Sutter manages to sstay GM of the Flames after not improving his team at all over the last 5 yrs and now getting them into cap hell.
The "cap hell" is only for two years at most. Even then it could be easily removed by trading Sarich, Regehr, or other assets.

Also, Sutter did make the team better. The defence is good, the goalie is good, and believe it or not, this is one of the best and most balanced top sixes the Flames have iced in a long long long time. Prior to Sutter, the Flames had zero hope of even making playoffs year after year.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:15 PM
  #69
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTheThrillKessel View Post

Not to mention, he is ruining Backlunds development by bringing in mediocre centers (Stajan and now Jokinen) instead of allowing Calgarys only real good prospect a chance to develop.
Backlund will get the chance to play plenty this season. He's, however, not ready to jump into the second line role yet on a full time basis.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:20 PM
  #70
Ice Cream Man
$1 Oysters
 
Ice Cream Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 5,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTheThrillKessel View Post
Aren't GM's suppose to improve their team. Don't you start questioning Sutter when your team is out of the playoffs in the first round every season for the last 4 years (something like that). And now they missed the playoffs, cmon.
Dave Tallon got fired after making the WCF's and Sutter manages to sstay GM of the Flames after not improving his team at all over the last 5 yrs and now getting them into cap hell.

Not to mention, he is ruining Backlunds development by bringing in mediocre centers (Stajan and now Jokinen) instead of allowing Calgarys only real good prospect a chance to develop.
Sutter has improved our team. Dramatically. Without him, I couldn't say the same thing. This year, we were only four points out of a playoff spot, and that's WITH the entire team doing a full-on nose dive for a good chunk of the 2nd half and the supposed lockerroom problems associated with Phaneuf that all went down.

With Sutter, you're pretty much guaranteed to make the playoffs. He's only missed out on one season as GM - this season, which I just explained. His track record for making the playoffs is very, very impressive. With teams both good - and bad - on paper.

Past that point, it's up to the players on the ice to perform and do what it takes to succeed. If they don't perform, they're moved out. Sutter has been one of the most active GM's in the last several years, so you can't pull out the Dave Nonis card when it comes to transactional movement. Sutter isn't afraid to pull the trigger on a deal. And this isn't even mentioning that he's not even the coach. Sutter has nothing to do with the on-ice performance of players during the playoffs. Nothing. Look at the player themselves first, and then the coach second.

I'm not a huge Sutter fan, as sometimes his old-school ways annoy me irritably, but give the guy some damn credit. He's earned it.

Ice Cream Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:25 PM
  #71
Trollmark*
 
Trollmark*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,990
vCash: 500
sutter is the worst
one word..

staios

Trollmark* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:25 PM
  #72
PhilTheThrillKessel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Sutter has improved our team. Dramatically. Without him, I couldn't say the same thing. This year, we were only four points out of a playoff spot, and that's WITH the entire team doing a full-on nose dive for a good chunk of the 2nd half and the supposed lockerroom problems associated with Phaneuf that all went down.

With Sutter, you're pretty much guaranteed to make the playoffs. He's only missed out on one season as GM - this season, which I just explained. His track record for making the playoffs is very, very impressive. With teams both good - and bad - on paper.

Past that point, it's up to the players on the ice to perform and do what it takes to succeed. If they don't perform, they're moved out. Sutter has been one of the most active GM's in the last several years, so you can't pull out the Dave Nonis card when it comes to transactional movement. Sutter isn't afraid to pull the trigger on a deal. And this isn't even mentioning that he's not even the coach. Sutter has nothing to do with the on-ice performance of players during the playoffs. Nothing. Look at the player themselves first, and then the coach second.

I'm not a huge Sutter fan, as sometimes his old-school ways annoy me irritably, but give the guy some damn credit. He's earned it.
Well looks like you just missed the playoffs with him. But then again, we hear the Phaneuf blame. He caused the Flames to miss the playoffs. Even when he was gone and Calgary was a few points out and could have made it, no, it was Phaneuf. Jeez

PhilTheThrillKessel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:31 PM
  #73
ComixZone
Registered User
 
ComixZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTheThrillKessel View Post
Well looks like you just missed the playoffs with him. But then again, we hear the Phaneuf blame. He caused the Flames to miss the playoffs. Even when he was gone and Calgary was a few points out and could have made it, no, it was Phaneuf. Jeez
No one is saying that. The Flames missed the playoffs due to the fact that at any given time, we couldn't ice more than 4 true top six forwards (Bourque, Jokinen, Iginla or Stajan, Bourque, Hagman, Iginla). Due to the lack of depth on the top two lines, we couldn't score goals. Sutter has addressed this, as our top 3 lines now look like:

Tanguay - Jokinen - Iginla
Hagman - Stajan - Bourque
Glencross - Langkow - Backlund

Now, compare that to our top 9 last year:

Nystrom - Jokinen - Iginla
Dawes - Langkow - Bourque
Glencross - Conroy - Moss

...if you don't see the improvement from year to year, you're flat out hockey-blind.

You also can't ignore the fact that the Flames acknowledged that their was a problem in the locker room, and the only player removed to address that issue has been Dion.

ComixZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:32 PM
  #74
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilTheThrillKessel View Post
Well looks like you just missed the playoffs with him. But then again, we hear the Phaneuf blame. He caused the Flames to miss the playoffs. Even when he was gone and Calgary was a few points out and could have made it, no, it was Phaneuf. Jeez
Barring the last few games when the Flames totally gave up, they would have made it if not for huge pushes from Detroit and Nashville.

The Flames put themselves in that position with their massive losing streak, but making the playoffs last year in the West was not exactly easy. The eight seeded team had 95 points.

Keep in mind that the Flames point total would have meant a playoff birth in the east.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2010, 01:32 PM
  #75
MattVenca
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 422
vCash: 500
Kaberle Proposal

I don't know how to create a new thread, but here is my Kaberle proposal - Reply your thoughts!

To Washington:
-Mikhail Grabovski (C)
-Tomas Kaberle (D)

To Toronto:
-Tomas Fleischmann (LW/C)
-Dave Steckel (C)

I'm not sure Washington does this...They don't need another puck-moving defenseman. But I'd love to see Toronto acquire Steckel for the 3rd or 4th line.

MattVenca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.