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Old
07-20-2010, 02:48 PM
  #1
bdemz
 
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Let's take a look at the whole picture

While I hate that Gagne is no longer a Flyer and by no means am I a Holmgren fan boy (Holmgren should have got more prospects or draft picks). Here is what was done so far :

Zherdev <> Gagne (not defensively but Zherdev will have more goals)
Mez/Odonnell/Clark > Barts/Parent/???
Shelly > Cote (as goon's go)

Sure I would have loved to have Quick/Bobby Ryan/etc, but I guess we overvalued Gagne a bit.

Is Turco still any good? If so then why leave Dallas. Also he still doesn't have a job.

I am good so far with what we have done. For a team that just went to the Cup Finals, I don't think we tore it up too much. The only significant loss was Gagne replaced by a younger goal scorer and an improved D.

What else was/is out there?

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07-20-2010, 02:51 PM
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CharlieGirl
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Is there anything missing in this picture?


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07-20-2010, 02:54 PM
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bdemz
 
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same

Same as last year, got to the Finals.

Now with a true 3rd D line maybe less 2nd and 3rd chances. Let's give Leighton a chance for at least a few months.

He did stand on his head for most of the playoffs

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07-20-2010, 02:57 PM
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CharlieGirl
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Originally Posted by bdemz View Post
Same as last year, got to the Finals.

Now with a true 3rd D line maybe less 2nd and 3rd chances. Let's give Leighton a chance for at least a few months.

He did stand on his head for most of the playoffs
Disagree. He did make a few key saves and a few key times, I'll give him that.

But he succeeded against teams with anemic offenses, and the Flyers were able to score enough goals to offset the ****** ones he let in, until they faced a better offensive team and he was exposed.

Leighton had his chance. I hate the thought of seeing the Flyers go into next season with Leighton as the starter. And if Leighton plays like Leighton, the only thing the Flyers have to fall back on is Boucher.

The rest of the team is strong, but spending half the salary cap on defense, and whatever falls out of your pocket when you pull out your keys out on goaltending makes no sense.

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07-20-2010, 03:03 PM
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Is there anything missing in this picture?

Nope, looks just fine to me.

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Old
07-20-2010, 03:03 PM
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It Turco that much better?

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07-20-2010, 03:08 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdemz View Post
It Turco that much better?
Yes, Turco it better. At his worst Turco could put up the same numbers behind this D that Leighton did. At his best he poops all over MFL. Average Turco > "hot" Leighton.

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07-20-2010, 03:10 PM
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To me this offseason isn't about whether we have improved or not (which, imo, we have taken a step back), this off season is about what COULD have been.

We COULD have signed O'Donnell, Mason and Zherdev, resigned Coburn, Carcillo and Powe, and still kept Gagne.

Coburn was given 500K more than he would have gotten on the market (1M more than he deserved in my opinion), Leighton could have replaced Boucher as backup for the same cap hit (or be allowed to walk and get epically Biron'd), Shelly was a waste of cap space and Meszaros was just beyond stupid in multiple ways.

Take Shelly, Mes and Leighton off the books and give Coburn .5M less (or take the 1st and 3rd draft picks from an offer sheet to the bank) = 7.15M saved which is MORE than enough for everything I mentioned above.

The WORST PART of it all is that we are ****ED next year when Carter, Giroux and (to a lesser extent) Leino need contracts, with Gagne staying this year he was built in cap space to give to those three, now what the **** do we do with Walker at 1.7M for 2 more years, Mes at 4M for 3 more years and Shelly at 1.1M for 2 more years.

This offseason was a giant failure for this coming year, but the birthing pangs of failure have only yet begun to be felt.

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Old
07-20-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
The WORST PART of it all is that we are ****ED next year when Carter, Giroux and (to a lesser extent) Leino need contracts, with Gagne staying this year he was built in cap space to give to those three, now what the **** do we do with Walker at 1.7M for 2 more years, Mes at 4M for 3 more years and Shelly at 1.1M for 2 more years.

This offseason was a giant failure for this coming year, but the birthing pangs of failure have only yet begun to be felt.
Not to mention Zherdev who will take off like a MIG if he has a breakout year. They won't be able to keep both Leino and Zherdev if they have strong seasons...not unless they leverage Carter somehow.

Also..what if the cap drops because of the economic situation which isn't getting better anytime soon? Holmgren again has treated this offseason in a too haphazard manner...as usual. The team seems better on paper than last year but we shall see. Still too many question marks and primarily in net....I can see it now...Flyers are the best team in shots allowed but Leighton has a save percentage either slightly above 90% or mostly likely in the 89 percentile which won't cut it against teams with winning records.

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07-20-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
To me this offseason isn't about whether we have improved or not (which, imo, we have taken a step back), this off season is about what COULD have been.

We COULD have signed O'Donnell, Mason and Zherdev, resigned Coburn, Carcillo and Powe, and still kept Gagne.

Coburn was given 500K more than he would have gotten on the market (1M more than he deserved in my opinion), Leighton could have replaced Boucher as backup for the same cap hit (or be allowed to walk and get epically Biron'd), Shelly was a waste of cap space and Meszaros was just beyond stupid in multiple ways.

Take Shelly, Mes and Leighton off the books and give Coburn .5M less (or take the 1st and 3rd draft picks from an offer sheet to the bank) = 7.15M saved which is MORE than enough for everything I mentioned above.

The WORST PART of it all is that we are ****ED next year when Carter, Giroux and (to a lesser extent) Leino need contracts, with Gagne staying this year he was built in cap space to give to those three, now what the **** do we do with Walker at 1.7M for 2 more years, Mes at 4M for 3 more years and Shelly at 1.1M for 2 more years.

This offseason was a giant failure for this coming year, but the birthing pangs of failure have only yet begun to be felt.
Amen.

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07-20-2010, 03:35 PM
  #11
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A view of the whole picture


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Old
07-20-2010, 03:41 PM
  #12
chimrichalds18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdemz View Post
Same as last year, got to the Finals.

Now with a true 3rd D line maybe less 2nd and 3rd chances. Let's give Leighton a chance for at least a few months.

He did stand on his head for most of the playoffs
People have said this before, and every time I say it's the dumbest mindset you could possibly have.

He deserves a chance. He's such a great guy. What a great story.

Is this really the rationale we want governing our hockey moves? "You know what? Michael Leighton has been a below average goalie his entire career, but he played well for 20 games in the regular season and 8 games in the playoffs, so let’s stake our entire season on his ability to play 50+ games over his head."

Read over that. Let the ridiculousness of that sink in. Then add to it that we could have Marty Turco -- a guy who has played in over 500 NHL games with a .911 and 2.31 -- for probably $2 - 2.5 million, but we're not going to do that/can't do it because our GM has the patience of a 4 year old at Christmas.

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07-20-2010, 03:55 PM
  #13
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How do you know Turco is asking for 2-2.5 mil per year?

I honestly think he wants more. For his stats, why would no one else want him for that money. I think he is asking for more and that's the problem.

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Old
07-20-2010, 03:58 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
To me this offseason isn't about whether we have improved or not (which, imo, we have taken a step back), this off season is about what COULD have been.

We COULD have signed O'Donnell, Mason and Zherdev, resigned Coburn, Carcillo and Powe, and still kept Gagne.

Coburn was given 500K more than he would have gotten on the market (1M more than he deserved in my opinion), Leighton could have replaced Boucher as backup for the same cap hit (or be allowed to walk and get epically Biron'd), Shelly was a waste of cap space and Meszaros was just beyond stupid in multiple ways.

Take Shelly, Mes and Leighton off the books and give Coburn .5M less (or take the 1st and 3rd draft picks from an offer sheet to the bank) = 7.15M saved which is MORE than enough for everything I mentioned above.

The WORST PART of it all is that we are ****ED next year when Carter, Giroux and (to a lesser extent) Leino need contracts, with Gagne staying this year he was built in cap space to give to those three, now what the **** do we do with Walker at 1.7M for 2 more years, Mes at 4M for 3 more years and Shelly at 1.1M for 2 more years.

This offseason was a giant failure for this coming year, but the birthing pangs of failure have only yet begun to be felt.
I couldn't have said it any better.

Whether we're better or worse is up for debate (I think we're worse), but it's more about what could have been rather then what is.

That and how this off-season affects the next three or so off-seasons.

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07-20-2010, 03:58 PM
  #15
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Is there anything missing in this picture?

Cool, Leighton got new pads !

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07-20-2010, 04:02 PM
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Why try to look at the big picture when, clearly, Homer doesn't...

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07-20-2010, 04:05 PM
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chimrichalds18
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Originally Posted by bdemz View Post
How do you know Turco is asking for 2-2.5 mil per year?

I honestly think he wants more. For his stats, why would no one else want him for that money. I think he is asking for more and that's the problem.
Put it this way, if he asks for any more, he's gonna be out of a job. Simple as that. It's been beaten to death here, but the number of available goalies > number of teams who needed goalies. Simple as that. Turco might want $4 million, but he's not going to get it. If he wants to play -- and I think it's clear that he does -- he's going to have to take less money, i.e. $2-3 million.

Turco's price is still kind of missing the point about Leighton being the starter and deserving a chance (yay!), but whatever.

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07-20-2010, 04:07 PM
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The problem with Leighton is that he's a Laviolette guy and Laviolette has stated on numerous occasions that he's very comfortable with Leighton. Richards has also come out in defense of Leighton as well. The only one who ripped on Leighton was Pronger, but it seems that Holmgren is going to rest his hat and laurels on the words of Mike Richards, so unfortunately, I don't think we'll see Leighton go anywhere.

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07-20-2010, 04:11 PM
  #19
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If Leighton is our opening day starter, one of two things will happen by seasons end; Backlund or Bobrovsky will be the new starter, or we will have traded(probably by overpaying) for a new starter

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07-20-2010, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
People have said this before, and every time I say it's the dumbest mindset you could possibly have.

He deserves a chance. He's such a great guy. What a great story.

Is this really the rationale we want governing our hockey moves? "You know what? Michael Leighton has been a below average goalie his entire career, but he played well for 20 games in the regular season and 8 games in the playoffs, so let’s stake our entire season on his ability to play 50+ games over his head."

Read over that. Let the ridiculousness of that sink in. Then add to it that we could have Marty Turco -- a guy who has played in over 500 NHL games with a .911 and 2.31 -- for probably $2 - 2.5 million, but we're not going to do that/can't do it because our GM has the patience of a 4 year old at Christmas.
Screw Turco. We should go get Patrick Roy. He has much better career numbers then Turco. The last time either of them were any good was the same season.

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07-20-2010, 04:14 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The problem with Leighton is that he's a Laviolette guy and Laviolette has stated on numerous occasions that he's very comfortable with Leighton. Richards has also come out in defense of Leighton as well. The only one who ripped on Leighton was Pronger, but it seems that Holmgren is going to rest his hat and laurels on the words of Mike Richards, so unfortunately, I don't think we'll see Leighton go anywhere.
I've thought about that too, and I can see what you're saying...at the same time, what else are Laviolette and Richards going to say? Pronger does and says what he wants because he's Chris Pronger, but Richards isn't the kind of guy who would speak against a teammate. I mean, when people were clamoring about him being named captain, he said the right things out of respect to Smith. Could be the same thing here.

I just cannot believe that the people who are perfectly comfortable with Leighton as a goalie (if we're to believe what they say) actually get paid to run teams.

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Old
07-20-2010, 04:25 PM
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What did Pronger say about Leighton? I remember him ripping into Coburn ironically after a good game by saying something like "you can play like garbage for weeks but you can quickly become a hero when you work." It was something along those lines but I do remember him specifically saying Coburn had played like "garbage"....

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07-20-2010, 04:46 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The problem with Leighton is that he's a Laviolette guy and Laviolette has stated on numerous occasions that he's very comfortable with Leighton. Richards has also come out in defense of Leighton as well. The only one who ripped on Leighton was Pronger, but it seems that Holmgren is going to rest his hat and laurels on the words of Mike Richards, so unfortunately, I don't think we'll see Leighton go anywhere.
What do you expect them to both say? There is no way neither one of those 2 want LEighton as the starter when they look at the rest of the roster. Not a chance in hell.

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07-20-2010, 05:05 PM
  #24
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Screw Turco. We should go get Patrick Roy. He has much better career numbers then Turco. The last time either of them were any good was the same season.
Marty Turco has pretty good statistics the last four years playing behind defenses nowhere near as good as ours. Turco is a great stickhandling goalie who is extremely athletic. Who last year in a tough season played a below average 50 game season with a 913 Save Percentage. That's pretty good for a goalie that plays over 60 games a season and has had great success in the past.

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07-20-2010, 05:10 PM
  #25
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Cool, Leighton got new pads !
Yea, they make him invisible.

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