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Old
07-21-2010, 10:27 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
trade him before he retires
Perhaps, but I'm of course hoping he's able to effectively play out his contract in a serviceable fashion.

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07-21-2010, 10:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Also, you cannot trade cash nor can you trade partial salary (which is something that savvy GMs would abuse.)

I'm not worrying about Pronger's contract since there will be a new CBA between now and when he retires. In addition, he won't be hard to LTIR. It's obvious that the league doesn't look very closely and there is absolutely no way a doctor won't be able to find some significant damage on a 40 year-old's body.

"Doc, if I keep playing will it jeopardize my longterm health?"

"With the state that your back and knees are in, yes."

Boom. LTIR.

It's absolutely not hard at all.
This not true.

It's not the team doctors that get to decide with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The player has to go to a neutal Dr. since the insurance companies are involved - they pay the salary for insured contracts of LTIR players, IIRC.

And the league requires independent assessments to verify the LTIR. That's why Rathje had to go through the motions of coming to camp for a couple years - to prove he wasn't healthy enough to play.

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07-21-2010, 10:54 AM
  #28
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Pronger would forfeit his guaranteed remaining salary if he retired. Trade him, have him play a game or two, let him "decide" he can't hack it any more, and retire.

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07-21-2010, 10:57 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
This not true.

It's not the team doctors that get to decide with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The player has to go to a neutal Dr. since the insurance companies are involved - they pay the salary for insured contracts of LTIR players, IIRC.

And the league requires independent assessments to verify the LTIR. That's why Rathje had to go through the motions of coming to camp for a couple years - to prove he wasn't healthy enough to play.
The team doesn't have to file an insurance claim. If they were circumventing the Cap they would not give a damn about dishing out his 500K salary.

Obviously, they didn't want to pay Rathje 10M.

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07-21-2010, 10:59 AM
  #30
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The Flyers do NOT have all of their players contracts insured.

Pronger's though, would certainly be insured.

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07-21-2010, 11:01 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
The Flyers do NOT have all of their players contracts insured.

Pronger's though, would certainly be insured.
Prolly, but not necessarily all of it. They may have insured the beginning of it when he's getting paid more, and let the rest of it go.

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07-21-2010, 11:53 AM
  #32
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ah, did not know that. nevermind.

edit: perhaps change "$$$$" to "cheese steaks" in my last post? i think that can work for everybody!

2nd edit: come to think of it, his actual salary is so low, that you could probably just remove the cash in my original proposal and change the 6th to a 4th or something.
Lou Lamoriello just read this post, called Kovy, and told him, "I think I've got a deal Bettman can't shoot down. Do you like ... cheese steaks? ... Hello?! Are you still there, Kovy?"

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07-21-2010, 12:00 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Murphy7 View Post
Lou Lamoriello just read this post, called Kovy, and told him, "I think I've got a deal Bettman can't shoot down. Do you like ... cheese steaks? ... Hello?! Are you still there, Kovy?"
To get those cheese steaks he gotta trade with Flyers first.


Meszaros + life-time supply o' cheese steaks

for

??



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07-21-2010, 12:20 PM
  #34
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Considering where the cap could be in 5 or 6 years, I'm not to concerned with his cap hit. At the very least he will be the ultimate mentor for the younger players and still be an effective bottom pairing defenseman. I could also see him getting traded to a small market team who has the cap space, simply for the PR factor. "Team X trades for Hall of Fame Defensman, 3 time Stanley Cup Champion Chris Pronger"

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07-21-2010, 12:33 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ArmchairGM View Post
Considering where the cap could be in 5 or 6 years, I'm not to concerned with his cap hit. At the very least he will be the ultimate mentor for the younger players and still be an effective bottom pairing defenseman. I could also see him getting traded to a small market team who has the cap space, simply for the PR factor. "Team X trades for Hall of Fame Defensman, 3 time Stanley Cup Champion Chris Pronger"
Yeah, over the next couple of years Pronger will likely outperform his cap hit... and then begin to drop down towards it. We'll get good value out of that deal.

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07-21-2010, 12:37 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
To get those cheese steaks he gotta trade with Flyers first.


Meszaros + life-time supply o' cheese steaks

for

??




"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."

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07-21-2010, 12:38 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
With the way the current CBA does not directly and explicitly address "cap circumvention," it's plausible that the NHL would prohibit trading a 35+ contract player who has retired to a team trying to reach the cap floor.
Not that I don't disagree with what you're saying but what's to stop a team say Florida in trading for Pronger in the last 2 years of his contract so they can use the cap hit to reach the cap floor. Pronger goes to training camp, plays the first couple of weeks of the season and then decides to hang the skates up. There would be no way for the NHL to prove that Florida traded for Pronger just to reach the cap floor.

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07-21-2010, 12:40 PM
  #38
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Hmm, what if a player retires, but then decides he wants to come back a year later?

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07-21-2010, 12:44 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by L-train View Post
Hmm, what if a player retires, but then decides he wants to come back a year later?
I would assume the original contracting team would still retain his rights... but haven't read about that scenario.

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07-21-2010, 12:45 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I would assume the original contracting team would still retain his rights... but haven't read about that scenario.
Yeah, that's what I'd imagine... I'm guessing contracts aren't completely voided upon retirement as they are in other leagues.

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07-21-2010, 12:52 PM
  #41
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He pretty much committed that he will play out the contract, so our only worry is injury, then he can get LTIR'd anyway

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07-21-2010, 12:52 PM
  #42
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I think the Blackhawks mostly signed Bulin and Havlat to hit the cap floor and the Kings were nearly in a position where they had to make an acquisition to hit it a couple times.

That seems to be moving into the past though, I cannot really see a team acquiring a contract like Pronger's to hit the floor and especially if it has more than two years remaining. It could become value in the final year for that reason or even in the final two years but more likely it would be valuable as an expiring deal, similar to what we see in the NBA but even more so because it's front-loaded.

A team could move $5M in cap hit for Pronger taking years off the books in the future AND saving money in the short term by paying out way less than $5M in actual salary with the heavy payout in the front end of the deal.

This is an overlooked aspect of these frontloaded, long deals, the contracts gain value in the waning years as long-term cap relief and short-term savings to a team with a questionable contract or other cap issues.

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07-21-2010, 01:20 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
I think the Blackhawks mostly signed Bulin and Havlat to hit the cap floor and the Kings were nearly in a position where they had to make an acquisition to hit it a couple times.

That seems to be moving into the past though, I cannot really see a team acquiring a contract like Pronger's to hit the floor and especially if it has more than two years remaining. It could become value in the final year for that reason or even in the final two years but more likely it would be valuable as an expiring deal, similar to what we see in the NBA but even more so because it's front-loaded.

A team could move $5M in cap hit for Pronger taking years off the books in the future AND saving money in the short term by paying out way less than $5M in actual salary with the heavy payout in the front end of the deal.

This is an overlooked aspect of these frontloaded, long deals, the contracts gain value in the waning years as long-term cap relief and short-term savings to a team with a questionable contract or other cap issues.
I'm pretty sure the Islanders, Coyote-Jets, and Panthers would bust a nut to get $4.9 cap dollars added to their payroll for the cost of $550k a year. Plus they get tons of PR.

In REAL WORLD DOLLARS, these teams have MAJOR financial trouble affording the cap floor.

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07-21-2010, 01:26 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
This not true.

It's not the team doctors that get to decide with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The player has to go to a neutal Dr. since the insurance companies are involved - they pay the salary for insured contracts of LTIR players, IIRC.

And the league requires independent assessments to verify the LTIR. That's why Rathje had to go through the motions of coming to camp for a couple years - to prove he wasn't healthy enough to play.
Agreed, the description above is absolute wishful thinking. I have not covered an NHL LTIR situation closely but I know in the NBA the voiding of deals against the cap because of forced retirement is a VERY strict standard. They approved such a case with Darius Miles but it was a hornet's nest. I cannot imagine the NHL and its doctors are quick to take a team off the hook although you never know what palms get greased in this world.

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07-21-2010, 01:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I'm pretty sure the Islanders, Coyote-Jets, and Panthers would bust a nut to get $4.9 cap dollars added to their payroll for the cost of $550k a year. Plus they get tons of PR.

In REAL WORLD DOLLARS, these teams have MAJOR financial trouble affording the cap floor.
Absolutely, like I said in the final years it may have value for that reason but it has to be SUBSTANTIAL savings for a team IMO.

I'm not sweating the Pronger deal. The guy is a specimen, sure, we have seen other freaks of nature like Rickey Henderson, Moses Malone, Chelios, Brind'Amour et al get old but not until their early 40s and by then he'll either by not under contract or very manageable to trade. Same thing with Timonen, so far he has earned his money and in the final year of his deal he may have some value to a team looking to dump a so-so contract or go all in with a rental.

The Briere contract is the one that worries me, that is still the kings of kings on dumb Flyers deals. I can't see any way that doesn't hurt the Flyers badly with the cap, cost them a lot of money or, most likely, both.

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07-21-2010, 01:29 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I'm pretty sure the Islanders, Coyote-Jets, and Panthers would bust a nut to get $4.9 cap dollars added to their payroll for the cost of $550k a year. Plus they get tons of PR.

In REAL WORLD DOLLARS, these teams have MAJOR financial trouble affording the cap floor.
And if the guy retires, they don't even have to pay the $550K.....

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07-21-2010, 01:31 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The team doesn't have to file an insurance claim. If they were circumventing the Cap they would not give a damn about dishing out his 500K salary.

Obviously, they didn't want to pay Rathje 10M.
True, but the League still required an independent medical assessment to verify Rathje's LTIR status before the insurers could even get involved.

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07-21-2010, 01:40 PM
  #48
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And if the guy retires, they don't even have to pay the $550K.....
Yup.

Islanders would bust a nut to get a hold of something like that. It would save them serious coin.

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07-21-2010, 02:08 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
True, but the League still required an independent medical assessment to verify Rathje's LTIR status before the insurers could even get involved.
I understand your point. I just think that any player who is in his late 30s is going to have some serious medical issues whether playing or not.

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07-21-2010, 02:13 PM
  #50
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Absolutely, like I said in the final years it may have value for that reason but it has to be SUBSTANTIAL savings for a team IMO.

I'm not sweating the Pronger deal. The guy is a specimen, sure, we have seen other freaks of nature like Rickey Henderson, Moses Malone, Chelios, Brind'Amour et al get old but not until their early 40s and by then he'll either by not under contract or very manageable to trade. Same thing with Timonen, so far he has earned his money and in the final year of his deal he may have some value to a team looking to dump a so-so contract or go all in with a rental.

The Briere contract is the one that worries me, that is still the kings of kings on dumb Flyers deals. I can't see any way that doesn't hurt the Flyers badly with the cap, cost them a lot of money or, most likely, both.
As soon as he inked that deal, I remember thinking ďGeez, thereís no way that doesnít bite us in the ass.Ē I figured that we were going to get one of Briere, Drury, or Gomez. I didnít really want any of them, but Briere was the best of that bunch, and I guess it helps that he turned out being the cheapest. He does earn his money in the postseason, but still. Holmgren needs to be shopping that contract (heís not, Iím sure) every day here on out. Richards+Carter+Briere > $18 million next year. Thatís bad, bad news.

The number of quality players weíve already lost because we donít have a little extra room (not helped by that $6.5 million chunk) is also depressing.

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