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Reality for 2010-11: Post-Gagne

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Old
07-20-2010, 01:37 PM
  #101
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Who the F knows at this point. I'm pretty pissed about the Bartulis situation... I think he can develop into a solid bottom pairing guy at the very least, but you need to let him play to have that happen.

I don't understand why we've over committed so much on D in the summer... as opposed to staying flexible going into the season and allowing for a trade to solidify the D during the year.
At this point I'm just convinced that Homer has no ****ing idea what he's doing as a GM. The only redeeming quality I see in him is his eye for talent.

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07-20-2010, 01:39 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
whats he gonna do with Bartulis? cant send him to the AHL. he will have to clear waivers.
People will say Bartulis sucks, which i dont buy at all. He is still young and developing. Something this organization has no patience for under Holmgren.
I'm not entirely sure if Bartulis needs to clear waivers. It's pretty close, not sure about the minute details.

He signed his ELC and debuted with the Phantoms in 2007-2008 at age 20. As seen here.http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect/oskars_bartulis

He would become eligible for waivers after 3 years or 160 games as seen here.
http://nhlscap.com/waivers.htm

He's only played 53 regular season games plus however many playoff games; so he clearly hasn't surpassed 160 games. The issue is the 3 years. We are just about at the 3rd year. He's played for the Phantoms in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, and part of 2009-2010 (before getting called up). However his debut was October 5th of the 2007-2008 season. Does that mean we aren't at the 3 years yet?

Basically, what I'm getting at, is there is a chance that Bartulis is not waiver eligible, and we could therefore send him down without the risk of losing him. We are right around the 3 year mark and I'm not sure of the minute details.

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07-20-2010, 01:45 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
So basically you expect JVR to be more productive than any of our players were this year.
yes i am.

you're also not factoring in the fact that most of our forwards were extremely inconsistent and subpar this past season and didn't decide that they wanted to take anything seriously until the playoffs. i think we will see a good increase in individual productivity this season.

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07-20-2010, 01:57 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm not entirely sure if Bartulis needs to clear waivers. It's pretty close, not sure about the minute details.

He signed his ELC and debuted with the Phantoms in 2007-2008 at age 20. As seen here.http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect/oskars_bartulis

He would become eligible for waivers after 3 years or 160 games as seen here.
http://nhlscap.com/waivers.htm

He's only played 53 regular season games plus however many playoff games; so he clearly hasn't surpassed 160 games. The issue is the 3 years. We are just about at the 3rd year. He's played for the Phantoms in 2007-2008, 2008-2009, and part of 2009-2010 (before getting called up). However his debut was October 5th of the 2007-2008 season. Does that mean we aren't at the 3 years yet?

Basically, what I'm getting at, is there is a chance that Bartulis is not waiver eligible, and we could therefore send him down without the risk of losing him. We are right around the 3 year mark and I'm not sure of the minute details.

I am not entirely sure on this either, someone mentioned earlier(in one of these threads made recently) that he did have to clear.
I know the cases may be differant but LA had Ted Purcell before dealing him to TB and he could not be sent down to Manchester. I forgot the date that he passed the waiver line, but we were talking about it at the booster club table during this past season.
he was well under 100 games at the NHL level at the time.
He played 10 games with the Kings during the 2007-08 season. Not sure of the dates of those games.
Purcell will be 25 in September.

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07-20-2010, 02:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Step 1: Fire Holmgren. He clearly cannot be trusted with simple problem solving... this is alarming, because he has difficult problems to solve in the next 12 months.

Step 2: Ask the NHL if we can hit the restart button on the season. Similar to what you do when the computer decides to blow the knee out on your QB in the first game of a Madden franchise.
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Fire the assmuncher.
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but these two posts are so full of win I smiled when I read them.

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07-20-2010, 02:28 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I am not entirely sure on this either, someone mentioned earlier(in one of these threads made recently) that he did have to clear.
I know the cases may be differant but LA had Ted Purcell before dealing him to TB and he could not be sent down to Manchester. I forgot the date that he passed the waiver line, but we were talking about it at the booster club table during this past season.
he was well under 100 games at the NHL level at the time.
He played 10 games with the Kings during the 2007-08 season. Not sure of the dates of those games.
Purcell will be 25 in September.
Yea, it's always tough. 90% of people make the mistake of thinking 1 way deal = must clear waivers, which is not the case.

It all comes down to the age he signed the ELC and how long it has been OR how many games he's played. In Bartulis' case the years is the issue. If it has indeed been 3 years, he would need to clear waivers. But is it 3 years from his AHL debut? That would be October 5th. Or 3 years from the date he signed the deal? Which I don't know when that was.

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07-20-2010, 04:33 PM
  #107
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I think Homer is medically ill. He's now the definition of a hoarder.

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Old
07-22-2010, 11:17 AM
  #108
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It is starting to look good:

Player Position Cap Hit Line/Pair
Daniel Briere C 6.5 2
Mike Richards C 5.725 1
Jeff Carter C 5 1
Blair Betts C 0.7 4
Kimmo Timonen D 6.333 2
Chris Pronger D 4.9 1
Matt Carle D 3.4 1
Braydon Coburn D 3.3 2
Sean Odonnell D 1 3
Andres Meszaros D 4 3
Matt Walker D 1.7 4
Micheal Leighton G 1.5 1a
Marty Turco G 2 1b
Scott Hartnell LW 4.2 2
JVR LW 1.6 1
Ian Lapierriere LW 1.1 4
Jody Shelley LW 1.1 5
Nik Zherdov RW 2 1
Claude Giroux RW 0.8 3
Ville Leino RW 0.8 2
Dan Carcillo RW 1 4
Darrol Powe 0.725
Total Cap Hit 59.383

Lines:
Carter-Richards-Zherdev (Sick, top 5 #1 line in the NHL)
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Carcillo (Carcillo steps in for Asham)
Laps-Betts-Powe
Shelley

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Walker
Odonnell

Turco/Leighton

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07-22-2010, 01:06 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
It is starting to look good:

Player Position Cap Hit Line/Pair
Daniel Briere C 6.5 2
Mike Richards C 5.725 1
Jeff Carter C 5 1
Blair Betts C 0.7 4
Kimmo Timonen D 6.333 2
Chris Pronger D 4.9 1
Matt Carle D 3.4 1
Braydon Coburn D 3.3 2
Sean Odonnell D 1 3
Andres Meszaros D 4 3
Matt Walker D 1.7 4
Micheal Leighton G 1.5 1a
Marty Turco G 2 1b
Scott Hartnell LW 4.2 2
JVR LW 1.6 1
Ian Lapierriere LW 1.1 4
Jody Shelley LW 1.1 5
Nik Zherdov RW 2 1
Claude Giroux RW 0.8 3
Ville Leino RW 0.8 2
Dan Carcillo RW 1 4
Darrol Powe 0.725
Total Cap Hit 59.383

Lines:
Carter-Richards-Zherdev (Sick, top 5 #1 line in the NHL)
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Carcillo (Carcillo steps in for Asham)
Laps-Betts-Powe
Shelley

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Walker
Odonnell

Turco/Leighton
FYI. Marty Turco is still a UFA.
We have zero cap space to sign him.

Matt Walker sucks and so does O'Donnell. Both our goalies suck.

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07-22-2010, 01:10 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Yea, it's always tough. 90% of people make the mistake of thinking 1 way deal = must clear waivers, which is not the case.

It all comes down to the age he signed the ELC and how long it has been OR how many games he's played. In Bartulis' case the years is the issue. If it has indeed been 3 years, he would need to clear waivers. But is it 3 years from his AHL debut? That would be October 5th. Or 3 years from the date he signed the deal? Which I don't know when that was.
the wording in the CBA doesnt help either. I still dont know what the deal is. One thing tho is how will it effect Bartulis mentalty if he is sent down. yeah he is a professional. But hes still a young kid who has played pretty decent i think at the NHL level and its looking like hes being shoved aside along with the rest of our young defenseman by bringing in fossils like O'Donnell and crap like Walker.

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07-22-2010, 01:11 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
FYI. Marty Turco is still a UFA.
We have zero cap space to sign him.

Matt Walker sucks and so does O'Donnell. Both our goalies suck.
Turco would be easily signed if we want him. Waive Cote, waive Boucher (after all, no need for a 3rd goalie if we're signing Turco), and figure out which of our 8 D-men go. That's 550k, 900k, and a minimum of 600k for a total of 2.05 million in addition to the few hundred K we already have.

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07-22-2010, 01:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
At this point I'm just convinced that Homer has no ****ing idea what he's doing as a GM. The only redeeming quality I see in him is his eye for talent.
but we have no draft picks, so thats pretty useless

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07-22-2010, 01:21 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
FYI. Marty Turco is still a UFA.
We have zero cap space to sign him.

Matt Walker sucks and so does O'Donnell. Both our goalies suck.
I have listed all players with their cap hit and as you can plainly see, Turco fits in quite nicely. If we want him and he is willing to sign for 2M this year to prove himself, it is not a problem. I still think it gets done. If it does, We look AWESOME. And O'donnell is a upgrade on Krapcheck and Meszaros is an upgrade on Bartulis/Parent. Turco/Leighton is a signficant upgrade on Leighton/Boucher. Zherdev 82 games is an offensive upgrade on Gagne's 20 games of good health. Shelley is a downgrade on Asham.

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07-22-2010, 01:24 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
but we have no draft picks, so thats pretty useless
We have a 1st next year + two thirds. No second, but if someone gets offer sheeted and we lose them, useless the skill is not.

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07-22-2010, 01:28 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I have listed all players with their cap hit and as you can plainly see, Turco fits in quite nicely. If we want him and he is willing to sign for 2M this year to prove himself, it is not a problem. I still think it gets done. If it does, We look AWESOME. And O'donnell is a upgrade on Krapcheck and Meszaros is an upgrade on Bartulis/Parent. Turco/Leighton is a signficant upgrade on Leighton/Boucher. Zherdev 82 games is an offensive upgrade on Gagne's 20 games of good health. Shelley is a downgrade on Asham.
1) Turco isn't signed, so you can't talk about him like he is. It's quite possible he's waiting to see what happens with Niemi and Chicago.

2) Meszaros better be an upgrade on Bartulis and Parent, he costs roughly 3M more than both of 'em. (Note: a completely unnecessary expense to your defense in July when you have other holes.)

3) Turco/Leighton is an upgrade, but it isn't exactly a world beater combination either.

4) You don't know what Gagne's health will be next year... and if he's healthy, he's by far and away a better player than Zherdev. Not only that, if we weren't egregiously overpaying on defense and signing useless players like Shelley, it's conceivable that we could have had both Gagne and Zherdev.

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07-22-2010, 01:33 PM
  #116
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How does waiving someone work in the offseason? Won't we get screwed if we try and waive say, Walker, and someone takes him, aka we are still on the hook for half his salary?

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07-22-2010, 01:35 PM
  #117
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How does waiving someone work in the offseason? Won't we get screwed if we try and waive say, Walker, and someone takes him, aka we are still on the hook for half his salary?
No.

You only get the half-salary thing when you put a guy on recall waivers.

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07-22-2010, 01:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I have listed all players with their cap hit and as you can plainly see, Turco fits in quite nicely. If we want him and he is willing to sign for 2M this year to prove himself, it is not a problem. I still think it gets done. If it does, We look AWESOME. And O'donnell is a upgrade on Krapcheck and Meszaros is an upgrade on Bartulis/Parent. Turco/Leighton is a signficant upgrade on Leighton/Boucher. Zherdev 82 games is an offensive upgrade on Gagne's 20 games of good health. Shelley is a downgrade on Asham.
O'Donnell and Walker are terrible skaters and I am terrified of having them on the ice together. O'Donnell is barely a upgrade over Krajicek and thats not because of O'Donnell its because just how awfull Krajicek was here. He showed why he was on waivers.
Meszaros may be a upgrade over Parent and Bartulis but its a unnecessary move. I realize we needed to improve the 3rd pairing. But not at the expense of having to trade Gagne and not sign a better goaltender which we havent yet. Granted the Shelley, O'Donnell and Leighton resigning also factored in but still there was no need to make the Meszaros deal when he did.
Now if we want to sign Turco we are going to have to make another salary dump trade. you just cant assume we can fit in Turco and if we sign him we need more then 2 cents of wiggle room this season

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07-22-2010, 01:40 PM
  #119
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1) Turco isn't signed, so you can't talk about him like he is. It's quite possible he's waiting to see what happens with Niemi and Chicago.

2) Meszaros better be an upgrade on Bartulis and Parent, he costs roughly 3M more than both of 'em. (Note: a completely unnecessary expense to your defense in July when you have other holes.)

3) Turco/Leighton is an upgrade, but it isn't exactly a world beater combination either.

4) You don't know what Gagne's health will be next year... and if he's healthy, he's by far and away a better player than Zherdev. Not only that, if we weren't egregiously overpaying on defense and signing useless players like Shelley, it's conceivable that we could have had both Gagne and Zherdev.
1. fair enough, but i think it's a matter of days before he is signed

2. Mes is going to look like an all star next year. You heard it here first.

3. Lol, who else would you rather have on the free market. Turco is hopefully should get quite bored during the season with our defense the way it is.

4. The problem is exactly that though. When was the last time gagne strung together a completly healthy season for the flyers. As much as i love the guy, he always had a little or large nigle somewhere. Far from the injury prone like the people on the main boards think, but it's not like he's put up 4 or 5 80 game season yet either and he's 30

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07-22-2010, 01:41 PM
  #120
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2. Mes is going to look like an all star next year. You heard it here first.
For what he costs, and the fact that his salary was a big factor in losing Gagne, he ****ing well better look like an all star.

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07-22-2010, 01:43 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
O'Donnell and Walker are terrible skaters and I am terrified of having them on the ice together. O'Donnell is barely a upgrade over Krajicek and thats not because of O'Donnell its because just how awfull Krajicek was here. He showed why he was on waivers.
Meszaros may be a upgrade over Parent and Bartulis but its a unnecessary move. I realize we needed to improve the 3rd pairing. But not at the expense of having to trade Gagne and not sign a better goaltender which we havent yet. Granted the Shelley, O'Donnell and Leighton resigning also factored in but still there was no need to make the Meszaros deal when he did.
Now if we want to sign Turco we are going to have to make another salary dump trade. you just cant assume we can fit in Turco and if we sign him we need more then 2 cents of wiggle room this season
Something has to give on the D... so we will have the space to sign Turco if we really want to.

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07-22-2010, 01:45 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Turco would be easily signed if we want him. Waive Cote, waive Boucher (after all, no need for a 3rd goalie if we're signing Turco), and figure out which of our 8 D-men go. That's 550k, 900k, and a minimum of 600k for a total of 2.05 million in addition to the few hundred K we already have.
I dont know about easily. Holmgren hasnt shown that hes willing to put guys on waivers that he likes(Cote and Boucher). So we just cant assume it will happen. If he waives Cote and Boucher(who knows what the Bartulis situation is yet) and signs Turco i will be shocked. Even at the expense of making the team better I cant see him putting guys on waivers he consiters loyal. If I am wrong, I will admit it. But I am not seeing it.

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07-22-2010, 01:46 PM
  #123
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For what he costs, and the fact that his salary was a big factor in losing Gagne, he ****ing well better look like an all star.
He will. I followed him when he was in ottawa, the guy has some very underrated offensive skills, even then. He just needs a solid defenseman with him that will cover him like pronger does for carle.

I say 40 points, 10 goals next season

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07-22-2010, 01:49 PM
  #124
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1. fair enough, but i think it's a matter of days before he is signed

2. Mes is going to look like an all star next year. You heard it here first.

3. Lol, who else would you rather have on the free market. Turco is hopefully should get quite bored during the season with our defense the way it is.

4. The problem is exactly that though. When was the last time gagne strung together a completly healthy season for the flyers. As much as i love the guy, he always had a little or large nigle somewhere. Far from the injury prone like the people on the main boards think, but it's not like he's put up 4 or 5 80 game season yet either and he's 30
1) I don't think we're going to sign Turco. If they really wanted him, they should have displayed an iota of patience in playing the goalie market. They didn't.

2) I doubt it. I think he'll be a more expensive version of Matt Carle.

3) The goalie situation sucks. Turco is an upgrade, but lets not act like we're bringing in a Vezina candidate either... I'd be happy to have him on a modest deal, but it's a stopgap, not a long-term solution.

4) Ah, year before last Gagne put up 34-40-74 +21. God we have short memories around here. Gagne is a goal scorer, not a playmaker and because of that his point totals are more modest. He has 2 30 goal seasons, and 2 40 goal seasons. Yes, he's injury prone, and that's why he wasn't worth another big, long contract... but for one year? Was worth the risk.

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07-22-2010, 01:50 PM
  #125
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Something has to give on the D... so we will have the space to sign Turco if we really want to.
seems like Turco if he really wants to be here should sign a 1 year deal and prove himself. Not sure he has much leverage asking for a 3 year deal unless he feels Chicago gets involved if they walk away from the Niemi arbitration award.

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