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Is Gary Bettman doing a good Job as the NHL Commissioner??

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Old
07-22-2010, 03:30 PM
  #51
shutehinside
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Ok I understand about the Canadian dollar and it's crippling of the Jets and Nords franchises but,

For the second point of what you are saying the facts don't support your argument/theory.

The Florida Panthers made the Finals, T-Bay won the Cup, Anaheim won the Cup and all of these teams are in the bottom 10 in terms of attendance last year. Also last year Pheonix had an incredibly exciting young, winning team and they were dead last in the NHL in attendance.

So, very nice theory but it's just not the case that winning brings people to games in those markets.

They are not hockey markets and until Bettman is out we will continue to have a diluted, boring product supported by people in healthy markets. Like I said before if you guys enjoy watching hockey games when they are too embarassed to show the stands on tv then there is no point in arguing over this.

All I am asking for is full arenas. Why should WE support teams for other cities that don't care for hockey? It's absolute nonsense in my view.
Florida, TBay and Anaheim all had a huge fan base, and sold out all their games when they were winning. Florida, TBay Anaheim have sunk to the bottom of the rankings and as such their fans base has also dropped. I said they had fans, not loyal ones

Take any US market team that's struggling who had past success and you'll see that they didn't have those problems when they were winning. The only team I can think of with that proplem is NJ and it's probably because they're fans are used to soo much success.

The point I was trying to make is that US teams can have financial problems but those problems can easily be solved with a good management team and a winning product. That will make the fans and sponsors come, not to mention the sweetheart arena deals they get and Canadian teams don't. Know matter how successful the Nordiques and Jets were, they didn't have the ability to turn a profit and compete,IRREGARDLESS of the circumstances. That's why they left.

Now is a different story and I'd love to see them come back in lieu of some US markets. But I was strictly talking about in the past. I really can't make it any clearer then that. I'm sorry if you don't get what I'm trying to say, maybe I need better communication skills

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Old
07-22-2010, 03:47 PM
  #52
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He imposed the salary cap but that hasn't been very useful so far as the players are laughing all the way to the bank. Again where are the revenues for the owners? Shouldn't they be asking these questions? Bettman cost them money with the Phoenix deal. Everything he does is failiure.

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07-22-2010, 03:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Florida, TBay and Anaheim all had a huge fan base, and sold out all their games when they were winning. Florida, TBay Anaheim have sunk to the bottom of the rankings and as such their fans base has also dropped. I said they had fans, not loyal ones

Take any US market team that's struggling who had past success and you'll see that they didn't have those problems when they were winning. The only team I can think of with that proplem is NJ and it's probably because they're fans are used to soo much success.

The point I was trying to make is that US teams can have financial problems but those problems can easily be solved with a good management team and a winning product. That will make the fans and sponsors come, not to mention the sweetheart arena deals they get and Canadian teams don't. Know matter how successful the Nordiques and Jets were, they didn't have the ability to turn a profit and compete,IRREGARDLESS of the circumstances. That's why they left.

Now is a different story and I'd love to see them come back in lieu of some US markets. But I was strictly talking about in the past. I really can't make it any clearer then that. I'm sorry if you don't get what I'm trying to say, maybe I need better communication skills
No no, I get it you're quite clear at what your saying. It's just that I don't agree with the premise that a winning team will bring fans. It certainly didn't in Phoenix except for the playoffs. We'll see next year I guess.

What my point is in the present, I see empty arenas in Franchises who have won either the cup or very close. So I don't agree that winning brings fans to non-hockey markets.

What I am suggesting is folding two of those Franchises and bringing them back to Winnipeg and Quebec. With the Canadian dollar now at par the Economic circumstances for their success are there. Yet Gary is stuck in 1995 and refuses to budge or admit being wrong.

If you think those teams I named in my previous post you quoted are NHL successes then we don't see success in the same way.

Empty arenas does not equal success imo. Especially when they are kept afloat at the detriment of flourishing markets like Canadian markets and then you see teams like the Leafs and Oilers and Calgary struggling and being bottom-feeders. It's just not right.

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Old
07-22-2010, 05:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
He imposed the salary cap but that hasn't been very useful so far as the players are laughing all the way to the bank. Again where are the revenues for the owners? Shouldn't they be asking these questions? Bettman cost them money with the Phoenix deal. Everything he does is failiure.
Just about everything in this post is wrong.

A few players (Ovechkin, Hossa, ...) are making lots of money but it's not clear whether or not their salaries would have been higher without the cap. Many more players are making less. HOw do you think Dominque Moore feels? Is he laughing all the way to the bank?

The owners are overjoyed with the cap. Every franchise increased in value with the advent of the cap. How do you think George Gillette felt selling the Habs for $650 million? Is he unhappy with Bettman?

The owners saved lots of money when Bettman defeated Balsille. Just wait until they sell someone an expansion franchise for Hamilton or Toronto. They will get much much more than Balsille was offering. Plus they can still sell the Coyotes.

In fact the amazing thin about Bettman is that everything he does he succeeds at. The majority of people said that Balsille would use his vast resouces and his business smarts to crush Bettman. But instead Bettman won a complete victory. The same thinkg happened when he took on the NHLPA over the salary cap. Name one confrontation he has lost.

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07-22-2010, 05:38 PM
  #55
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I think he sucks as the head of teh NHL can't land us a tv deal to save his life costing the owners millions upon millions a season now by not allowing Balls to purchase and move two different teams to a market that would work. I think Bobby Orr would be a great head of the NHL. As for Buttman get him the hell out of our game.

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07-22-2010, 05:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
No no, I get it you're quite clear at what your saying. It's just that I don't agree with the premise that a winning team will bring fans. It certainly didn't in Phoenix except for the playoffs. We'll see next year I guess.

What my point is in the present, I see empty arenas in Franchises who have won either the cup or very close. So I don't agree that winning brings fans to non-hockey markets.

What I am suggesting is folding two of those Franchises and bringing them back to Winnipeg and Quebec. With the Canadian dollar now at par the Economic circumstances for their success are there. Yet Gary is stuck in 1995 and refuses to budge or admit being wrong.

If you think those teams I named in my previous post you quoted are NHL successes then we don't see success in the same way.

Empty arenas does not equal success imo. Especially when they are kept afloat at the detriment of flourishing markets like Canadian markets and then you see teams like the Leafs and Oilers and Calgary struggling and being bottom-feeders. It's just not right.
I said they WERE full when they were successful and the fan support wanned when they started to suck. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Look up the attendance of those teams who had success when they were good vs now and you will see a stark contrast in attendance. Once there has been success, it's up to the franchise to keep the ball rolling and not become a bottom feeder as the teams you mention have become. San Jose is not a hockey market but there success has strengthened their fan base.

Secondly, Bettman has said on several occasions now that he'd like to bring back Canadian teams as the economic circumstances have changes since the 90's and they can support those teams. I don't know why you'd say he's living in the past?

Finally, I also said that the past is the past and the present the present. The circumstances have changed since the 90's but that doesn't change the reason why they left in the first place which is what I was clearly arguing. Fact of the matter is the Nordiques and Jets could NOT compete and be profitable franchises in those markets and that's why they left. They're not the victim of a league conspiracy to move Canadian franchises out of good markets to die in the US. Just like the Calagary Flames were once the Atalanta Flames, they moved in the hopes of making a better and more profitable franchise. Plain and simple.

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Old
07-22-2010, 06:10 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Fact of the matter is the Nordiques and Jets could NOT compete and be profitable franchises in those markets and that's why they left.
The Nordiques never lost a dime while they were in the league. Also, they were competing quite well in the last two years losing in the playoffs to the Stanley Cup Champs in '93 and '94.

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07-22-2010, 08:17 PM
  #58
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Yes

It doesn't matter if the fans hate him and hate his decisions. All that matters is that the fans come to the game. As stated by someone else already, the NHL needs a strong US and business takes time, marketing takes time, etc.

If he wasn't doing the job the owners want him to do, he would be gone already.

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07-22-2010, 08:26 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Film Noir View Post
The Nordiques never lost a dime while they were in the league. Also, they were competing quite well in the last two years losing in the playoffs to the Stanley Cup Champs in '93 and '94.

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn25/story/?id=285264

The reasons for the Nordiques' failure to remain in Quebec City were summed up by team president Marcel Aubut during the press conference announcing the club's move to Denver. "The new realities of the hockey industry, the size of the Quebec City market and the absence of adequate government help sounded the knell of the Nordiques," said Aubut. Quebec's group of owners sold the team to Denver for $103 million (US).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Nordiques

Aubut asked for a bailout from Quebec's provincial government, but the request was turned down, as the politicians did not want to be seen to be subsidizing a hockey club that paid multimillion-dollar salaries

People don't tend to ask for bail outs unless they need the money after having lost it.


Last edited by shutehinside: 07-22-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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07-22-2010, 08:40 PM
  #60
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First off all I come in Peace, I'm not trolling I already posted this on the Bruins, and Leafs Board, so I thought I would get the Option of you Habs Fans, I personally thing the Salary Cap was a great Idea. But Bettman is trying to sell Hockey to Americans moving team or giving expansions to city's that aren't really NHL markets Phoenix, Anaheim, Florida, San Jose, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Columbus. what it is doing is watering down the league. the NHL is getting as bad as the NBA. Please answer YES/NO then give a short reason why you feel that way.

Thank you for reading
I lived with Campbell and Ziegler. Betteman is clearly the better one I seen. Hockey is more popular than ever and he took some drastic steps to improve the game over the last few years. He may not be liked by most fans but those fans clearly did not watch hockey under Campbell or Ziegler....

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07-22-2010, 09:47 PM
  #61
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I lived with Campbell and Ziegler. Betteman is clearly the better one I seen. Hockey is more popular than ever and he took some drastic steps to improve the game over the last few years. He may not be liked by most fans but those fans clearly did not watch hockey under Campbell or Ziegler....
Clearly huh? Why because you say so. Many people watched hockey under both Campbell and Ziegler and still don't like Bettman. You don't speak for everyone. Bettman has done some things well. Drastic steps to improve the game, like?

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07-23-2010, 08:00 AM
  #62
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He imposed the salary cap but that hasn't been very useful so far as the players are laughing all the way to the bank. Again where are the revenues for the owners? Shouldn't they be asking these questions? Bettman cost them money with the Phoenix deal. Everything he does is failiure.
Wow... You really don't have a clue how the salary cap works, do you?

No surprise here.

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07-23-2010, 10:01 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sargent Pepper View Post
I lived with Campbell and Ziegler. Betteman is clearly the better one I seen. Hockey is more popular than ever and he took some drastic steps to improve the game over the last few years. He may not be liked by most fans but those fans clearly did not watch hockey under Campbell or Ziegler....
I watched and believe me I can't stand Bettman he is a terrible little vermin destroying our great game.

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07-23-2010, 10:27 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn25/story/?id=285264


People don't tend to ask for bail outs unless they need the money after having lost it.
They sold for a profit. The gain in value of the franchise was more substantial than the yearly losses.

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07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
  #65
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He's doing an awesome job. There are more american teams than Canadian. The NHL needs USA, a 12 team league would suck with 8-10 Cdn. The reality is Americans will not go and watch hockey in the USA if the opposing team is Canadian.
This is far from the reality. Generally, good teams (especially ones with star players) draw well on the road and bad teams draw poorly, regardless of where they are from. Check through the average attendance on the road across a number of years ...

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

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07-23-2010, 11:56 AM
  #66
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They sold for a profit. The gain in value of the franchise was more substantial than the yearly losses.
Selling for a profit doesn't mean they weren't loosing money while they owned the team. The reason they moved was because they clearly couldn't afford to stay in Quebec because of they money they were loosing. The selling price of the frnachise has nothing to do with the operation budget while they were operating the team.

If it was profitable to keep the team in Quebec, Aboud would have done so as he didn't want to sell or move the team. As it was not profitable and they were loosing money they had no choice but to sell the team.

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07-23-2010, 12:47 PM
  #67
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This is far from the reality. Generally, good teams (especially ones with star players) draw well on the road and bad teams draw poorly, regardless of where they are from. Check through the average attendance on the road across a number of years ...

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance
I was in Nashville last Nov for the HABS Preds game the barn had lots of empty seats in both upper and lower bowl. They have some great fans down there just not enough. They really need more corporate support in Nashville but they can't seem to draw in the corporations. They have a decent fan base but more does need to be done. Bettman is a tool that allowed teams to pop up in areas that they shouldn't be I don't begrudge those locations their teams but seriously when teams rely on Rev sharing to turn even a small profit in a season something is wrong. Teams spend below the halfway point of the cap and do so for the sole reason of getting full rev sharing and that is something that the tool Bettman brought in.

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07-23-2010, 12:57 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Ok I understand about the Canadian dollar and it's crippling of the Jets and Nords franchises but,

For the second point of what you are saying the facts don't support your argument/theory.

The Florida Panthers made the Finals, T-Bay won the Cup, Anaheim won the Cup and all of these teams are in the bottom 10 in terms of attendance last year. Also last year Pheonix had an incredibly exciting young, winning team and they were dead last in the NHL in attendance.

So, very nice theory but it's just not the case that winning brings people to games in those markets.

They are not hockey markets and until Bettman is out we will continue to have a diluted, boring product supported by people in healthy markets. Like I said before if you guys enjoy watching hockey games when they are too embarassed to show the stands on tv then there is no point in arguing over this.

All I am asking for is full arenas. Why should WE support teams for other cities that don't care for hockey? It's absolute nonsense in my view.

Just adding my 2 centsÖ

Besides the NFL, what other league doesnít have teams that donít consistently sell out their arenas?
The answer is ZERO.
Take a look at some of the attendance for the NBA. http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Itís already been stated, but winning counts when attendance is brought into the conversation.
Every league has teams that are considered the crown jewels. These teams have a lot of history and will probably sell out even if the team never wins.
As someone who goes to a lot of Duck games, I can attest the area down here is full of front runnersÖwin and the people show up. Start losing and they donít. Remember, So.Cal. has a TON of people who originally lived somewhere else (including me) so the local team probably isnít the team they rooted for growing up.
I am a Hab fan first, but will go see the Ducks play IF the team is worth the 1 1/2 hour drive and the money needed to attend. If they suck, I am staying home.
As for Phoenix, it looked like the team was going to move the last couple of years. As a fan, why would I invest in the team when they are probably gone anyway?

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07-23-2010, 02:11 PM
  #69
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They have a decent fan base but more does need to be done. Bettman is a tool that allowed teams to pop up in areas that they shouldn't be I don't begrudge those locations their teams but seriously when teams rely on Rev sharing to turn even a small profit in a season something is wrong. Teams spend below the halfway point of the cap and do so for the sole reason of getting full rev sharing and that is something that the tool Bettman brought in.
Revenue sharing is a way for teams to afford competitive payrolls, not to make profits (not all Bettman's fault here). The NHL revenue-sharing system is complicated and contingent on maximizing local revenues and getting better at generating revenues each year. Teams that coast on these responsibilities do not get any revenue sharing benefits.

The team payroll floor is also a lot higher than one-half of the cap.

Bettman is hired to protect and promote the financial interests of the owners. It is easy to argue that he has done that. He's not necessarily the brightest hockey mind, but he is hardly a "tool".

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07-23-2010, 03:29 PM
  #70
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I said they WERE full when they were successful and the fan support wanned when they started to suck. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Look up the attendance of those teams who had success when they were good vs now and you will see a stark contrast in attendance. Once there has been success, it's up to the franchise to keep the ball rolling and not become a bottom feeder as the teams you mention have become. San Jose is not a hockey market but there success has strengthened their fan base.

Secondly, Bettman has said on several occasions now that he'd like to bring back Canadian teams as the economic circumstances have changes since the 90's and they can support those teams. I don't know why you'd say he's living in the past?

Finally, I also said that the past is the past and the present the present. The circumstances have changed since the 90's but that doesn't change the reason why they left in the first place which is what I was clearly arguing. Fact of the matter is the Nordiques and Jets could NOT compete and be profitable franchises in those markets and that's why they left. They're not the victim of a league conspiracy to move Canadian franchises out of good markets to die in the US. Just like the Calagary Flames were once the Atalanta Flames, they moved in the hopes of making a better and more profitable franchise. Plain and simple.
Ok so they were full for a while when the success was there. They are fairweather fans then which actually supports what I'm saying. These franchises HAVE to win whereas in HOCKEY markets like (insert Canadian city here or Northern American one) it doesn't matter. People eat live and breathe hockey in these markets and they don't and never will in the Southern belt. Yet the teams are still there and are being supported by the rest of the league at our expense. A point I've mentioned a few times which you haven't touched upon btw. That is why Gary Bettman failed miserably.

Again, let's see Pheonix's attendance this year and we'll talk. I bet they are close to last again despite an amazing season last year and a very respectable playoff run.

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07-23-2010, 10:38 PM
  #71
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Revenue sharing is a way for teams to afford competitive payrolls, not to make profits (not all Bettman's fault here). The NHL revenue-sharing system is complicated and contingent on maximizing local revenues and getting better at generating revenues each year. Teams that coast on these responsibilities do not get any revenue sharing benefits.

The team payroll floor is also a lot higher than one-half of the cap.

Bettman is hired to protect and promote the financial interests of the owners. It is easy to argue that he has done that. He's not necessarily the brightest hockey mind, but he is hardly a "tool".
Ask the fans in Nashville about this their team stays below the mid point of the cap and scrounges for 14 thousand fans in hopes of getting their full 10 mil in Rev sharing and with that money they turn a small profit. I know I have friends in nashville that for whatever reason know this crap. Their whole team filosophy seems to be built around this idea that if we can get these seats sold and stay at this dollar figure we will get all teh rev sharing and thus make a small profit.

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07-24-2010, 05:20 AM
  #72
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Just about everything in this post is wrong.

A few players (Ovechkin, Hossa, ...) are making lots of money but it's not clear whether or not their salaries would have been higher without the cap. Many more players are making less. HOw do you think Dominque Moore feels? Is he laughing all the way to the bank?

The owners are overjoyed with the cap. Every franchise increased in value with the advent of the cap. How do you think George Gillette felt selling the Habs for $650 million? Is he unhappy with Bettman?

The owners saved lots of money when Bettman defeated Balsille. Just wait until they sell someone an expansion franchise for Hamilton or Toronto. They will get much much more than Balsille was offering. Plus they can still sell the Coyotes.

In fact the amazing thin about Bettman is that everything he does he succeeds at. The majority of people said that Balsille would use his vast resouces and his business smarts to crush Bettman. But instead Bettman won a complete victory. The same thinkg happened when he took on the NHLPA over the salary cap. Name one confrontation he has lost.
Victories to allow him to do what he wants to do. Not victories that help the NHL.

He's probably the greatest con man i've ever seen.

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07-24-2010, 07:40 AM
  #73
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I think it's funny when Gary Bettman goes on Hockey Night in Canada. They really harrass him. Other than that, we'll get our teams anyways, in a 5 years span, so he's not doing such a bad job afterall.

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07-24-2010, 07:58 AM
  #74
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Ok so they were full for a while when the success was there. They are fairweather fans then which actually supports what I'm saying. These franchises HAVE to win whereas in HOCKEY markets like (insert Canadian city here or Northern American one) it doesn't matter. People eat live and breathe hockey in these markets and they don't and never will in the Southern belt. Yet the teams are still there and are being supported by the rest of the league at our expense. A point I've mentioned a few times which you haven't touched upon btw. That is why Gary Bettman failed miserably.

Again, let's see Pheonix's attendance this year and we'll talk. I bet they are close to last again despite an amazing season last year and a very respectable playoff run.
I haven't touched upon it because I was talking about what preciprated those two franchises leaving in the past. I mentioned several times that that was no longer the case for the most part today. Also, that comment isn't entirely true either. Edmonton and Ottawa also receive payments from the NHL if I'm not mistaken. Add to that I think your view of a Canadian team can automatically support a team because they wouldn't be fair weather fans and I once again can't agree with that statement either. Not to go into too much detail but a US based team in a huge market can mostly survive on a subsidized arena (they don't pay for it and receive extremely favorable concessions) larger tv deals and merchandising to a much larger population etc rather than on ticket sales. The Devils are a great example of this. They hardly ever sell out bit the market size alone is enough to support them and make them more profitable them even the most die hard fans would he able to support in a place like Winnipeg.
Ultimately Betman said very frankly that things have changed and he would like to bring teams back to Canada because they can be profitable NOW. That wasn't the case 15 years ago though.

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07-24-2010, 11:04 AM
  #75
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Victories to allow him to do what he wants to do. Not victories that help the NHL.

He's probably the greatest con man i've ever seen.
In your previous post you conclude by saying "Everything he does is failiure." No you say that his victories allow him to do what he wants.

Also do you think he conned Balsillie or perhaps he conned the judge? Did he con the NHLPA into adopting the salary cap?

But maybe he is a con man. All sorts of people think he is an incompetent boob. Yet the reality is that he never seems to lose a battle.

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