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Old
07-23-2010, 12:30 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Well Clowe would fit on the 3rd line in the spot where you have Cogs...not sure about Fleishschmann though.
So we give up two young players plus two draft picks for a player that fits on the 3rd line and another that has no place on the club.

Seems a little shortsighted, no?

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07-23-2010, 12:36 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I agree, 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees, but the Caps will be hard pressed to re-sign Semin next year and everyone knows it, so his trade value takes a hit immediately. Simon Gagne is a 30 goal scorer (and much more complete player) than Semin, and got beans because everyone knew that the Flyers had to dump him. Its a similar situation. Not as drastic, but very similar. Johnson had a bounce back season, and the Kings don't want to move him. He is guaranteed to be with them for years, much more than just one season like Semin is at this point. Obvoiusly Semin is the better player right now, but its the contract terms that make Johnson more valuable on the trade market.

I think the rumor has been that the Caps have been looking for a powerplay shooter...I don't understand why with Green on the team, but I have heard that rumor a couple of places.
Does nobody realize just how much cap space the Caps have??? Right now they're $5m off the cap to 18 players WITH Nylander included.... so really they're $10m below the cap. Even if Fleischmann gets a $4m arbitration award (my bet is aroudn $3.5m), they've still got $6m to add defenceman.

Next year, Knuble problably wont be back and if he is, will be at less than $2.8m. Laich is in in line for a raise from his $2.2m, but not really that much. Bradley/Gordon really aren't that big pieces of the puzzle. On D, they've obviously still got some holes right now, but Poti and Erskine ($4.75 combined) are off the books aswell. Meanwhile, Semin already makes $6m on the cap, how much more is he realisticaly going to get?? 7? 8? It's not like they're looking at adding $5m to the cap hit, the caps can handle an increase of $1-2m pretty easily. To me, the only justification for trading Semin is if they're going to sign Kovalchuk.

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07-23-2010, 12:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
So we give up two young players plus two draft picks for a player that fits on the 3rd line and another that has no place on the club.

Seems a little shortsighted, no?
I agree...I have not expressed interest in completing this trade either. Its not good for all teams involved.

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07-23-2010, 12:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Does nobody realize just how much cap space the Caps have??? Right now they're $5m off the cap to 18 players WITH Nylander included.... so really they're $10m below the cap. Even if Fleischmann gets a $4m arbitration award (my bet is aroudn $3.5m), they've still got $6m to add defenceman.

Next year, Knuble problably wont be back and if he is, will be at less than $2.8m. Laich is in in line for a raise from his $2.2m, but not really that much. Bradley/Gordon really aren't that big pieces of the puzzle. On D, they've obviously still got some holes right now, but Poti and Erskine ($4.75 combined) are off the books aswell. Meanwhile, Semin already makes $6m on the cap, how much more is he realisticaly going to get?? 7? 8? It's not like they're looking at adding $5m to the cap hit, the caps can handle an increase of $1-2m pretty easily. To me, the only justification for trading Semin is if they're going to sign Kovalchuk.
My point was that Semin only has one year left...he may get a huge offer from a KHL team that the Caps can't match. He might decide he wants to go somewhere and be the man instead of being in OV's shadow. Its hard to say at this point, one year left on his contract means that he isn't a long term solution to any problem, and the Kings wouldn't give up Jack Johnson to get just him back.

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07-23-2010, 12:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I think its an overpayment for Murray alone, and the Sharks would likely need to move more salary too. Take out Deslauriers (the Sharks don't need a young goalie with Greiss and Stalock both waiting in the wings) and add in a salary dump type guy from San Jose (maybe Huskins or Mitchell, not sure), and this trade looks somewhat plausible then. Might need a small something going back from Edmonton.

To SJ: Souray, Cogs, Chorney (or 4th pick)
To Edmonton: Murray and either Mitchell or Huskins
Its not about overpayment.. Its about filling the needs.. Murray solidifys our D and being a Sweede helps out Omark, Paajarvi and eventualy Lander on our team.
Three serviceable peices but ones we can get by without.

SJ has ~6M of capspace and would want smaller salaries like Cogliano and JDDs filling out the roster.

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07-23-2010, 12:41 PM
  #56
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we dont want blake
we got rid of our cancers in our locker room and dont intend to bring more in (social cancer, not medical)

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07-23-2010, 12:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
My point was that Semin only has one year left...he may get a huge offer from a KHL team that the Caps can't match. He might decide he wants to go somewhere and be the man instead of being in OV's shadow. Its hard to say at this point, one year left on his contract means that he isn't a long term solution to any problem, and the Kings wouldn't give up Jack Johnson to get just him back.
There are a lot of players with one year left on their contracts.. Im sure SJ is not talking about trading Thornton yet since he'll also be a UFA after next season. Caps are going for the cup.. worrying about having to dump a 30+ goal scorer because he'll be UFA in a year is least of their concerns..

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07-23-2010, 12:44 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
Its not about overpayment.. Its about filling the needs.. Murray solidifys our D and being a Sweede helps out Omark, Paajarvi and eventualy Lander on our team.
Three serviceable peices but ones we can get by without.

SJ has ~6M of capspace and would want smaller salaries like Cogliano and JDDs filling out the roster.
Maybe, but Souray's 5.5 cap space would eat into that. And I still doubt that Deslauriers has any value to the Sharks with Greiss and Stalock there. Maybe Chorney instead of Deslauriers. I do want Murray, and if I were Tambellini, I would overpay to get him, so I don't have any major issues with your proposal. I do think the Sharks would still want to clear more salary though.

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07-23-2010, 12:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Lol I'm a Ducks/Bears fan so I guess we are friends here and enemies off.
Ducks/Colts
I don't know where that leaves us.

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07-23-2010, 12:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Coffey Maker View Post
we dont want blake
we got rid of our cancers in our locker room and dont intend to bring more in (social cancer, not medical)
Blake is locker room cancer? This is news to me.

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Old
07-23-2010, 01:12 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Coffey Maker View Post
we dont want blake
we got rid of our cancers in our locker room and dont intend to bring more in (social cancer, not medical)
I've heard probably most of the criticisms towards Blake. That one's new.

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Old
07-23-2010, 01:18 PM
  #62
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Oilers fan here. I'll say one thing, Blake must save his best games for when I'm watching because he was always one of the best players on the ice when I watched him the last few years.

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Old
07-23-2010, 01:18 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
There are a lot of players with one year left on their contracts.. Im sure SJ is not talking about trading Thornton yet since he'll also be a UFA after next season. Caps are going for the cup.. worrying about having to dump a 30+ goal scorer because he'll be UFA in a year is least of their concerns..
No, Thornton is not for trade. Neither is Semin. But look at it from a Kings perspective. Why would they give up Jack Johnson for one year of Semin? That would be an awful deal. They would be giving up one of the best young d-men in hockey for one year of Semin, and it would be much worse than what the other teams in these offers are getting. Jack Johnson has more value right now than Semin does.

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07-23-2010, 01:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MGorgon View Post
Nobody. He cleared waivers, the only way he's being moved is if the Oilers take an equally bad/worse contract or someone claims him on re-entry.
Souray is not subject to re-entry waivers. He cleared waivers, he was not sent down to the minors. He can be sent down because he cleared waivers, but just because he cleared waivers does not mean he has to be sent down.

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07-23-2010, 01:39 PM
  #65
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Maybe a simpler deal

Souray + Cogliano

for

Clowe + Huskins

Or something along those lines.

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07-23-2010, 01:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Maybe a simpler deal

Souray + Cogliano

for

Clowe + Huskins

Or something along those lines.
I don't want to trade Cogs but this deal at least makes some sense from Edmonton's perspective.

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07-23-2010, 01:48 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Maybe a simpler deal

Souray + Cogliano

for

Clowe + Huskins

Or something along those lines.
That might work...I would love to try to get Huskins upgraded to Murray, but that might be stretching things a bit. Would it work if the Oilers did something like this:

Souray, Cogliano and a 2nd round pick

for

Clowe and Murray

Not sure, I know the Sharks are in win now mode, so the pick might not make a difference to them.

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07-23-2010, 01:59 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
That might work...I would love to try to get Huskins upgraded to Murray, but that might be stretching things a bit. Would it work if the Oilers did something like this:

Souray, Cogliano and a 2nd round pick

for

Clowe and Murray

Not sure, I know the Sharks are in win now mode, so the pick might not make a difference to them.
Why give up a second round pick? Good chance that pick is in the 30-38 range. Depending on how things go there might be a player ranked as high as 15th on Edmonton's list when the second round rolls around.

Edmonton would be wiser to go after Andy Sutton if they need a defensive D. Give him 3.5 million dollars on a 1 year deal and then deal him at the deadline for a 2nd round pick when Edmonton is out of the playoffs. Keep in mind that Murray is already 30 and by the time Edmonton is pushing for the playoffs he will be a UFA and 33 years old with his best years behind him.

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07-23-2010, 02:02 PM
  #69
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Souray has no value, at all. So you want Murray and Mitchell for a 3rd? Murray is worth at least a 2nd on his own.

The Smid deal was something like:
Clowe
Murray
Mitchell
Joslin (or Huskins)

For

Smid
Souray
Cogliano

It's a pretty good deal. Since Souray is not part of the value equation your getting Clowe, Murray, Mitchell and Joslin for Smid and Cogs, plus a salary dump in Souray. To be honest, it's a bit of an overpayment on our side, but we need to clear the cap space anyway so I'm ok with it.
My response was to the Sharks fan who proposed Souray+3rd for Mitchell+Murray.

If it's going to cost Smid+Cogliano to get rid of Souray than the Oilers are better off just keeping him.

You say Souray isn't part of the value equation because he is a dump. Yet in the next sentence you say that your team needs to clear space too. So inherently part of the deal you are offering is a salary dump also.

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07-23-2010, 02:16 PM
  #70
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Quoting isn't working for some reason, but those two comments are not equal.

Souray is a dump because he's a problem for the Oilers. You don't need to move salary, you need to move a player.

We need to move salary to afford that player, but we don't have enough 'bad' contracts to just 'dump'. So instead, we need to move a couple players with value in return for value. Clowe and Murray have a lot of value, which is why we would need to find a deal where we swap some of our value for some of yours (downgrade in talent, but downgrade in salary too).

If you want Murray for Souray, you are in fantasyland, there is absolutely no chance of that. It would make more sense for us to trade Murray and Clowe to some other team in turn in return for draft picks and prospects and then just pick up Souray off waivers again, or for a 7th or something. He has no value, your team has made that clear.

So my proposal moves Souray and two players you've already attempted to trade at least once, for good value. Clowe is a productive top-6 talent on one of the best teams in the league. Cogliano is a 3rd liner with some upside, but has not broken out yet (and may never). Murray is a top-4 d-man, one of the biggest hitters in the game, and an excellent shut-down dman. He is better than Smid is right now, but he costs more and Smid still has upside. Plus I was sending you Mitchell and Joslin (Joslin is an NHL ready defensemen with the hardest shot in the NHL).

Still, if you don't like the deal, fine. I thought it worked well for both teams, but if not, so be it.

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Old
07-23-2010, 02:35 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
That might work...I would love to try to get Huskins upgraded to Murray, but that might be stretching things a bit. Would it work if the Oilers did something like this:

Souray, Cogliano and a 2nd round pick

for

Clowe and Murray

Not sure, I know the Sharks are in win now mode, so the pick might not make a difference to them.
Change the 2nd to a 3rd rounder, and I'd do it. Oilers will need to retain their 1st/2nd rounders as they're in a rebuild.

Including Murray and Smid and all that just over-complicates the deal. Yeah Murray would be OK, but not at the expense of Smid. The Oilers aren't exactly competing for a Cup next season, Huskins will be an OK veteran stop gap.

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07-23-2010, 02:39 PM
  #72
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Change the 2nd to a 3rd rounder, and I'd do it. Oilers will need to retain their 1st/2nd rounders as they're in a rebuild.

Including Murray and Smid and all that just over-complicates the deal. Yeah Murray would be OK, but not at the expense of Smid. The Oilers aren't exactly competing for a Cup next season, Huskins will be an OK veteran stop gap.
Since Souray has no value, you really thing Clowe + Murray is worth Cogliano and a 3rd?

Really? You guys need to step into reality.

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Old
07-23-2010, 02:42 PM
  #73
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Since Souray has no value, you really thing Clowe + Murray is worth Cogliano and a 3rd?

Really? You guys need to step into reality.
The deal I'm proposing is Souray + Cogs + 3rd for Clowe + Huskins.

No Murray or any of that other stuff. Eight player deals or whatever don't happen in reality all that often anyway.

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07-23-2010, 02:48 PM
  #74
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The deal I'm proposing is Souray + Cogs + 3rd for Clowe + Huskins.

No Murray or any of that other stuff. Eight player deals or whatever don't happen in reality all that often anyway.
Still overpayment on the Sharks' part.

To the Oilers, Souray has negative value. He clearly will be moved off the team somehow - trade, minors or the couch... So Clowe + Huskins for Cogs + 3rd is just that - overpayment.

Change the 3rd to a 2nd? Maybe. I'd pass.
Take out Clowe and add Murray or Mitchell? Possibly.
Change the 3rd to Smid? Better for Sharks, but we'd probably have to add something - Mitchell, Joslin, a pick? Not sure..

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07-23-2010, 02:50 PM
  #75
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Honestly if there's no decent deal to be had, I would just keep Souray. Within 20-30 games, there's a good chance he'd be able to boost his trade value next season, and he's already said he'd be open to coming back. The guy may have his question marks, but he's definitely money on the PP and you can't teach that kind of a shot.

With Hall, the Oilers finally have a down low shooter that can create space for the point shots as well.

So really IMO it's more of management holding a grudge here, both sides should just sit down and bury the hatchet rather than doing something like taking on Jason Blake, who's completely redundant for the Oilers.

Smid is pretty much a no-go ... we just don't have the depth on D to let him go as part of a dump for Souray. We're very thin on young d-men in our system. You can't be throwing away 2 young players who were 1st round picks just to get rid of a 2-year contract if you're rebuilding. That's a huge no-no.


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