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MLD 2010 Mickey Ion 1st round: #1 Toronto Marlies vs. #8 Cornwall Royals

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Old
07-17-2010, 10:48 PM
  #26
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Before and after the 30 year old Kamensky won the cup with Colorado he did use his 6'2 190 lbs strong frame to go through traffic. He excelled at carrying the puck across the opposing blueline through defenders during the so-called Dead Puck Era. He and Forsberg did it as well as anyone. No dump and chase for them.

Here is Kamensky taking no more crap from Ulf Samuelsson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Jw2IsW_yM

Coach Don Cherry and his "Euros are soft" crap never applied to Kamensky as it didn't to so many ex-Soviets. Valeri did not seek out a HIT, did not throw his body at guys along the boards. He was not a CHECKER. But he was offensively indeed a power forward in that he carried the puck through traffic, used his size and strength to help move the puck and himself into and around the offensive zone. He is underrated in this regard.
Cosidering Kamensky isn't on either one of our teams, does it really matter if Kamensky was a power forward or not? It's not about him. This is about Zhluktov, and nobody has presented a legitimate source describing his physical play.

Take a look at his PIM totals in the Soviet League - according to the numbers I could find, he averaged about 12 per season and never had more than 18. That doesn't sound like a battering ram to me.....

Asside from one fantastic Canada Cup, what did he accomplish? He was never top-10 in scoring for any other tournament.

His Soviet League totals are very modest - 5th, 10th, 10th in points, but was never a top-2 scorer on his team.

Really, asside from one Canada Cup and season, he was basically a mediocre player on a powerhouse team.

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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Zhluktov could move like a buzzsaw through the Marlies defense. Don't expect Savard to handle the matchup well.

Why could he move like a buzzsaw though our defense? If you know anything about his style of play, you should probably share it with the rest of us, because I'm quite sure nobody really knows anything about how he played.

We know he was big, but we also know he took very few penalties. We also know he was a pretty mediocre offensive player who had 1 good year and 1 good week.

Why does Marc Savard, one of the best offensive players in this draft, have to worry about stopping somebody else?


Last edited by Dreakmur: 07-17-2010 at 10:56 PM.
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07-18-2010, 12:21 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Zhluktov could move like a buzzsaw through the Marlies defense. Don't expect Savard to handle the matchup well.

Pretty much what Dreakmur said. Your source for his supposed powerforward game is not legitimate- and based on the fact that you had to stoop to such sources, I doubt you have anything more legitimate backing that claim up.

And we haven't exactly made matchups yet either...I'm basically learning about this team in-depth with comparisons, and I'll reserve on that until I know a bit more about the defensive capabilities of the Royals bottom-6.


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 07-18-2010 at 01:27 AM.
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07-18-2010, 01:20 AM
  #28
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Red Hamill-Doc Romnes-Art Gagne vs Yevgeny Zimin - Viktor Shuvalov - Yuri Pantyukhov

Another line that features one guy that impressed me somewhat, and two more questionable linemates.

I'll do position on position here.

Red Hamill vs Yevgeny Zimin
Very little provided on this. 2 goals in his 2 summit series is nice, but then no matter what level of play we speak of, 2 games is not enough of a sample size. Apparently 28 goals in 71 internationally- doesn't impress me unless you provide the context I covet. (perhaps Dreak will do the courtesy of providing that one again). Nothing on intangibles. Some nice team accomplishments, but then did he really contribute well to those? Unless we see something more shown on this guy, I don't understand why he belongs in the ATD.

Red Hamill on the other hand, we know just about everything about- and how impressive he is. An impressive 2nd, 3rd, and 9th in goals (in 1942, 1943, and 1946, respectively, granted).

A lacking playoff record, but the majority of his games come from before he hit his offensive stride. And the fact that he was able to stick on a cup winner for 12 games while providing no offense says something about his toughness- another thing we know- he was tough, tough, tough. Described as a "early day Wendel-Clark type hockey player" by Joe Pelletier, a "tough, hard hitting winger" by LOH, his reputation being for hard-hitting. He lacks PIMS too, a dream for a tough guy, he was evidently very clean.

Nothing has been shown or said on Zimin's intangibles, leading me to believe Hamill, a well noted tough player, well bests him in that regard. Zimin's offensive numbers are limited, and what is shown,doesn't impress me nearly as much as Hamill's 3 top-10 goal scoring seasons, including a 2nd and a 3rd (even if not in the strongest time for the NHL). Unless we see some kind of mindblowing new evidence on Zimin, I think it's large edge Hamill.

Doc Romnes vs Viktor Shuvalov
Shuvalov is a much more impressive and clear player. Played in 50's Russia, a rather unimpressive time, but put up some impressive numbers- 2nd, 2nd, 3rd in Russian international tournaments (placing behind Guryshev and Bobrov), 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th in RSL scoring- and those RSL seasons often seperated from Bobrov/Babich. Pretty impressive stuff, and if you like Bobrov's offense, well then Shuvalov doesn't seem too far behind- and he lacks all the character deficencies and intagible issues.

Of course, none of these numbers came in best on best scenarios, and Romnes has his own impressive assists-based resume (3rd, 4th, 7th, 15th in NHL assists, 4th in NHL points) in known best on best scenarios. And for my money, Romnes superb playoff record compares to or bests what could be called Shuvalov's "playoffs" record (his international scoring finishes)- 2nd, 5th, 10th in playoffs points- 1st, 2nd, 6th in playoff assists- two time cup winner- and all in best on best situations.

As far as intangibles go, Romnes has a nice quote from the back of his hockey card calling him "one of the best defensive players in the national hockey league". Shuvalov is a good character guy, and has a quote saying he would fall back and take up a defense position if need be, suggesting him a conscious defensive player- but I don't think it's nearly as good as a quote coming right out and saying Romnes as one of the best defensive players in the best league in the world. Neither is a tough player, as far as we know. I'd say Romnes has an intangible egde due to defense.

Who has an offensive edge is pretty based on your impression of 50's Russia. Shuvalov does have an impressive regular season resume however, probably better than Romnes- but Romnes is more comprable in the playoffs production. Shuvalov likely does have somewhat of an offensive edge- bridged somewhat by Romnes apparent better defensive play. I think these two guys are fairly close, perhaps an edge to Shuvalov.

Art Gagne vs Yuri Pantyukhov
Another mystery of sorts in Pantyukhov. Played in the 1950s Russia, where you really have to be a standout or beyond, but it doesn't seem like he was that. A second-liner apparently, according to VanIslander. No numbers or quotes or intangibles provided by anyone. Even VanIslander, evidently at least somewhat a Royal's support, doesn't think much of him.

Art Gagne, however, was a star in a league much more comparable to the NHL, making a WCHL first and second all-star team, and a quite impressive WHL (merged PCHA and WCHL) first all-star team. He had a pretty good NHL season after the WHL folded as well, a 6th in goals, 7th in assists, and a 6th in points. Another impressive season in the WHL, with a 3rd in points, 3rd in goals, and 5th in assists- and a good 3 points in 2 WHL playoff games, putting him near the top for the WHL playoffs that year.

The WCHL is generally less appreciated given it operated with both the PCHA and NHL around, but it wasn't far off from them, and Gagne put up some more impressive seasons there as well. 7 goals, 8 points in 14 WCHL playoff games (including a year where he was 2nd in points and goals- but that was with only 1 goal, given that the playoffs herre were verrry short. He only got to play 3 games in the one trip to the cup finals he got. Still, 8 points in 14 games seem pretty solid production).

He of course put up those impressive all-star years in the WCHL, including leading the league in points and assists in 1923. All of these fairly reputable offensive accomplishments should be a large edge over the mystery that is Pantyukhov.

For the record, according to seventies consistency in scoring threads (which try and adjust for the multi-leaugue era through looking at the various numbers and competitiveness levels, and trying to be more precise by not being as specific) Gagne has 1 top-2 assist finish, 2 top-5 assist finishes, 3 top-10 assist finishes, 1 top-5 goal finish, and 2 top-10 assist finishes. (these can pretty much be counted as NHL-equal achievements- and much of these came from his NHL and WHL seasons, two unquestionably good hockey leagues).

Gagne is also a feisty and gritty forward, as evident by Dreak's bio.An intangible edge on the mystery of Pantyukhov, as a result.

Gagne's fairly extensive offensive resume and gritty play, I feel, gives a very large edge on Pantyukhov, a 50's russian mystery who seems rather unimpressive.

Overall: Though centre seems fairly close, perhaps an edge to Shuvalov, it nowhere near makes up the large edge I feel we have on the wings. Not to mention that there is no rea levidence of toughness anywhere on this line, which could well result in this line getting pushed around in a head to head matchup with our 2nd line. Fairly large edge to our 2nd line, I think.

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07-18-2010, 03:01 AM
  #29
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Not that it's really my business, since I don't have anything to do with this draft, but I just can't help commenting on my favourite players.

Sergei Kapustin

I guess he never made it to a truly legendary player, although it's hard to pinpoint the qualities he lacked; very good stickhandler, hard and accurate shot, fairly big and physical (for a Soviet forward) and most of all, one of the fastest skaters of all-time, with one of the most powerful strides I've ever seen; think of Frank Mahovlich, but with more finesse & speed. He was always playing behind Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov or KLM, that was one of his problems. Plus looking at the old footage, he does seem quite uncharismatic and colorless, even for a Soviet player. Yet he managed to get a couple of all-star nominations in the World Championships and sometimes even outscore his more famous teammates. Yes, I'd say he was one of the best "NON-top line players" in Soviet hockey history, certainly behind Maltsev, Starshinov and Yakushev but above guys like Shalimov, Bykov, Khomutov, Kamensky and definitely Zhluktov.

People are putting way too much weight on single "best on best" tournaments sometimes. So Zhluktov had 9 points in 1976? Why wasn't he even chosen as the team MVP (that was Maltsev) then? If I remember correctly, he had one monster game against star-struck Finland (who stank the joint out in every game except vs. Sweden [national pride was at stake there!]), where he scored 4 goals, I think. Did he play any other great games; for example, did he score any goals or assists vs. Canada or Czechoslovakia? The answer is no. Sometimes you have analyze those numbers a little bit.

Anyway, Kapustin was and is considered definitely a superior player than Zhluktov. Yes, the other one was a left wing (Kapustin) and the other a center, but they played at the same time (from mid-70s to mid-80s) against the same type of opponents. Here are some of their numbers & 'awards':

Kapustin
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=k003

Zhluktov
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=z010

I don't really see anything that suggests that Zhluktov was a better player, internationally or domestically. Not to mention, I don't think anyone who has seen them both play could claim that Zhluktov was superior.

By the way, here are all-time goal-scorers for Team USSR (Kapustin 10th, Zhluktov 19th):
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_to...l&country=allc


Last edited by VMBM: 07-18-2010 at 03:11 AM.
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07-18-2010, 11:30 AM
  #30
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I can certainly agree that Kasputin is better than Zhluktov after looking at both of them closely (I don't think anyone had said Zhluktov was better in here). I dunno that Kasputinis above the other guys you mention, but I haven't done a close comparison between those guys and him.

I don't think we put too much stock in best on best- because in scenarios where that isn't the case, it's often just soviet domination over much weaker teams. However, one good best on best tournament, no matter how good, does not make an offensive resume, and that's pretty much all that can be said of Zhluktov's offense.

I here you say he was "fairly big and physical (for a soviet forward)"- the non bracketed part supported by Kings of the Ice. But then you add that bracket in- how physical was he by all-time draft or NHL standards, in your view? (you sound like you watched and/or researched these guys)

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07-18-2010, 01:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I can certainly agree that Kasputin is better than Zhluktov after looking at both of them closely (I don't think anyone had said Zhluktov was better in here). I dunno that Kasputinis above the other guys you mention, but I haven't done a close comparison between those guys and him.
Asside from his good accomplishments in tournaments, he had 4 good seasons in the Soviet League - 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 8th in goals, but nothing else that's really even close to top 10. While there isn't much longevity there, it's still a pretty decent peak.

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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I don't think we put too much stock in best on best- because in scenarios where that isn't the case, it's often just soviet domination over much weaker teams. However, one good best on best tournament, no matter how good, does not make an offensive resume, and that's pretty much all that can be said of Zhluktov's offense.
He meant VI was putting too much stock in a single tournament.

As I said earlier, asside from that tournament, Zhluktov is very inimpressive.... and as it turns our (according to VMBM) he wasn't even great in the Canada Cup.

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07-18-2010, 01:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I can certainly agree that Kasputin is better than Zhluktov after looking at both of them closely (I don't think anyone had said Zhluktov was better in here). I dunno that Kasputinis above the other guys you mention, but I haven't done a close comparison between those guys and him.

I don't think we put too much stock in best on best- because in scenarios where that isn't the case, it's often just soviet domination over much weaker teams. However, one good best on best tournament, no matter how good, does not make an offensive resume, and that's pretty much all that can be said of Zhluktov's offense.

I here you say he was "fairly big and physical (for a soviet forward)"- the non bracketed part supported by Kings of the Ice. But then you add that bracket in- how physical was he by all-time draft or NHL standards, in your view? (you sound like you watched and/or researched these guys)
It was just your suggestion - though admittedly a tentative one - that Zhluktov is the 'star of the line' that sort of caught my eye and made me go "no no no" .

Well, I don't think Kapustin would have been called "physical" had he been North American; he certainly relied more on his great skating, but on the other hand, did not shy away from combat nor was bothered by it, as maybe some of his high-skilled teammates like Vikulov and Maltsev* who seemed to be much more at ease with the European style of play. So I would never call Kapustin a 'power forward' or anything like that.

* it should be noted though that despite his disappointing numbers and seemingly mediocre play versus Canada/NHL (i.e. "the best") and critisism by some Soviet journalists, Maltsev was highly regarded by many Canadian players: Bobby Clarke, Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito, to name a few.

In case anyone has missed, the USSR vs. Canada game from the 1976 Canada Cup is available online - courtesy of poster Dark Shadows (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...8934933&hl=en#) - and there one can see Kapustin, Zhluktov etc. In the beginning of the 3rd period (approx 58:20), Kapustin shows his great speed, as he blows past Serge Savard and has a scoring chance. Overall, the game is quite entertaining, though a bit lackluster, mainly because the Soviets are missing many of their best forwards.

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07-18-2010, 02:07 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As I said earlier, asside from that tournament, Zhluktov is very inimpressive.... and as it turns our (according to VMBM) he wasn't even great in the Canada Cup.
I just checked, and 6 out of Zhluktov's 9 points at the 1976 CC were scored against Finland (1 pt vs. SWE, 2 pts vs. USA), so to me at least that puts them in perspective a bit. Not that he was the only player who benefited from having a great game against the poor Finland...

I think I would use words like 'good' and 'reliable', if I had to, er, praise Zhluktov.

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07-20-2010, 12:37 PM
  #34
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It was just your suggestion - though admittedly a tentative one - that Zhluktov is the 'star of the line' that sort of caught my eye and made me go "no no no" .
You're right, I did say that- my mistake to do so.

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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I just checked, and 6 out of Zhluktov's 9 points at the 1976 CC were scored against Finland (1 pt vs. SWE, 2 pts vs. USA), so to me at least that puts them in perspective a bit. Not that he was the only player who benefited from having a great game against the poor Finland...

I think I would use words like 'good' and 'reliable', if I had to, er, praise Zhluktov.
So it seems his one good tournament is actually not that good..interesting.

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07-20-2010, 01:57 PM
  #35
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Jan Erixon-Brian Rolston-Cecil Blanchford vs Valentin Kuzin - Alexander Uvarov (C) - Yuri Krylov

I'l to position by position again, since I see no reason to do otherwise.

Jan Erixon vs Valentin Kuzin
Another bit of a mystery. Nothing provided to suggest he has any defensive or intangible abilitiy, other than he apparently played on a 3rd line with the USSR. His career stats don't seem bad, but no context provided, plus this is 1950's Russia we're talking about- unless he is leading or close to leading, which I doubt in his limited career, no reason to put any stock.

Erixon doesn't provide any real offense either, but his great defensive ability should be able to win this matchup. His selke record is very impressive- Selke voting 7th(1987), 3rd(1988), 9th(1989), 6th(1990), 8th(1991), and gives him a very large defensive advantage over a guy who's defense is unknown at htis point. Given Kuzin doesn't seem like anything offensively or in toughness, I think it's edge Erixon.

Brian Rolston vs Alexander Uvarov
Once again, you seem to have one member of a line that stands above the rest. Uvarov has some pretty good scoring finishes- 1950s Russia, but probably enough for an offensive edge on Rolston.

Uvarov, though has some nice quotes on his defensive and shutdown ability, does not have a defensive edge on Rolston in my mind- a regular selke consideration in the best league in the world- 10th(1999), 5th(2002), 10th(2003), 14th(2004), 10th(2006), 16th(2007).

It's rather dependant on how one views Russian league 1950s scoring, though I think it's fairly close either way.

Cecil Blanchford vs Yuri Krylov
I can't find anything, and nothing has been provided, on Krylov's intangibles. His career statistics seem the least impressive of the 3- but at any rate, no context or anything has been given on Kyrlov.

Blanchford, however, has 2 retro selke's to his credit- not real selke's, but enough to show he was good defensively and likely bests Kyrlov in that regard. He also won 5 stanley cups- more impressive team accomplishment than Kyrlov likely had. Though Blanchford was not a prolific scorer, he did finish 5th in league scoring once, and had some solid cup challenge series scoring a couple of times. Kyrlov is a mystery, but I feel Blanchford's evident defensive ability, and contribution to 5 cup winners is more than enough to give him an edge here.

And I feel our third line has an overall edge as well. The Royals third line does have a chemistry advantage, but the wings just aren't impressive at all to me. I don't see either line scoring much here- unless more stats are given for Kyrlov and/or Kuzin.

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07-20-2010, 02:27 PM
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Mickey Ion Quarterfinal Round


Toronto Marlies

coach Bun Cook

Al MacAdam (A) - Marc Savard - Stephane Richer
Red Hamill - Doc Romnes - Art Gagne
Jan Erixon - Brian Rolston - Cecil Blachford (C)
Carl Liscombe - Craig Conroy - Bobby Gould
Jack McIntyre, Bill Flett

Hy Buller - John Van Boxmeer
Gord Fraser - Mario Marois (A)
Warren Godfrey - Dale Tallon
Adrian Aucoin

Evgeni Nabokov
Earl Robertson


vs.


Cornwall Royals

coach Boris Kulagin

Sergei Kapustin - Viktor Zhluktov - Alexsei Morozov
Yevgeny Zimin - Viktor Shuvalov - Yuri Pantyukhov
Valentin Kuzin - Alexander Uvarov (C) - Yuri Krylov
Alexander Bodunov - Vyacheslav Anisin - Yuri Lebedev
Sergei Samsonov, Alexander Pashin

Yuri Fedorov - Vasili Pervukhin (A)
Dmitri Ukolov (A) - Alex Vinogradov
Alfred Kuchevsky - Genrikh Sidorenkov
Val Hoffinger

Nikolai Puchkov
Sergei Mylnikov


First Lines:
- Sergei Kapustin is the most explosive offensive player on either line, and he's probably the best goalscorer as well. Based on clips I've seen, he's actually quite physical as well.
- Stephane Richer is not as explosive or dynamic as Kapustin. He not quite as good as scoring either, but it is close, and his solid defesive play helps make him a reliable comtributor.
- Marc Savard is the most efficient offensive player, and he's by far the best playmaker.
- Sergei Zluktov is not a great offensive threat, and there's nothing to support claims of his physical style. He'd be an alright second line guy if surrounded by small, skilled wingers.
- Al MacAdam is the perfect glue guy to play with Savard and Richer. He brings grit, determination, toughness along the baords, ad an aggressive style to go along with a modest skill set that means he won't be out of place on a first line.
- Aleksey Moroov has no business on a first line. He brings nothing but offense, and he doesn't even do that very well.

- Overall, I'm not sure Cronwall's line has all the required components to be a completely effective line. Kapustin gives them an elite goalscorer, and while I think he's dynamic enough that he doesn't absolutely need a set-up man, he'd be better off with somebody to dish him the puck. Kapustin, based on his Soviet League numbers is also the line's best playmaker, which does't say much becuase he's not great in that area. Also, Kapustin may have to do all the dirty work, since Morozov definately won't and we're not sure about Zluktov. Morozov really hurts this line because he brings nothig to the table.

- The Marlies, on the other hand, have every component filled and filled well. Savard is one of the best playmakers in the draft - and he might just be the best. Richer is a strong scorer who comes through in the clutch and also provides a little bit of 2-way play. MacAdam brings puck-winning, toughness, grit, character, and defensive play. Not only are all the bases covered here, there are no weak links.

Second Lines:
- Victor Shuvalov is a very well-rounded player. He brings good offensive production, strong defesive play, and a team-first playing style. Depending on how strong you think the Soviet League it he 1950s was, he might be the best player bewteen these lines.
- Doc Romnes, I think, is similar to Shuvalov. He's a very strong playmaker and good defensive player. He is also a very good play-off performer.
- Red Hamill is very clearly the best goalscorer on these lines. In addition to goals, he brings a massive, Wendel Clark-type physcal presence.
-Yevgeny Zimin had incredible speed. His offensive numbers are solid, but not overly impressive. He was a very selfish player who did not play well in a team system.
- Art Gagne brings decent goalscoreing and playmaking to the line as well as a nice dose of grit.
- Yuri Pantyukhov is a complete mystery to me. He appears to be a decent, but unspectacular player in the 1950s, which probably means he doesn't belong here.

- Overall, Cornwall, again, has some good individual talent, but chemisty and weak links will hurt them. Shuvalov is the key to this line - big time! If there is a center who can handle playing with the selfish and indivualistic Zimin, it's Shuvalov - if he could put up with Bobrov, he can handle anybody! Yuri Pantyukhov, in my opinio, brings nothing to the table here. Who is going to do the corner work on this line?

- The Marlies, again, have a strong balance. Romnes provides good playmaking and defensive play. Hamill brings elite goalscoring and big-time physical play. Gagne brings a little bit of everything to suppliment what's already covered. Hamill is weaker in the play-offs, but Romnes is stronger, so that, I think, should balance out pretty evenly. Also, there are no weak links here - all 3 guys could survive on a 1st line if they needed to.

Third Lines:
- Alexander Uvarov was a strong skater, and seems like a very cerebral player. He used his intelligence to set up linemtes and play solid defense. Like Shuvalov, he played during Russian hockey's infancy, so how good was he compared to the best in the world?
- Brian Rolston also relies on his skating and intelligent 2-way play. There is much more evidence to support Rolston's accomplishments.
- I couldn't find much information on Krylov or Kuzin other than they were Uvarov's real linemates. Asside from chemisrty, I'm not sure they bring anything to the table. Only the very best Russias from the 50s cn be considered all-time players, and these guys are basically unknowns.
- Cecil Blachford was a very solid 2-way player who was extremely well-respected around the league. He captained multiple stanley cup champions and was awarded 2 retro Selke in Ultimate Hockey
- Jan Erixon has an imporessive Selke voting record, especialluu for somebody who provided no offense.

- Overall, Cornwall's line, it appears, will be carried by Uvarov, who is far from a known commodity himself. Even if we give Uvarov the benefit of the doubt, which I think, based on some quotes, is fair, his linemates really drag him down.

- The Marlies have 3 solid contributors who should combine to form a very effective 2-way line. Each of the members bring a solid defensive game, and Rolston and Blachford will be able to bring a little bit of bite on the counter-attack.

Fourth Lines:
- Carl Liscombe is a solid offensive contributor, and likely has the best play-off resume in the entire draft. While he isn't particularly multi-dimensional, he does bring an extra offensive punch in the play-offs. His 2 AHL MVPs are ice too...
- Alexader Bodunov seems to be a talented yet inconsistent player. Sometimes he was amazing, but other times he just blended in. The only thing consistent about him was his poor defensive play.
- Vyacheslav Anisin, like Bodunov, was a solid enough offensive player who struggled defesively.
- Craig Conroy has a very strong Selke voting record, and he also has modest offensive capabilities. He'll be able to provide some good 2-way play and solid face-off ability.
- Yuri Lebedev is by far the best member of the kid line. Not only was he better offensively, but he actually brought much more to the table. He was a hard-working, grinding type of player, and he'll make an excellent 4th liner.
- Bobby Gould is kind of a unspectacular grinder, but his solid selke record shows that he's pretty good defensively.

- Overall, Corwall again relies on one player to carry a line. Lebedev is a fantastic 4th liner, but his Kid Line linemates are kind of weak here. Chemisty should help, and there appears to be good balace and mix of talent.

- The Marlies also have a good balance here. Liscombe gives us a scoring punch that Cornwall lacks, and he can step up onto the powerplay if needed.



.....

Will finish this off later.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 07-20-2010 at 04:22 PM.
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07-21-2010, 02:07 AM
  #37
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First Lines:
- Sergei Zluktov is not a great offensive threat, and there's nothing to support claims of his physical style. He'd be an alright second line guy if surrounded by small, skilled wingers.
And that's exactly how it was; he wingers were e.g. Vikulov and B. Alexandrov and later - surprise surprise - KAPUSTIN and Balderis.

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- Overall, I'm not sure Cronwall's line has all the required components to be a completely effective line. Kapustin gives them an elite goalscorer, and while I think he's dynamic enough that he doesn't absolutely need a set-up man, he'd be better off with somebody to dish him the puck. Kapustin, based on his Soviet League numbers is also the line's best playmaker, which does't say much becuase he's not great in that area. Also, Kapustin may have to do all the dirty work, since Morozov definately won't and we're not sure about Zluktov. Morozov really hurts this line because he brings nothig to the table.
Well, I would give Zhluktov some credit for playmaking and maybe "dirty work" also, that was basically his job: to get the puck and pass it to his more talented/explosive linemates.


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07-21-2010, 03:18 AM
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And that's exactly how it was; he wingers were e.g. Vikulov and B. Alexandrov and later - surprise surprise - KAPUSTIN and Balderis.
My main point was that he'd be a better 2nd liner.

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Well, I would give Zhluktov some credit for playmaking and maybe "dirty work" also, that was basically his job: to get the puck and pass it to his more talented/explosive linemates.
He was a better playmaker than goalscorer, but his playmaking totals are not impressive at all. His assist finishes are 6th, 6th, and 9th, and never above 2/3s of the leader. Those results in the Soviet League are pretty piss-poor for a guy who's supposed to be the primary playmaker on a first line.

I'm still not sold on him being able to do the dirty work here. There is no anecdotal or statistica evidence supporting that ssumption. If you actually watching him play more than a handful of times, just explain his style, and we can use you as a semi-reliable (no offense ) source on the subject.

As of right now, we are stuck guessing. Sure he's big, but he also had very low PIM totals. Also, we have out assumptions of how lines should work, which include a puckwinner, a playmaker, and a scorer..... but maybe this line wasn't typical (and maybe that's why it wasn't always effective).

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07-21-2010, 03:41 AM
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My main point was that he'd be a better 2nd liner.
I dunno that he's even worthy of 2nd line duty in the MLD, honestly. (and I'm not being bias here) His scoring finishes really don't seem quite cut out for it, and his intangibles don't seem to be more than solid, if that.

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07-21-2010, 09:15 AM
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My main point was that he'd be a better 2nd liner.
I just thought it was 'funny' you would say that, since, in real life, that's what Zhluktov was (late-70s anyway) and played with smaller and more skilled wingers. Don't know enough about Shuvalov or Uvarov to make a comparison, but I guess it's safe to say that Zhluktov shouldn't be the 1st line center here, yeah?

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He was a better playmaker than goalscorer, but his playmaking totals are not impressive at all. His assist finishes are 6th, 6th, and 9th, and never above 2/3s of the leader. Those results in the Soviet League are pretty piss-poor for a guy who's supposed to be the primary playmaker on a first line.

I'm still not sold on him being able to do the dirty work here. There is no anecdotal or statistica evidence supporting that ssumption. If you actually watching him play more than a handful of times, just explain his style, and we can use you as a semi-reliable (no offense ) source on the subject.

As of right now, we are stuck guessing. Sure he's big, but he also had very low PIM totals. Also, we have out assumptions of how lines should work, which include a puckwinner, a playmaker, and a scorer..... but maybe this line wasn't typical (and maybe that's why it wasn't always effective). .
I have about 20 games with Zhluktov playing, BUT to be very honest, I've never really paid much if any attention to him, which maybe says it all. I just have an image of a reliable workhorse, who did not catch the eye either in a positive or negative sense... how's that for a vague description? (I happily withdraw from being a Zhluktov biographer!)
Still, you have to wonder, how such seemingly mediocre player managed to 'hang around' for so long on the national team and CSKA (10 seasons or so), if he wasn't even physical despite his big size; did Tikhonov have a soft spot for him (doubt it) for some reason or was there a serious lack of depth at center?


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07-21-2010, 01:13 PM
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I just thought it was 'funny' you would say that, since, in real life, that's what Zhluktov was (late-70s anyway) and played with smaller and more skilled wingers. Don't know enough about Shuvalov or Uvarov to make a comparison, but I guess it's safe to say that Zhluktov shouldn't be the 1st line center here, yeah?
Based on his offensive totals, as well as the fact that there is no evidence of his intangibles, I'd say he'd be best suited being a complimetary 2nd line player.


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I have about 20 games with Zhluktov playing, BUT to be very honest, I've never really paid much if any attention to him, which maybe says it all. I just have an image of a reliable workhorse, who did not catch the eye either in a positive or negative sense... how's that for a vague description? (I happily withdraw from being a Zhluktov biographer!)
Still, you have to wonder, how such seemingly mediocre player managed to 'hang around' for so long on the national team and CSKA (10 seasons or so), if he wasn't even physical despite his big size; did Tikhonov have a soft spot for him (doubt it) for some reason or was there a serious lack of depth at center?
I've seen some clips of that Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis line, and I too have never noticed Zhluktov

Based on the fact that he did stick around with the national team so long, I think he must have provided somethig other than mediocre offese. I wish we knew what that was - maybe he was a dominant face-off man, maybe a beast along the board, maybe a defensive genius, maybe he had embarrassing photos of Tikhanov.... I'd love to learn exacty what he did well!

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07-22-2010, 01:04 PM
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Well wanted to do more, but really have to try and wrap things up so:

Evgeni Nabakov vs Nikolai Puchkov
Puchkov was the Russian goalie for the 1950s. He was an 8 time soviet all-star, but who was his competition for that, really? Goaltending is a much more narrow position than forward, and I'd think he probably has even less competition for those all-star spots than the forwards do as a result.

He was also a one time IIHF all-star, in a non-best on best tournament I presume- well Nabakov can certainly at least match it by being named the best goalie in the 2008 world championships.

Puckhov's All-star's are nice, but they came in too weak a league, in my mind, to be better than Nabakov's outsanding Vezina record-
Vezina 4th(2001), 4th(2002), 6th(2004), 2nd(2008), 5th(2009), 4th(2010).

As for Nabakov's playoffs, Dreak says it best:
Quote:
His play-offs, asside from a few goofs, have not been bad at all. Despite facing more shots per game in the play-offs, his GAA goes down and his SV% goes up. Perhaps he is bad in elimination games - I haven't looked into that enough - but his overall play-off performance is decent as well.

His game against Canada in the Olympics? As I said before, when he has a bad day, it's really bad!

He does have a World Championship Gold Medal, and, in that tournament, he was named the best goalie.
And Puchkov isn't exactly a clutch "playoff" star to my knowledge. There weren't any playoffs in 1950s Russia, or that was my impression, and it wasn't hard win those Russian teams.

Puchkov's likely the best goalie of 1950's Russia, but I really don't think that's saying much. Edge Nabakov.

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07-22-2010, 01:44 PM
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Defense core comparison:

Top pairings- Yuri Fedorov - Vasili Pervukhin vs Hy Buller- Jon Van Boxmeer

Vasili Pervukhin seems to have been a pretty good blueliner, and he is from the golden age of soviet hockey. Some nice team and individual awards. Is that better than Hy Buller's 1st an 3rd in NHL defenceman scoring, 2nd team NHL all-star, and elite AHL level play?

I'll presume VanIslander is correct in this quote about Federov:

Quote:
He only played 38 games with the national team with 4 goals, has no individual awards and few team accomplishments relative to others.
Now, that may well because he decided to play for a lesser team, but then we don't give credits to guys who could have played in higher level leagues but chose lesser for various reasons, do we?

The childovski quote, I admit, is very nice however. And Van Boxmeer, though has 4 top-12 in defencemen points (including 4th, 5th) and a pretty good playoff record, isn't exactly the best top pairing defencemen around himself.

Your top pairing probably does have a bit of an edge on ours. Depending on one's perspective of Federov, however, such an edge isn't large.

Second Pairings- Ukolov-Vinogradov vs Fraser-Marois

The mystery pairing. Nothing provided on Ukolov or Vinogradov- no quotes support intangibles, apparently not much in the way of AST's, both 1950s defencemen if not mistaken. Seem really unimpressive if something isn't provided.

Fraser, on the other hand, was a rugged and physical defender, a PCHA first and 2nd team AST as well as a WHL second team AST, and a pretty good star in the PCHA. Marois is another rugged defender, with some decent offensive skill, and 2 times top tend in norris voting (granted, one of those came with one vote). These facts should be more than enough to gve our second pairing a fair edge on your mystery second pairing.

Third Pairings- Kuchevsky-Sidorenkov vs Warren Godfrey-Dale Tallon

We know a bit more on this pairing, and both were apparently 3 times AST's in in the late 1950s, early 60s. Of course, nothing again provided on their intangibles, which is kind of a concern with no proven defensive play or toughness from your bottom-4.

Godfrey is a classic stay at home blueliner with a solid offensive touch- tough, great defensively,and even a couple of 10th's in points amongst defencemen. He lacks personal accomplishment (though a all-star game participant in 1955, for what it's worth- and not because he won the cup).

Tallon was a fine offensive defenceman with a 3rd, 5th, and 7th in points amongst defencemen. I don't think our pairings are really far off given we don't know much about your pairing other than AST's, they were probably the best of the 1950s Russia, and some good team accomplishments.

Overall: Do to perhaps some edges on the 1st and 3rd pairings, their dcore may be a bit better (though quite debatable) their 2nd pairing is a complete mystery however, and their is nothing to suggest at the moment that any of their bottom-4 defencemen provide intangibles, a big concern that could see their defense core being lit up.

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07-22-2010, 01:59 PM
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I don't think this was posted- our special teams:

Power Play #1: Red Hamill-Marc Savard-Carl Liscombe-John Van Boxmeer-Stephane Richer/Brian Rolston
Power Play # 2: Al MacAdam-Doc Romnes-Art Gagne-Hy Buller-Dale Tallon

Penalty Kill #1: Brian Rolston-Cecil Blachford-Gord Fraser-Mario Marois
Penalty Kill #2: Jan Erixon-Craig Conroy-Warren Godfrey-Hy Buller

Guys I'm not going to go int oa lot of detai lover but should mention:

-Car Liscombe has his place on a powerplay with a2nd and a 10th in goals. (granted, in 1944 and 1945, respectively), as wel las 4th in points in 1944. His playoff record is fantastic as well, with a 1st, 3rd, and 4th in playoff points in the 1940s.

-Conry is certainly deserving of a PKing spot with a 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in selke voting, and lesser selke consideration in many other years.

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07-22-2010, 02:00 PM
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Closing:

Our lineup matches will probably see their top line get time going head to head with ours as well as time against our third line. This is to have either Richer of Blanchford on their bigget threat (kasputin).

Our top line, the rest of their time, will go up aainst their 2nd line when we can. Neither of their top-2 c's seems more than solid defensively, and their top-6 wingers don't have any defensive play to speak of, or at least none shown.

The Cornwall Royals were a wonderful theme team that taugh us all a lot about a number of lesser soviets. But, though it taugh us about some guys that probably deserve to stay in the MLD, I'd argue it taught us more about guys who shouldn't be coming back, unless a lot more information is found.

Their are simply too many question marks in this team, as well as a heavy reliance on 1950s Russia, a rather weak league. Intangibles are rather unknown or lacking all throughout the lineup with a couple of exceptions. Offense two, is lacking.

As I think we've shown, their top-6 forwards simply don't compare, with 4 players who seem very questionable, while all 6 of our players has a specific role and can contribute quite well.

Our shutdown line seems better as well, with a lack of intangibles on theirs outside of their centre, who seems rather good.

Their defense is more comparable, but the lack of intangibles in the bottom-4 is really a gaping hole for me that could see it getting lighten up. Our defensive core is well rounded with defensive play, toughness, and offense presnet on all 3 pairings.

And I feel we have a gotlending edge, despite Nabakov's supposed question marks in the playoffs.

I just don't think the Royals compare in too many spotsand a too questionable to overcome our well-balanced team. The Toronto Marlies deserve to win this series.

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07-23-2010, 02:07 PM
  #46
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Toronto Marlies defeat Cornwall Royals in 5 games.

1st Star - Marc Savard
2nd Star - Vasili Pervukhin
3rd Star - Stephane Richer

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07-23-2010, 04:01 PM
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Yay!

Royals were a great theme team- well done teaching us all.

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