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Salary disparity - will it inevitably lead to disunity?

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Old
07-22-2010, 10:46 AM
  #26
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Happiness is largely dictated by one's status within one's group of acquaintances. If you're the poorest guy among your group of friends you are sure to be unhappy. This spectrum exists among the elite as well as the poor. So resentment is one of the big problems in the world today and nobody really ever discusses it but I think that it's a large unspoken part of sport. When a guy is sitting on the bench seeing a better-paid colleague not doing much, he surely thinks that he's not getting a fair deal. We pretend this doesn't exist but it surely does. I don't think harmony is necessary for a successful hockey club but I think someone should do a study on this. I bet that teams with underperforming high-salaried players do a lot more poorly than a team like Phoenix where nobody is making big money.
Wow. What age are you? Your vision of happiness is superficial and irrealistic. Are you happy? I wonder this, because you don't seem to understand how happiness works, or rather, you base happiness on your own set of values, a set of values that are unrelated to what makes most people happy.

My Dad always had more money than my Mother, they've been divorced since I was 1 year old. But my Mom has always been the happiest.

Your formula for hapiness is tainted with materialism and a lack of spirituality. Getting more money doesn't create happiness. If it does, it is only temporarily and of very short term. The most happy people I've met in my life weren't rich, and the rich people I've met weren't necessarily happy.

The appetite that drives people to get money is greed. Intense greed is a mental disorder, where someone always wants more money, and doesn't become happy unless he gets more, but only temporarily, he then has to get more, and more, and ends-up always unhappy of not having enough. The richest people on the planet (the real ones, not the Forbes list) are extremely greedy, and from hearing direct stories of them and their life, I can tell you that their children are unhappy and often commit suicide, the parents are unhappy and driven by materialism.

That's the biggest problem in our society. People running around with a mental disorder called greed. It is central to everything that is happening on this planet. Greedy people are among the least happy people.

You seriously need to start doing some introspection, because you don't have a clue how true happiness is attained.

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07-22-2010, 11:18 AM
  #27
Kensai Akatsume Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Wow. What age are you? Your vision of happiness is superficial and irrealistic. Are you happy? I wonder this, because you don't seem to understand how happiness works, or rather, you base happiness on your own set of values, a set of values that are unrelated to what makes most people happy.

My Dad always had more money than my Mother, they've been divorced since I was 1 year old. But my Mom has always been the happiest.

Your formula for hapiness is tainted with materialism and a lack of spirituality. Getting more money doesn't create happiness. If it does, it is only temporarily and of very short term. The most happy people I've met in my life weren't rich, and the rich people I've met weren't necessarily happy.

The appetite that drives people to get money is greed. Intense greed is a mental disorder, where someone always wants more money, and doesn't become happy unless he gets more, but only temporarily, he then has to get more, and more, and ends-up always unhappy of not having enough. The richest people on the planet (the real ones, not the Forbes list) are extremely greedy, and from hearing direct stories of them and their life, I can tell you that their children are unhappy and often commit suicide, the parents are unhappy and driven by materialism.

That's the biggest problem in our society. People running around with a mental disorder called greed. It is central to everything that is happening on this planet. Greedy people are among the least happy people.

You seriously need to start doing some introspection, because you don't have a clue how true happiness is attained.
Indeed. I wish him to have good social support if his situation does happen to change someday... this kind of beliefs is a recipe for this mental disaster True happiness is obtained through perseverance, tolerance, wisdom, patience and many more values from the inner-self. The environment, however tempting it might be, is not responsible for our state of mind: our cognitive pattern (our reactions) are.

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Old
07-22-2010, 11:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HarlemsFinest View Post
lol, i'd play a sport for 65k a year.
I wouldn't. It's really not a lot of money considering how hard it would have been to get good enough to begin with, and also considering how short a typical pro sport career is. There's no point in earning 65K for a few years and then, just as you get older and want to settle down, having to quit it for crappy 30K jobs for the rest of your live because you didn't get an education. And retiring from hockey at the exact moment all your friends will be starting the peak of their professional career.

Not cool.

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07-22-2010, 11:33 AM
  #29
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Oh, the component of resentment feeding unhappiness is not something I invented or endorse, it's just the result of scientific studies. I do not feel resentment towards my friends, many of whom make a ton more money than myself but maybe I'm fooling myself.

The study of happiness has revealed a lot of counterintuitive information, for example Dan Gilbert's Stumbling Over Happiness reveals a lot of rather incredible stuff. For example within a year someone who becomes a paraplegic does not feel any less happy than a person who makes a big amount of money. This is explained here. Gilbert says that the brain has a tool which simulates happiness and it's just as good as real happiness.

Another bizarre finding is that people who have children are considerably unhappier than those who do not have children. So perhaps the way we study happiness is not really quite right because obviously people are motivated to have children for profound personal reasons that cannot be charted by these studies.

I can't immediately find a link to the resentment component and its deleterious effect on one's happiness but I'll post it here when I find it.

I think we all imagine that it would be great fun to play hockey professionally but in fact a lot of these guys could be pretty miserable, I figure some players like Richer, Kordic, Charbonneau, Roy, Fogarty all strike me as having had deep periods of unhappiness and in some cases their careers ended prematurely as a result. Making these guys happier could have provided some positive results.

And moderators, please remove any ad hominen attacks on this thread, thanks.

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07-22-2010, 11:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Anybody in the workplace knows the resentment people have knowing that a colleague of supposedly equal stature earns more money than them.

I was taken aback recently to learn that Hamilton's goaltender signed a contract to play for $65,000 a season. Cedric Desjardins makes less in one game than Scott Gomez makes in an entire season. I know that they are not equals but seeing a guy make $8 million compared to another guy in the same picture making $65,000, that's a bit of a shocker.

There is some sorta basic economic rule at play here which I have never seen named, but surely someone else has thought of it. If your garage band is half as good as the Rolling Stones it doesn't mean you'll earn half as much money. If you're one tenth as funny as Steve Martin you won't be earning one tenth of what he earns. So compensation has a zero sum element to it, I am aware of that.

But seeing Desjardins earn less than what a plumber makes while in the minors is just a recipe for disaster. And with the way teams are made with a few elite high paid players taking most of the salaries and the rest of the cap being divvied among the rest of the scrubs, you'll see a constant festering of team disunity.

I think that could upset a lot of chemistry in the league, or perhaps chemistry doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if the guys on the bench hate each other.

What do you think?

Every sports contract should be based on performance!!!

I think every player should get a base salary of $1 million dollars to play in the NHL.....then depending on how they perform over the season, goals, assists, games played, +/-, and also how much of a team player they are judged by the coach determines how much more money they will make that season.

If Gomez scored the most points on the Habs, and was a great team leader, then he would get bonuses accordingly. If Price bombs and plays terrible hockey all season and has a winning percentage below .500, he doesn't get a bonus.

Paying players based on their performance on the ice should be the way to go. If you get injured and miss 50 games, then you don't get big money.

The whole dishing out millions of dollars to a player and then watching them struggle and go through the motions for the rest of their contracts is very frusterating. Jose Theodore got a big contract after his 1 good season and then sucked until the Habs traded him away. He didn't deserve the big contract based on 1 good season. Contracts should be paid at the end of the season based on performance. You want to make big money, then you gotta work for it and earn it. They need to stop handing the money out first.

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Old
07-22-2010, 12:45 PM
  #31
Megaforce
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Well Gomez could break his leg in training camp, miss the entire season and still get his $8 million a year.

Desjardins could turn into the phenmonal superstar of the nets, and play 60 games, earn 15 shutouts and still earn just 1/16 th of what Gomez makes for doing nothing.

So yeah it's a merit-based payment system but it's not really as foolproof as it should be.

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07-22-2010, 12:58 PM
  #32
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we're forgetting that Desjardins is paying Ontario taxes on the 65K and Gomez is paying Quebec taxes on the 8 Million ... so if anything, Gomez is jealous of Desjardins

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07-22-2010, 01:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Anybody in the workplace knows the resentment people have knowing that a colleague of supposedly equal stature earns more money than them.

I was taken aback recently to learn that Hamilton's goaltender signed a contract to play for $65,000 a season. Cedric Desjardins makes less in one game than Scott Gomez makes in an entire season. I know that they are not equals but seeing a guy make $8 million compared to another guy in the same picture making $65,000, that's a bit of a shocker.

There is some sorta basic economic rule at play here which I have never seen named, but surely someone else has thought of it. If your garage band is half as good as the Rolling Stones it doesn't mean you'll earn half as much money. If you're one tenth as funny as Steve Martin you won't be earning one tenth of what he earns. So compensation has a zero sum element to it, I am aware of that.

But seeing Desjardins earn less than what a plumber makes while in the minors is just a recipe for disaster. And with the way teams are made with a few elite high paid players taking most of the salaries and the rest of the cap being divvied among the rest of the scrubs, you'll see a constant festering of team disunity.

I think that could upset a lot of chemistry in the league, or perhaps chemistry doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if the guys on the bench hate each other.

What do you think?
Nonsense!

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07-22-2010, 01:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
Well you can't look at it from a hockey perspective, look at it from a real world perspective. The league minimum is $500 000 US. By any standards that's more money than a person needs, and you can still live in a mansion and drive 3 exotic cars, etc. So really, unless you're looking for an ego boost or something, I doubt Scott Gomez actually spends all of his 8 million dollars, and his lifestyle is probably pretty similar to Lapierre and Pyatt who by their own right, are stinking rich young kids.
Depends where you live. Here in Vancouver, 1.5 million can get you a crack shack. http://www.crackshackormansion.com/

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07-22-2010, 01:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Well Gomez could break his leg in training camp, miss the entire season and still get his $8 million a year.

Desjardins could turn into the phenmonal superstar of the nets, and play 60 games, earn 15 shutouts and still earn just 1/16 th of what Gomez makes for doing nothing.

So yeah it's a merit-based payment system but it's not really as foolproof as it should be.
Then Desjardins will get a raise after, whats your point?

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07-22-2010, 05:38 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
we're forgetting that Desjardins is paying Ontario taxes on the 65K and Gomez is paying Quebec taxes on the 8 Million ... so if anything, Gomez is jealous of Desjardins
I heard an accountant explaining that this is a myth, that if you're in Canada as an NHL player you'll end up paying the same amount of tax wherever you are, I can't remember the explanation though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QcnARF View Post
Nonsense!
Gomez plays 100 or so games a year including playoff and pre season games. That comes out to $80,000 plus per game, as 8 million divided by 100.

Desjardins' two-way contract dictates that he'll earn $65,000 a year in the minors.

To put that into perspective, a large part of the world's population lives on less than one dollar a day, so Gomez, in one year could feed 8 million people for a day, that's powerful, but I doubt he'll do that. He'll probably buy a bunch of cars and a big house instead.

Gomez earns more by jumping over the boards occasionally for about 40 seconds a shot over a half hour than your average hard working Joe Sixpack makes in an entire year. I guess you guys pouring your money into hockey tickets and jersey are what pay this stuff so it's not for me to complain.

Desjardins, on the other hand, probably should have held out for more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Then Desjardins will get a raise after, whats your point?
My point is that you're not paid for what you do, you're paid for what they imagine you might do. As a result most players are either overpaid or underpaid, there's no real precision in the pay formula and that can only result in disaster.

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07-23-2010, 05:36 PM
  #37
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While that salary is pretty low, I don't think it creates disunity. The NHLPA is all about getting max money for the players, but within the PA, it's like capitalism or rather the idea that the sky is the limit if you can achieve it.

The fact that Gomez gets that much (something I personally am very much over) means that if you are a young player, you can hope to one day make that much money if you do the right things. Look at Gomez. Calder trophy, 2 Stanley Cups, tons of experience, great leader (dunno how people debate that, he's got more personality than anyone on the team), etc. Same with the other highly paid players. They are paid that much because they achieved something. You can see it in the stats behind a players year before going UFA. They play extra hard most of the time.

I think Desjardins knows full well that if he puts his head down and plays hard in the minors (which is exactly the time for that, not for making tons of cash and balling), it will pay off. I like to see those kind of paths. Also FTR, Gomez is known to pay for a lot of the team meals for what it's worth. Don't hate the...player, literally, hate the...agent?

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07-23-2010, 06:36 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
My point is that you're not paid for what you do, you're paid for what they imagine you might do. As a result most players are either overpaid or underpaid, there's no real precision in the pay formula and that can only result in disaster.
At work, some guy gets paid more than you, but you work harder and are more efficient, **** happens.

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07-23-2010, 06:47 PM
  #39
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How do you guys not see this yet? This is another attempt to thinly cover a scott gomez is getting paid too much complaint.

Mike Cammalleri in one game gets paid more than Desjardin in one year as well. Where is his complaint there? Yet he picks on only Gomez.

He did this in the Hamilton Bulldogs thread and lead to his posts getting deleted.

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07-23-2010, 07:35 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
Cedric Desjardins makes less in one game than Scott Gomez makes in an entire season.


...Obviously?

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07-23-2010, 09:08 PM
  #41
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I like Gomez. I just don't like the salary gap between him and his equals.

If, for example, one of the big guns goes down with injury and someone like Pouliot has an unexpectedly brilliant season, the resentment won't be far under the surface.

Nobody has addressed my other point. I would argue that many Canadiens have seen their performances diminished due to unhappiness, or perhaps mental illness.

These possibly include Kordic, Fogarty, Richer, Roy, Jose Charbonneau, Lafleur, Niiniima and Worsley (err kidding about that last one).

The teams should make an effort to bring guys like this peace of mind. The salary madness doesn't help at all.

(Price = Dryden, Halak = Vachon).

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07-23-2010, 09:46 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Megaforce View Post
I like Gomez. I just don't like the salary gap between him and his equals.

If, for example, one of the big guns goes down with injury and someone like Pouliot has an unexpectedly brilliant season, the resentment won't be far under the surface.

Nobody has addressed my other point. I would argue that many Canadiens have seen their performances diminished due to unhappiness, or perhaps mental illness.

These possibly include Kordic, Fogarty, Richer, Roy, Jose Charbonneau, Lafleur, Niiniima and Worsley (err kidding about that last one).

The teams should make an effort to bring guys like this peace of mind. The salary madness doesn't help at all.

(Price = Dryden, Halak = Vachon).
Well lets put it this way then. Gomez is played to put up points, play well defensively and create speed through the neutral zone, but mostly for points. When he doesn't do it but plays well defensively, he gets hated on by most fans, media and is in the coaches doghouse.

Tom Pyatt is paid to play well defensively. When he doesn't put up points, no one cares.

No one addressed your point because it's not really a point. You can't PROVE it but you can certainly argue it. But these people are professionals, if they get unhappy with their pay, they should either play better and get the big contract or be more professional. Plus, they negotiated and AGREED to the deal. It's not like we're forcing them to take the level of pay. I think you're making this to be a bigger issue than it is.

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07-23-2010, 10:20 PM
  #43
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This thread may just be a ad hominem attack on Scott Gomez!

Look, you need to give your head a shake, no is forcing Dejardins to play hockey, period. Gomez gets what he gets, Cammy gets his and Gionta gets his. No problem. From a psychological stand point you may have some issues to deal with at work.

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07-24-2010, 07:56 PM
  #44
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I've been reading the Theo Fleury autobiography. He excelled in spite of his demons. Perhaps mental turmoil, sexual abuse, drug abuse, manic depression and all of those other things can be kept separate from one's hockey performance. Perhaps they can even fuel excellence. Eventually he melted down obviously but not until he enjoyed a heck of a career.

The way these things work, prodding a player to motivation without actually breaking him, that would be an interesting course of study. Fleury gives a short description of Mike Keenan's technique and how he'd pick on certain players for whatever reason, calling them '****' and accusing them of ridiculous stuff.

Some of the mental breakdowns of the various Montreal Canadiens have been quite public, as I have mentioned, but I'd bet there were a ton more that we never heard about. Tanguay, Czerkowski, Randy Mackay a lot of those guys were massive disappointments and as Fleury says, the game is 95 percent mental, these guys might've benefited from some psychological attention. I bet in 10 years you'll see that dimension of coaching and training far more advanced than it is now.

I bet that the salary disparity within a group could be a contributing factor.

And moderators, you seem very keen on erasing my posts when they were perfectly legit but you have been letting a lot of lame-azz ad hominen attacks go on in this thread, how about getting in into gear please.

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Old
07-25-2010, 12:02 AM
  #45
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A plumber is a highly qualified position and quite important. Hey what it comes down to is you have to pay your dues.

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07-25-2010, 01:35 AM
  #46
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I wouldn't. It's really not a lot of money considering how hard it would have been to get good enough to begin with, and also considering how short a typical pro sport career is. There's no point in earning 65K for a few years and then, just as you get older and want to settle down, having to quit it for crappy 30K jobs for the rest of your live because you didn't get an education. And retiring from hockey at the exact moment all your friends will be starting the peak of their professional career.

Not cool.
Who said you have to quit? There is overseas options and even some guys in AHL get over 200K a year.

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