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Why the habs keep drafting from USHL?

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Old
07-24-2010, 06:50 PM
  #1
LastChancePrice
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Why the habs keep drafting from USHL?

By looking at hockeydb and looking at the past draft for last ten years, iv realised that USHL havent develop any superstars in the NHL, and i keep wondering why the Habs continue to follow this way by drafting players from the USHL.

I , (yes lose about an hour), made a presentation for all USHL players that were draft per year.Iv wrote down the number of player that were draft in round 1 and round 2, and made an overall for draft 3 to 7 ( 9 for years 2005 and lower ). Starting in 2005, iv listed the number of players that were drafted in round 3-9 from OHL, WHL and europe that were considered a surprise, let say played 200 game an over . And on every year, iv list the top players of the USHL that were at least, nhl ready, able to play 40 games.

2010 DRAFT

ROUND 1:

- USHL 4 ( 1 by habs )

Round 2:

- USHL 5

Round 3 and over:

- USHL 11 ( 9 in last three rounds )

2009 DRAFT

ROUND 1:

- USHL 2 ( 1 by habs )

round 2:

- USHL 2

round 3 and up

- USHL 12 (1 by habs, 4 draft last round )

2008 DRAFT

ROUND 1:

- USHL 1 ( 27TH )

Round 2:

- USHL 2

Round 3 and up

- USHL 7 ( 1 by habds )

no nhl player yet.

2007 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 3 ( 1 by habs )

Round 2:

- USHL 2

Round 3 and up:

- USHL 16 ( 9 drafted round 4 and 5, 1 by habs )

no nhl player yet

2006 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 2 ( 1 nhl good player Oksopo )

Round 2:

- USHL 2

Round 3 and up:

- USHL 5




2005 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 2

Round 2:

- USHL 1

Round 3 and up:

- USHL 11 ( 2 nhl ready Chris Butler and Jared Boll )





2004 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 2 ( 1 nhl good player, Goligoski )

Round 2:

- USHL 1

Round 3:

-USHL 9 ( 6 in last 3 round )

OHL, WHL surprises ( round 3 and up ) 3
Euro surprises ( Round 3 and up ) 3


2003 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 0

Round 2:

- USHL 2 ( Matt Carle, David Backes ,nhl good player)

Round 3 and up ( 9 ROUNDS )

- USHL 12 ( 1 NHL good player Joe Pavelski, 7th rounder)

OHL, WHL surprises ( round 3 and up ) 6
Euro surprises ( Round 3 and up ) 2

2002 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 0

Round 2:

- USHL 1 ( 1 nhl ready,Matt Greene )

Round 3 and up: ( 9 ROUNDS )

- USHL 14 ( 1 Nhl ready, Tom Glbert )

OHL, WHL surprises ( round 3 and up ) 6
Euro surprises ( Round 3 and up ) 2


2001 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 0

Round 2:

- USHL 0

Round 3 and up ( 9 rounds )

- USHL 11 ( 2 nhl ready player David Moss and Andrew Alberts)

OHL, WHL surprises ( round 3 and up ) 4
Euro surprises ( Round 3 and up ) 8


2000 DRAFT

Round 1:

- USHL 1

Round 2:

- USHL 1 ( 1 nhl ready, Dan Ellis )

Round 3 and up, 9 rounds:

- USHL 14

OHL, WHL surprises ( round 3 and up ) 5
Euro surprises ( Round 3 and up ) 3

My conclusion about this is simple. Why the Habs keep trying to draft high on USHL players? There is also seem to be an increase this season with the draft, but we can all say that it was not one of the best draft, past for sure the Tyler Twins. Past have showned that majority of the USHL were draft in late rounders, and very few made it to the NHL in a regular basic. Why do the Habs instead dont try to get players of OHL and WHL who got way more chance of being NHL players?

I just dont understand the way the organisation is going by keeping of drafting high on USHL, when in the past it show that majority of the time, these player were draft in late rounders. I am not saying that Pac, Leblanc and Tinordi will be busts, but with the few player that seem to be real NHL players from USHL , well all these players are not superstars, while some teams draft players from OHL, WHA, NCAA,Europe and even LHJMQ and get way more lucky by getting at least an NHL caliber player.

Please someone explain me why we keep drafting from USHL, because i dont get it.

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07-24-2010, 07:10 PM
  #2
RE-HABS
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Some notable alumni from the USHL who were or are good NHLers:

Phil Housley, Gary Suter, Eric Cole, Joe Corvo, Ryan Malone, Dan Ellis, Rostislav Klesla, Patrick Sharp, David Moss, Adam Burish, Tom Gilbert, Matt Greene, Keith Ballard, Thomas Vanek, Matt Carle, David Backes, Joe Pavelski, Alex Goligoski, Blake Wheeler, T.J. Oshie, Paul Stastny, Jared Boll, Justin Abdelkader, Brian Lee, Kyle Okposo, Max Pacioretty, John Carlson, Louis Leblanc.

Players bolded are all top 6 forwards or top 2 pairing Dmen, so the league isn't exactly a waste land. It is a stepping stone to the NCAA, a step lower than the CHL, but probably a step higher than that of the Canadian Tier 2 leagues.

Star players are usually a top 3 pick, or a lucky pick pay of big time and they mostly come from the OHL or Europe now, next would be WHL and then the NCAA and the Q. These USHL players all pretty much become NCAA players, few exceptions go to the CHL.

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07-24-2010, 07:37 PM
  #3
badfish
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I don't know but to me our most exciting prospects over the last few years have been OHL and WHL players (Subban and Price) and there haven't really been any first rounders from the OHL or the QMJHL in the last ten years that I can remember. I don't want to say the Canadiens should just pick a player from the CHL for the sake of picking a player from the CHL, but I still feel that it's weird most of the Canadiens CHL picks from 2nd round or later. Not only that but especially the OHL has been a hot bed for talent for a while lately. I find USHL/NCAA players are good for the strong, gritty, two way game with leadership in most cases. But a whole team cannot be in that mold.

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07-24-2010, 07:38 PM
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Player 61
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They have more scouting in that area because it's producing a lot of good hockey players, they have great programs..

Simple, the Q is not developing as well and it's 3rd in the CHL for development, even the goalies are dropping off. What's the answer, you tell me?

NHL Hockey is not a provincial League(It's Montreal...NHL) & has to find the best players in the world.

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07-24-2010, 07:39 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsprospects View Post
For the love of god, Habs, stop drafting Americans kids, stop drafting Russians, actually, stop drafting any Europeans, oh and screw that, stop drafting freaking West guys and those damn Ontarians and just draft our Québec boys for all 7 rounds,

thanks Habs!!!
I've learned in life, that no matter what you do in life, you just can't please everyone at the same time. There's always going to be that group that complains about it. And if the organization ever drafted Quebec born players only, there'd be a group that complained about it.

Out of all the 30 organization's fan bases, and I've visited all their boards just to see how the mood is, this organization has the fans that complain the most. By far.

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07-24-2010, 07:40 PM
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Trevor Timmins


Last edited by Fel 96: 07-24-2010 at 08:09 PM. Reason: didn't know if I should keep the sarcasm icon or not
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07-24-2010, 07:49 PM
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montreal
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The USHL is getting stronger as a league now that the USNDTP has joined the league. The USNDTP gets most of the top talent in the USA under the age of 17-18 for the most part, and have been turning out quaility blueliners this decade. Having USHL players go up against some of the best players in the US should only help improve the league.

The fact that you can keep the rights of the players you draft out of the USHL for 4 or 5 years (depending on when they go to the NCAA) so it's also the longest you can keep someones rights (outside of Russians since they may never sign a PTA again)

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07-24-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
Please someone explain me why we keep drafting from USHL, because i dont get it.
'Cause Trevor Timmins said so.

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07-24-2010, 09:10 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
'Cause Trevor Timmins said so.
Exactly. Because the head scout seems to consider the USHL a source of underrated and/or underscouted talent. Agree or disagree, the fact that a scout has favors a particular league is neither here nor the there. The question is, how good is the USHL talent he's gotten? For a lot of them, it's just too soon to tell. No home runs yet, that's for sure.

Hell if Trotter's going to the K, we might as well start drafting Russians again.

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07-24-2010, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
'Cause Trevor Timmins said so.
If ya smelllllllalalalalalala-LA what the SNAKE... Is cookin!

*cue theme music, end thread*

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07-24-2010, 09:41 PM
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LastChancePrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
The USHL is getting stronger as a league now that the USNDTP has joined the league. The USNDTP gets most of the top talent in the USA under the age of 17-18 for the most part, and have been turning out quaility blueliners this decade. Having USHL players go up against some of the best players in the US should only help improve the league.

The fact that you can keep the rights of the players you draft out of the USHL for 4 or 5 years (depending on when they go to the NCAA) so it's also the longest you can keep someones rights (outside of Russians since they may never sign a PTA again)
Well it clear my head a little now if your saying that USHL player are getting stronger and better, because it was getting me worried a bit. I still feel that OHL and WHL players are better, imo. Look at the LHJMQ, nobody want to draft from them anymore, well not at a ratio there wre draft in the past, and seeing the USHL getting more picks was making me asking myself some questions.

Hope we can see our USHL develop well, i stilL have hope for Max Pac, and big hope for Tinordi and some for Leblanc. Maybe the next 2-3 years will make us happy..i hope.

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07-24-2010, 09:45 PM
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LastChancePrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Some notable alumni from the USHL who were or are good NHLers:

Phil Housley, Gary Suter, Eric Cole, Joe Corvo, Ryan Malone, Dan Ellis, Rostislav Klesla, Patrick Sharp, David Moss, Adam Burish, Tom Gilbert, Matt Greene, Keith Ballard, Thomas Vanek, Matt Carle, David Backes, Joe Pavelski, Alex Goligoski, Blake Wheeler, T.J. Oshie, Paul Stastny, Jared Boll, Justin Abdelkader, Brian Lee, Kyle Okposo, Max Pacioretty, John Carlson, Louis Leblanc.

Players bolded are all top 6 forwards or top 2 pairing Dmen, so the league isn't exactly a waste land. It is a stepping stone to the NCAA, a step lower than the CHL, but probably a step higher than that of the Canadian Tier 2 leagues.

Star players are usually a top 3 pick, or a lucky pick pay of big time and they mostly come from the OHL or Europe now, next would be WHL and then the NCAA and the Q. These USHL players all pretty much become NCAA players, few exceptions go to the CHL.
Thanks for clarifing me this, didnt know about that. Yes there ar pretty good players out of that list, but was worried to see very few USHL drafted players come to the NHL.

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07-24-2010, 10:09 PM
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I'd say because they have many of the best athletes.

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07-24-2010, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
Please someone explain me why we keep drafting from USHL, because i dont get it.
BPA

/thread

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07-24-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
2010 DRAFT

ROUND 1:

- USHL 4 ( 1 by habs )
We didn't take anyone from the USHL in the 1st round of 2010 draft. No, Tinordi didn't play in the USHL.

Thread should be closed on account of ignorance. Sorry but any self-proclaimed fan of the Habs should know where their most recent 1st rounder played.


Last edited by montreal: 07-25-2010 at 12:06 AM. Reason: no need to quote the entire thing
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07-24-2010, 10:33 PM
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LastChancePrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
We didn't take anyone from the USHL in the 1st round of 2010 draft. No, Tinordi didn't play in the USHL.

Thread should be closed on account of ignorance. Sorry but any self-proclaimed fan of the Habs should know where their most recent 1st rounder played.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=120972

Look like your the ignorant.

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07-24-2010, 10:34 PM
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Habsfan18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
We didn't take anyone from the USHL in the 1st round of 2010 draft. No, Tinordi didn't play in the USHL.

Thread should be closed on account of ignorance. Sorry but any self-proclaimed fan of the Habs should know where their most recent 1st rounder played.
Tinordi actually did play in the USHL. The USNTDP is now part of the league.

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07-24-2010, 10:41 PM
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LastChancePrice
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And its always fun too see people bashing other when some are asking question or clarification. Rather than giving explaination they just spit on comment or post your saying.

Oh wait, i should lower myself and propose thread of Ryder,Ribeiro and a 2nd for Sidney Crosby, thread would be more useful i would say.

Kudos to people who are able to have a discution, other who are slamming should have their account banned!

Mods, why are you accepting such trolling , slamming on the boards?

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07-24-2010, 10:52 PM
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Crimson Skorpion
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Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
And its always fun too see people bashing other when some are asking question or clarification. Rather than giving explaination they just spit on comment or post your saying.

Oh wait, i should lower myself and propose thread of Ryder,Ribeiro and a 2nd for Sidney Crosby, thread would be more useful i would say.

Kudos to people who are able to have a discution, other who are slamming should have their account banned!

Mods, why are you accepting such trolling , slamming on the boards?
Because posting facts is not necessarily trolling.

Fact is, there are many players now coming of out of the USHL the past few years so that will automatically gain the league some major attention. Trevor Timmins' attention was obviously grabbed, so now he does some major scouting there.

It's not rocket science really. If you don't like this move at all and hate Timmins idea of scouting the USHL so much, jump on the "GET TIMMINS OUT OF HERE!" bandwagon.

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07-24-2010, 11:39 PM
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OneSharpMarble
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Whats the big deal? Timmons hasn't drafted ANY 1st line talent since he has been here. Does it really matter which league he picks his junk from?

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07-25-2010, 12:05 PM
  #21
montreal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
Well it clear my head a little now if your saying that USHL player are getting stronger and better, because it was getting me worried a bit. I still feel that OHL and WHL players are better, imo. Look at the LHJMQ, nobody want to draft from them anymore, well not at a ratio there wre draft in the past, and seeing the USHL getting more picks was making me asking myself some questions.

Hope we can see our USHL develop well, i stilL have hope for Max Pac, and big hope for Tinordi and some for Leblanc. Maybe the next 2-3 years will make us happy..i hope.
Yes the USHL is getting stronger, as the USNDTP helps and across the US the overall hockey program continues to make big strides. But I wouldn't try and compare it with the CHL, it's not fair to the USHL, even though both are their countries top junior leauges, you need to keep a few things in context. First the CHL has been around for a long time and has the history of being the best development league in the world while the USHL has been around since the '60's in different forms, it only recently became a junior league.

With the rule change in '05 by the NCAA, kids could now be drafted out of the USHL and not lose their NCAA rights. So this forced scouts to pay more attention to the USHL and we are seeing that now with some teams looking to that league since you know the CHL is going to be heavily scouted as it is every year.

Also keep in mind the difference of the leagues. In the CHL you are looking at mostly 4 or 5 years (since they can return as overagers) but in the USHL, since it's a feeder league, kids mostly are there for a year or two, some more of course, if they need to make the grades to make the NCAA or want to try and bulk up more before stepping up to the NCAA.

The OHL and WHL are going to continue to be the top development leagues in hockey, just as the Q will have it's good years and it's bad years, but that doesn't mean you can't find very good players in other leagues and it doesn't mean that everyone should go the CHL route as different things are good for different players.

If you go the USHL route, you get longer to look at your prospects, plus they are NCAA bound so they will be playing against older more physically mature players, and you hope that you get lucky and find some kids that have been underscouted. In the CHL you get the NHL style training, the long schedule against a high level of competition. But it's also an area that will be hard to find many hidden gems since the CHL is so heavily scouted.

Personally I don't care where a player is drafted, to me if you draft the right ones, you will be ok. I think the Habs have had more trouble at the development stage then they have had at the draft table, but there have been hits and misses across the board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
We didn't take anyone from the USHL in the 1st round of 2010 draft. No, Tinordi didn't play in the USHL.

Thread should be closed on account of ignorance. Sorry but any self-proclaimed fan of the Habs should know where their most recent 1st rounder played.
The USNDTP re-joined the USHL for a second time (they were apart of the USHL back when Komisarek was with the USNDTP).

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07-25-2010, 12:09 PM
  #22
Andy
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Whats the big deal? Timmons hasn't drafted ANY 1st line talent since he has been here. Does it really matter which league he picks his junk from?
Who's Timmons?

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07-25-2010, 12:25 PM
  #23
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Tinordi did play in the USHL - but he also played against top 17-year-old talent in various tourneys as part of the USNTDP...I'd hardly consider him strictly a product of th USHL. Same goes for Leblanc..the majority of his hockey development took place in Quebec, not the USHL....pretty tough to thus "consider" him to be a "product" of the USHL.

I think one of the reasons Trevor and his staff ends up going the USHL or American route is because players aren't scouted as much down there as they are in the CHL - he figures he might be able to find more diamonds in the rough. You're not going to pull too many surprises drafting a CHL player in the first round... the majority of head scouts and crossover scouts in the NHL work out of Canada..and is where the majority of scouting is done each season....thus it should be easier to find hidden gems in the US.

It's still way to early to judge most if his USHL selections - but Quailer might be a good example of that...wasn't hyped much in his draft year, and wasn't scouted all that much, but Trevor and his staff saw the raw potential and picked what might turn out to be a steal in the mid rounds given his physical abilities.

I also think Trevor relies heavily on the opinions of Westrum and Karpan....they are two of his main scouts, as evidenced by neither of them being part of Gauthier's scouting purge.

Last, but not least, I think he drafted players from the USHL because he thought they were the best players available at the time.

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07-25-2010, 01:17 PM
  #24
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Hidden gems are in Europe ( Markov,Plek, Halak ) not in the USHL.

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07-25-2010, 01:25 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
Hidden gems are in Europe ( Markov,Plek, Halak ) not in the USHL.
Markov ; 6th round, 162nd overall
Plekanec ; 3rd round, 71st overall
Halak ; 9th round, 271st overall

While I do see your point, how many of the European players selected that far down busted compared to the ones that turned into gems? And at that, how many other teams passed on these guys? Most passed on them 2-3 times over. It's a crap shoot.

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