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Old
07-24-2010, 08:09 PM
  #51
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We need a time machine to go back to 2004-05'. Then everyone would be saying Weiss, Boumeester, Luongo, Horton will lead Florida to a cup. They're the next dynasty. They built the right way through the draft.

Seriously, the consensus next great team in hockey was Florida, not Pittsburgh or Chicago.

But look out! They are getting great picks! The Leafs have no chance! The cup is coming to Miami!!!

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07-24-2010, 08:19 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Rockinz View Post
Yes, but Dale Tallon IMO is one of the best drafting GM's !


The biggest HF myth if there was one

Tallon's drafting was less then mediocre outside of Kane/Toews easy picks

Hjalmarsson is only other player he drafted to have success at NHL level

Skille has yet to prove he can play in NHL and Blunden is a 4th line/AHL tweener in Columbus

Outside of that no other draft picks he has selected have even played an NHL game

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07-24-2010, 08:34 PM
  #53
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Dale Tallon made some idiotic mistakes in Chicago. He shouldn't be overrated. Anyone would have picked Kane and Toews.

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07-24-2010, 08:56 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


The biggest HF myth if there was one

Tallon's drafting was less then mediocre outside of Kane/Toews easy picks

Hjalmarsson is only other player he drafted to have success at NHL level

Skille has yet to prove he can play in NHL and Blunden is a 4th line/AHL tweener in Columbus

Outside of that no other draft picks he has selected have even played an NHL game
But its not the GM that does the scouting for the most part .. That is why teams have amateur scouts that span the World looking for talent.

A good GM outside of the well know players available at the top of draft would rely on and allow his Director of Amateur Scouting make the last call in later rounds.

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07-24-2010, 09:10 PM
  #55
Patty Lee
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Originally Posted by KESSELsnapshot View Post
obviously toronto, but florida is intentionally going to suck this year so they can build through the draft like chicago so i don't know if thats fair.
that's not the players plan. I guarantee you that

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07-24-2010, 10:04 PM
  #56
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Toronto > Florida

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07-24-2010, 10:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
But its not the GM that does the scouting for the most part .. That is why teams have amateur scouts that span the World looking for talent.

A good GM outside of the well know players available at the top of draft would rely on and allow his Director of Amateur Scouting make the last call in later rounds.
doesnt change the fact that as a collective group if you prefer, they do not do a good job of it. ...or maybe they do, what do i know

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07-25-2010, 12:24 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


The biggest HF myth if there was one

Tallon's drafting was less then mediocre outside of Kane/Toews easy picks

Hjalmarsson is only other player he drafted to have success at NHL level

Skille has yet to prove he can play in NHL and Blunden is a 4th line/AHL tweener in Columbus

Outside of that no other draft picks he has selected have even played an NHL game
I'm seeing you around here more and more these days... Are you eventually going to come out of the closet or are you just our resident Black Hawks liason/expert?

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07-25-2010, 02:04 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


The biggest HF myth if there was one

Tallon's drafting was less then mediocre outside of Kane/Toews easy picks

Hjalmarsson is only other player he drafted to have success at NHL level

Skille has yet to prove he can play in NHL and Blunden is a 4th line/AHL tweener in Columbus

Outside of that no other draft picks he has selected have even played an NHL game
Until this upcoming season then about 6 of his picks should be in the line up.

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07-25-2010, 07:33 AM
  #60
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Kadri Fan View Post
How are Florida's forwards better than Toronto?

They don't have a young sniper of Kessel's caliber (Booth is good, but not in Kessel's league), and their top 2 C of Weiss and Reinprecht aren't even as good as Bozak and Grabovski. Frolik is a good young piece, but I don't see him reaching Kessel's caliber either.

They don't have the bottom 6 toughness and grit that the Leafs have, and they don't have an up and coming talent like Kadri to look forward to soon.

On Defense its Toronto by a mile, and in net I give the edge to Florida.

But overall its not even close, I don't know why there's so much pessimism, but we are a much better team now and in the future than Florida is.
Whereas I'd probably take Toronto's forward corps on whole over that of the current Panthers, I think you're bolded statement is a good bit off. Of the four players you mention, Weiss is far-and-away the best to date and Reinprecht has achieved more in his modest career than Bozak and Grabovski combined.

One can argue about their respective skillsets, but to date there's nothing backing that statement of yours.

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07-25-2010, 07:45 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Toronto and Florida are the only two NHL franchises to not make the playoffs since the 2005 lockout.

Which team is in better shape today?
Both suck! FLA can't keep their assets and Toronto can't get any.

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07-25-2010, 08:00 AM
  #62
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I just laugh at the respect Florida is getting for rebuilding. They just spent years rebuilding!!! Where did it get them?

It amazes me how brainwashed people are at thinking you simply blow it up and rebuild and magic happends.

I'm not even sure if they can survive not going into bankruptcy by rebuilding yet again.
In general, Toronto is obviously the much stronger and much more stabile hockey market. Heck, it may be THE best hockey market around.

Florida doesn't have nearly that stability. A lack of winning and fannies in the seats should ultimately have that franchise paying a price.

Teams like Florida and Columbus are indeed examples that rebuilding the right way doesn't necessarily lead to Penguins/Capitals/Blackhawks style success.

What Burke has been doing in Toronto isn't necessarily a rebuild and many will love his aggressive attempts to build a winner. He does a lot of interesting things there, but that aggressiveness belongs to his repetoire and the Toronto market is in need of that. However, it won't promise success either. Lots of things have to go right.

ANECDOTE:
In light of this business standpoint, I visited Miami a few years back and had a lovely time there and managed to see a Panthers game while there. It was against the Lightning and I thought that would mean a decent turn-out. There were roughly 11'000 there and the building looked fairly empty, especially the upper area. The arena was pretty nice though and I & two friends got in for $34 + a free ticket given to us at the ticket window. According to the official price of the tickets, it should have cost us $130.

At the time, the free newspaper in town had a big article on Bouwmeester, who donned the cover page. Enjoyed reading that, an article that did hint on how valuable he was and how he'd be a mega-star if in a much better NHL market.

I came to the conclusion that basically, if you love hockey and you're currently settled/working in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area, you can see the NHL for a price and leisureness that most Canadian and big US city markets can only DREAM of. It's almost simply unfair that rabid fans in places like Hamilton, Winnipeg, Quebec City, etc. don't have that opportunity although those sites would likely make much more sense for a better NHL future from a business standpoint.

So getting back to the point of the thread, it may be irrelevant how well Florida builds. They'll simply not have the support and financial wherewithall to find sustained success. They could make another run for the cup and there's no guarantee they'd be selling that place out. Toronto could give everything to slip into the 8th spot in the playoffs and a ticket to the playoffs would be the hottest commodity in town. When it comes to free agents, one must ask which site they're gonna pick if the money is right? That's a bit of a no-brainer.

These factors will always lead to this humble poster thinking Toronto is better than Florida. I figure that'll be the case on the ice this season, even if a gut feeling tells me that Burke's "Damned-to-succeed" way of going about things may continue in delivering undesireable results.

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07-25-2010, 08:06 AM
  #63
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I just don't see the hype with Florida. They actually look to be building quite an impressive team from the net out, with of the highest-rated goaltending prospects in the world near NHL-ready.

On defense Kulikov has already made the jump into the highest-level, and has not looked out of place, and along with Gudbranson those two could quite possibly form a solid top-pairing for years to come in some time.

So, at the very least they have a solid starting 3 on the back-end developing in Markstrom, backstopping a top-pairing of Kulikov and Gudbranson.

This is where it breaks down. Their forward group has nothing going for it. Booth, Olesz and Weiss are at best complementary players on a good team, and none of their forward prospects project to be anything more as well. Frolik, Grabner, Matthias, Repik and Bjusgstad are all middling prospects at best. Essentially, there are no potential first-liners developing, nor are there any already on the team. The UFA marketability of Florida will always be quite weak as well, so their options are limited in acquiring players at will.

Prospects like Ellerby, Robak, Petrovic, Garrison, Comrie, Dadonov, Shore, Howden Salak, MacFarland and Brickley are all marginal prospects at best at this point, and have as much potential to become impact players as our own slew of Mikus, Aulie, Holzer, Reimer, Stefanovich, D. Mitchell, K. Ryan, D'Amigo, Blacker, Rynnas, Ross, McKegg, Olden, etc..

Toronto does have a potentail first-line developing, along with a supporting cast, which is all Florida does have developing at this point. Bozak, Kulemin, Versteeg, Caputi and Grabovski are just as capable of Florida's all-complementary offensive core mentioned above. Kessel is already a first-liner, and Kadri projects to be. This puts us head and shoulders over them.

We do also have just as capable a top-pairing already gaining experience in the NHL in Phaneuf and Schenn. Gustavsson is not as highly rated a goaltender at the moment as Markstrom, but even if Markstrom does reach his high-end potential Gustavsson has been rated consistently enough to largely negate the superiority of Florida's goaltending.

The possibility that Florida continues to draft highly over the next few years could in fact add this offensive element that they are completely lacking at the moment, at least in comparison to us. Coutourier could be that guy, but - even if they do draft a guy like that, with first-line potential, its ultimate effect on the franchise, especially in a supposedly wea 011' draft, is nothing to speculate success on. Florida will be competing for a playoff spot in a few years, but not much else, with the way the team is developing at the moment.

1st-line/1st-line potential forward group
Kadri, Kessel vs. noone, noone

Top Defensive-Pairing
Phaneuf - Schenn vs. Kulikov - Gudbranson

Goaltending
Gustavsson vs. Markstrom

Additional factors:
Internal cap?
Low UFA marketability?

Florida is not even a projected playoff team if none of their offensive prospects, or NHL core don't step up and project or play as legitimate 1st liners.

Think of it this way. If they haven't been anything other than a dissapointment with Jokinen, Horton, a healthy Booth - which in itself did consist of a legitimate first-line, and the likes of Vokoun, McCabe, Ballard and Bouwmeester as backstop, what, if anything, would make anyone think that Florida has much of a future at all, in comparison to any team?

Booth* - Jokinen - Horton

Ballard - Bouwmeester

Vokoun

vs.

Frolik - Matthias - Grabner

Kulikov - Gudbranson

Markstrom

Tallon has a lot of work to do, and that's an understatement. Their evelopment is heavily dependent on success of the draft, which is not guaranteed by any stretch, of course.

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07-25-2010, 11:29 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dutch Dreams View Post
I just don't see the hype with Florida. They actually look to be building quite an impressive team from the net out, with of the highest-rated goaltending prospects in the world near NHL-ready.

On defense Kulikov has already made the jump into the highest-level, and has not looked out of place, and along with Gudbranson those two could quite possibly form a solid top-pairing for years to come in some time.

So, at the very least they have a solid starting 3 on the back-end developing in Markstrom, backstopping a top-pairing of Kulikov and Gudbranson.

This is where it breaks down. Their forward group has nothing going for it. Booth, Olesz and Weiss are at best complementary players on a good team, and none of their forward prospects project to be anything more as well. Frolik, Grabner, Matthias, Repik and Bjusgstad are all middling prospects at best. Essentially, there are no potential first-liners developing, nor are there any already on the team. The UFA marketability of Florida will always be quite weak as well, so their options are limited in acquiring players at will.

Prospects like Ellerby, Robak, Petrovic, Garrison, Comrie, Dadonov, Shore, Howden Salak, MacFarland and Brickley are all marginal prospects at best at this point, and have as much potential to become impact players as our own slew of Mikus, Aulie, Holzer, Reimer, Stefanovich, D. Mitchell, K. Ryan, D'Amigo, Blacker, Rynnas, Ross, McKegg, Olden, etc..

Toronto does have a potentail first-line developing, along with a supporting cast, which is all Florida does have developing at this point. Bozak, Kulemin, Versteeg, Caputi and Grabovski are just as capable of Florida's all-complementary offensive core mentioned above. Kessel is already a first-liner, and Kadri projects to be. This puts us head and shoulders over them.

We do also have just as capable a top-pairing already gaining experience in the NHL in Phaneuf and Schenn. Gustavsson is not as highly rated a goaltender at the moment as Markstrom, but even if Markstrom does reach his high-end potential Gustavsson has been rated consistently enough to largely negate the superiority of Florida's goaltending.

The possibility that Florida continues to draft highly over the next few years could in fact add this offensive element that they are completely lacking at the moment, at least in comparison to us. Coutourier could be that guy, but - even if they do draft a guy like that, with first-line potential, its ultimate effect on the franchise, especially in a supposedly wea 011' draft, is nothing to speculate success on. Florida will be competing for a playoff spot in a few years, but not much else, with the way the team is developing at the moment.

1st-line/1st-line potential forward group
Kadri, Kessel vs. noone, noone

Top Defensive-Pairing
Phaneuf - Schenn vs. Kulikov - Gudbranson

Goaltending
Gustavsson vs. Markstrom

Additional factors:
Internal cap?
Low UFA marketability?

Florida is not even a projected playoff team if none of their offensive prospects, or NHL core don't step up and project or play as legitimate 1st liners.

Think of it this way. If they haven't been anything other than a dissapointment with Jokinen, Horton, a healthy Booth - which in itself did consist of a legitimate first-line, and the likes of Vokoun, McCabe, Ballard and Bouwmeester as backstop, what, if anything, would make anyone think that Florida has much of a future at all, in comparison to any team?

Booth* - Jokinen - Horton

Ballard - Bouwmeester

Vokoun

vs.

Frolik - Matthias - Grabner

Kulikov - Gudbranson

Markstrom

Tallon has a lot of work to do, and that's an understatement. Their evelopment is heavily dependent on success of the draft, which is not guaranteed by any stretch, of course.



I too, am not seeing this great young talent people talk about. And as stated, if it didn't work at all with the talent they had in the last few years, i'm not sure why people are so confident in their future.

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07-25-2010, 11:57 AM
  #65
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I don't think Burke thinks we're fine at centre but he can't just snap his fingers and get a star centreman.

And that Florida GM is guilty of some massive mistakes himself.
Savard is an option.

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I trust burke a lot more then I do some guy on he internet. And why is Tallon better then burke? is it because he fell ass backwards into some really good draft picks by winning the lottery.
And your just some dude on the internet too. So your opinion on my opinion really doesn't matter

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07-25-2010, 12:03 PM
  #66
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I'm seeing you around here more and more these days... Are you eventually going to come out of the closet or are you just our resident Black Hawks liason/expert?


I like coming around Leaf , Flyer and Devil boards. All the most active on HF and I usually like the discussions

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07-25-2010, 12:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
But its not the GM that does the scouting for the most part .. That is why teams have amateur scouts that span the World looking for talent.

A good GM outside of the well know players available at the top of draft would rely on and allow his Director of Amateur Scouting make the last call in later rounds.
You've been vocal in the past stating that this is the GMs issue since he picks the scouts and has the final say on all picks. Seems contradictory give Tallon a free pass and blame the scouts instead.


Last edited by EazyB97: 07-25-2010 at 12:18 PM.
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07-25-2010, 12:24 PM
  #68
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You've been vocal in the past stating that this is the GMs issue since he picks the scouts and has the final say on all picks. Seems contradictory give Tallon a free pass and blame the scouts instead.
Are you trying to say Mess contradicted himself?

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07-25-2010, 01:03 PM
  #69
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I don't know, but I like what Florida is doing. They added some great pieces.

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07-25-2010, 02:23 PM
  #70
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Toronto and Florida are the only two NHL franchises to not make the playoffs since the 2005 lockout.

Which team is in better shape today?
Toronto is the better team. Florida is in better shape. Florida is doing a rebuild properly. This is what the Leafs should have done.

Florida's Strategy = Rebuild through the draft.

Toronto's Strategy = Sign overpriced UFA's, trade draft picks and prospects, try hard to win now.

If I was a Toronto fan I'd be rioting in the streets in anger. The stupidity of the franchise consistently doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same mediocre results must be maddening. Just look through Toronto's history of trading away prospects and picks that turned out to be great players. It's enough to make any true Leafs fan with an unbiased opinion vomit. I'm a Sens fan so I know about building through the draft. Toronto doesn't get it.

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07-25-2010, 02:34 PM
  #71
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Toronto wins easily

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07-25-2010, 02:39 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
Toronto is the better team. Florida is in better shape. Florida is doing a rebuild properly. This is what the Leafs should have done.

Florida's Strategy = Rebuild through the draft.

Toronto's Strategy = Sign overpriced UFA's, trade draft picks and prospects, try hard to win now.

If I was a Toronto fan I'd be rioting in the streets in anger. The stupidity of the franchise consistently doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same mediocre results must be maddening. Just look through Toronto's history of trading away prospects and picks that turned out to be great players. It's enough to make any true Leafs fan with an unbiased opinion vomit. I'm a Sens fan so I know about building through the draft. Toronto doesn't get it.
1) Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the leauge
2) Leafs have a core of group of players 25 years of age and younger drafted in the top 10 of there draft(Phaneuf 25, Kessel 22, Schenn 20 Kadri 19)
3)Every player Burke picked up were in there 20's and a part of the future
4) The Sens are one of the oldest teams in the league and this past draft had a total of 3 draft picks while the Leafs had 7. With a team as old as yours you would think you might want to pick up some players in the draft But I gues I just dont "get it'

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07-25-2010, 03:07 PM
  #73
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Yes, but Dale Tallon IMO is one of the best drafting GM's and i think it was a great decission to bring him to Florida. I'ts hard to say they didn't do well in this years draft, the Panthers had more picks than anyone in the top 50 and most would say did very well with their choices in a deep draft year apparently. There is no doubt i think in anyone's mind they will be one of the worst teams next year and probably get another lottery pick that Tallon gets to observe for an entire season, so it's not all bad in Florida.

But having said that we are still the better team and will be for a long time!
LOL - how's his cap management skills?

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07-25-2010, 03:09 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by bionic View Post
1) Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the leauge
2) Leafs have a core of group of players 25 years of age and younger drafted in the top 10 of there draft(Phaneuf 25, Kessel 22, Schenn 20 Kadri 19)
3)Every player Burke picked up were in there 20's and a part of the future
4) The Sens are one of the oldest teams in the league and this past draft had a total of 3 draft picks while the Leafs had 7. With a team as old as yours you would think you might want to pick up some players in the draft But I gues I just dont "get it'

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07-25-2010, 03:09 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
Toronto is the better team. Florida is in better shape. Florida is doing a rebuild properly. This is what the Leafs should have done.Florida's Strategy = Rebuild through the draft.

Toronto's Strategy = Sign overpriced UFA's, trade draft picks and prospects, try hard to win now.

If I was a Toronto fan I'd be rioting in the streets in anger. The stupidity of the franchise consistently doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same mediocre results must be maddening. Just look through Toronto's history of trading away prospects and picks that turned out to be great players. It's enough to make any true Leafs fan with an unbiased opinion vomit. I'm a Sens fan so I know about building through the draft. Toronto doesn't get it.
I guess you have to leave out Florida's completely unsuccesful "Proper" rebuild to come to that conclusion.

What's your thoughts on them not making the playoffs once after getting all those high picks the last decade?

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