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Three Years Later: David Legwand's Contract

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07-26-2010, 08:25 AM
  #51
David Singleton
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Are you really including '98?
No. For completeness sake, I provided the information but noted the fact that it was one game played.

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From '99-'2009 (9 seasons), his average is about 3 minutes (2.9 from my calculation).
Legwand averaged 2:47 PP TOI/G over 8 seasons. Remove the 4:42 and it drops to 2:34.

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That's scoringline line time-- similar to what Hornqvist got this year.

Never did I say he had the most. In terms of your rankings.. you're also including players we got at the trade deadline who piled up most of their PP time with other teams. He's been atleast on the 2nd PP unit, and a few years on the 1st PP unit. In 07-08, you say he was 4th on the team. Nice to give the tie to Erat, who had the same 3:30 per game. That's first line PP time.
What are you trying to prove?

The stated opinion of most is that Legwand is likely the best defensive forward on the team and most assuredly the best two-way forward on the team. When played with other top-line talent, he generally produces in a similar fashion. When played with other levels of talent, he generally produces in that fashion. Statistics all bear that out. They also bear out that he has seen the least opportunities offensively compared to other forwards on the team.

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Also, he ranked FIRST in Even Strenth TOI/g for MOST of those years too. Add it all together, he's had plenty of icetime to show his offensive abilities.
That's because, being the best two-way forward for Nashville and Trotz's system, he plays against the opposition's top line the most (which get the most minutes traditionally). Nashville plays the matchup game much more than most teams. As such, Legwand see's ice time go up in those situations where defense is most paramount (against the opposition's best at ES or PK).

What were saying is that, other than 2006-07, Legwand didn't get much in the way of opportunity to go out as the top line with the responsibility to score goals. For the vast majority of his career, his responsibility has been to stop the opposition first.

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The apologists always come back to linemates. Johansson, Smithson, whoever. I can't count how many times people blame Smithson for Legwand's 40 goal drought, conveniently leaving out Legwand had 50% more icetime than Smithson, 2 min of PP time, etc. This year he was given less opportunities. Why? Because he didn't deserve more. Still, he was 2nd on the team in ES time (3 seconds behind Arnott), and had the 2nd most PP time among centers. Goc had 11 sec / game of PP time. O'Reilly had more per game, but only a handful of games.

But for me, it doesn't come down to stats. It comes down to his play. 1 in 10 years he's been a legit scoringline player, and it was his contract year. I don't expect it to magically happen for the next 4 years as he enters his 30's. I'm glad he's on our team, but the price is horrible, especially for a cash strapped team.
The price is not bad now. It was bad the past two years. Legwand will make $4.5 million the next two years before dropping to $4 and then $3.5. Those are all very livable.

As for linemates, you may want to shrug them off, but unless your're Ovechkin (or in that class) they matter. Nashville does not now, or ever (in my opinon), possess a truly elite offensive presence. Kariya was the closest, but even he was on the downside of his greatness.

It's so much easier to create offense when you have someone that can draw the defensive focus, or fits with what you do as a player. Look at Hornqvist (since you brought him up). Hornqvist found out that he needs to play around the net to be successful. Once that started to occur, he began to benefit from the 200+ plus shots that Shea Weber and Jason Arnott poured on net. I fear that Patric will regress some (say 22-ish goals) unless someone else is brought in to replace the number of shots put on net when he's on the ice due to the loss of Arnott.

Another great read is Seth's post above.

If Nashville (Poile and Trotz) want to increase Legwand's offensive output, find him the right linemates and play him in that role. He's proven to be capable in that role. Otherwise, maximize the abilities he does have (which is what they've done traditionally).

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07-26-2010, 08:59 AM
  #52
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Frankly, I don't want Erat and Legwand matched up. I think Legwand holds him back. Erat played much better with Goc (who aint all that great himself). We hear the same thing every year. Last year, it was Erat-Legwand-Santorelli will be a great 2nd line; just give them a chance. This year, it's Erat-Legwand-Kositytnen. Etc, etc. Legwand is a weak link on a scoringline, IMO. He just doens't have the skillset to produce consistently in the offensive zone. And I'm not asking for Oveckin-type numbers.

Any NHL player will put up more points with better linemates. We might as well bring back Scott Walker who scored better than Legwand and give him the best linemates we have.

This was the first year he was given 3rd line material linemates (only part of the time I might add). How did he respond? 40 goal drought. Just driving home the point that he is nearly totally reliant on his linemates to produce offense.

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Originally Posted by David Singleton View Post
What are you trying to prove?
That he's had plenty of opportunity to produce offense in the NHL. I see him as a shut down center with a dash of offense. I've given up on him being a consistent scoringline center.

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07-26-2010, 09:04 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Frankly, I don't want Erat and Legwand matched up. I think Legwand holds him back. Erat played much better with Goc (who aint all that great himself). We hear the same thing every year. Last year, it was Erat-Legwand-Santorelli will be a great 2nd line; just give them a chance. This year, it's Erat-Legwand-Kositytnen. Etc, etc. Legwand is a weak link on a scoringline, IMO. He just doens't have the skillset to produce consistently in the offensive zone. And I'm not asking for Oveckin-type numbers.

Any NHL player will put up more points with better linemates. We might as well bring back Scott Walker who scored better than Legwand and give him the best linemates we have.

This was the first year he was given 3rd line material linemates (only part of the time I might add). How did he respond? 40 goal drought. Just driving home the point that he is nearly totally reliant on his linemates to produce offense.


That he's had plenty of opportunity to produce offense in the NHL. I see him as a shut down center with a dash of offense. I've given up on him being a consistent scoringline center.
So if that's the case why continue to post about this stuff? If that's all you expect from him then you should be happy as a clam. His salary and contract aren't going to change so you can say what you want about him not producing offensively but it's not going to change according to you so either live with it or please stop.

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07-26-2010, 09:06 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I've given up on him being a consistent scoringline center.
Apparently, so has Nashville.

He hasn't played as a scoring line center, consistently, in a long time.

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07-26-2010, 09:45 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So if that's the case why continue to post about this stuff? If that's all you expect from him then you should be happy as a clam. His salary and contract aren't going to change so you can say what you want about him not producing offensively but it's not going to change according to you so either live with it or please stop.
Exactly. I'm all for a discussion, but this is just the same thing over and over again. The very best arguments that can be made, using stats I might add, aren't going to change your opinion. I think its time you accept it for what you say it is and move on.

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07-26-2010, 05:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by goalscorer View Post
Such as he was drafted at eighteen years old, that he was our first ever draft pick, that he fits into Trotz's mold, that has good speed, that he's sound defensively? I'm sure you can come up with more...my point was that he is a decent player, but any decent player who has played ten years with an expansion franchise will and should hold most of the records. Maybe this will help...


Legwand -704- 152- 255- 407 Ten season as a Predator
Arnott -275- 107- 122- 229 Four Seasons as a Predator
Erat -552- 123- 229- 352 Eight Season as a Predator

Trade Legwand, add two seasons for Erat, he breaks the goals and assists all time and add six for Arnott even at his diminishing pace and he breaks both with ease. I'm not knocking Legwand, but there are quite a few players we've had or have that if stayed or stay for ten plus years then Legwand wouldn't/ won't have those records. We may have to agree to disagree here. Your original statement doesn't hold any water with me.

Most people complain about Legwand's pay. There are those who want him to be Ovechkin and don't see the defensive value he brings. And then there are those who just don't like him. They are entitled to their opinions. They may not be well thought out in their posts, but I certainly don't consider them stupid. They may not see the game how you or I see it. They may never have played and don't realize the complexities of being in a shutdown role, etc.

In conclusion, I don't agree with most of what you have posted, but I don't think your stupid or sound foolish. We see things differently and that's fine. Thanks for your contribution to these boards and for supporting the only NHL franchise that matters.
agree with the disagree. As for the rest of the comparison, it's always a lot of if's. If Kariya played 10 years here he would be the leading scorer too. If Legwand and Erat were gone and Walker had stayed on a scoring line here for 10 years then he would be the leading scorer. But none of that happened, and it's Legwand that the team decided to spend the money on and keep around all this time.

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned from anyone yet is that when we signed Legwand and Erat, there was actually some question of how we would reach the cap floor. So even if there was overpayment (which 101st has disproven over and over with comp. players) it was more accepted at the time. We could have probably given these contracts on a shorter term, and then we get into more what ifs, if Leggy continued to produce 60-70pts then his price jumps up even more and his chances of leaving in free agency go up.

Suppose we were stuck with replacing Legwand this summer or last. Who would we have signed for $4.5M that would be a suitable replacement?

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07-26-2010, 07:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Exactly. I'm all for a discussion, but this is just the same thing over and over again. The very best arguments that can be made, using stats I might add, aren't going to change your opinion. I think its time you accept it for what you say it is and move on.
Maybe you should do the same... it's all Trotz fault, it's his linemates fault, he's so busy tending to other teams top lines he's doesn't have time to score... The stats of the matter are he's scored over 20g and 50 points once in 10 years. We've heard a hundred excuses as to why he hasn't established himself as a scoringline center, but he simply hasn't.

But of course, your opinion is "The very best argument that can be made". And you can make it over and over again, but no one else can dare try to say anything different

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07-26-2010, 07:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Are you really including '98? From '99-'2009 (9 seasons), his average is about 3 minutes (2.9 from my calculation). That's scoringline line time-- similar to what Hornqvist got this year.

Never did I say he had the most. In terms of your rankings.. you're also including players we got at the trade deadline who piled up most of their PP time with other teams. He's been atleast on the 2nd PP unit, and a few years on the 1st PP unit. In 07-08, you say he was 4th on the team. Nice to give the tie to Erat, who had the same 3:30 per game. That's first line PP time.

Also, he ranked FIRST in Even Strenth TOI/g for MOST of those years too. Add it all together, he's had plenty of icetime to show his offensive abilities.

The apologists always come back to linemates. Johansson, Smithson, whoever. I can't count how many times people blame Smithson for Legwand's 40 goal drought, conveniently leaving out Legwand had 50% more icetime than Smithson, 2 min of PP time, etc. This year he was given less opportunities. Why? Because he didn't deserve more. Still, he was 2nd on the team in ES time (3 seconds behind Arnott), and had the 2nd most PP time among centers. Goc had 11 sec / game of PP time. O'Reilly had more per game, but only a handful of games.

But for me, it doesn't come down to stats. It comes down to his play. 1 in 10 years he's been a legit scoringline player, and it was his contract year. I don't expect it to magically happen for the next 4 years as he enters his 30's. I'm glad he's on our team, but the price is horrible, especially for a cash strapped team.
Only three in ten years has he had legitimate scoring line talent on his wings. But, don't let facts get in the way of your rants. Have fun.

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07-26-2010, 07:34 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Maybe you should do the same... it's all Trotz fault, it's his linemates fault, he's so busy tending to other teams top lines he's doesn't have time to score... The stats of the matter are he's scored over 20g and 50 points once in 10 years. We've heard a hundred excuses as to why he hasn't established himself as a scoringline center, but he simply hasn't.

But of course, your opinion is "The very best argument that can be made". And you can make it over and over again, but no one else can dare try to say anything different
I think the major divide in this thread stems from one side saying he's a very good two-way player that has more to give if given a scoring line role (which obviously his contract indicates he's being paid for) and the other side calling him completely worthless due to some expectation of Legwand as a scoring line center due to his draft hype and the implications of his contract.

FWIW, I think he's been overpaid for the role he has filled the past couple of seasons, but don't believe his contributions could be replaced much cheaper and can't fathom where we would be currently without him. The record with and without him in the lineup is eye-opening, but the issue with judging Legwand on numbers alone completely is that it totally misses the intangibles he brings to the team on a nightly basis...

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07-26-2010, 07:35 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Maybe you should do the same... it's all Trotz fault, it's his linemates fault, he's so busy tending to other teams top lines he's doesn't have time to score... The stats of the matter are he's scored over 20g and 50 points once in 10 years. We've heard a hundred excuses as to why he hasn't established himself as a scoringline center, but he simply hasn't.

But of course, your opinion is "The very best argument that can be made". And you can make it over and over again, but no one else can dare try to say anything different
1) I think 3MI was referring more to hypothetical arguments rather than his own, and
2) what, his being a two-way guy who can score isn't good enough?

Seriously, on the Jackets board we see similar debates all the time about Klesla, and they're equally silly.

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07-26-2010, 07:40 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by goalscorer View Post
Such as he was drafted at eighteen years old, that he was our first ever draft pick, that he fits into Trotz's mold, that has good speed, that he's sound defensively? I'm sure you can come up with more...my point was that he is a decent player, but any decent player who has played ten years with an expansion franchise will and should hold most of the records. Maybe this will help...


Legwand -704- 152- 255- 407 Ten season as a Predator
Arnott -275- 107- 122- 229 Four Seasons as a Predator
Erat -552- 123- 229- 352 Eight Season as a Predator

Trade Legwand, add two seasons for Erat, he breaks the goals and assists all time and add six for Arnott even at his diminishing pace and he breaks both with ease. I'm not knocking Legwand, but there are quite a few players we've had or have that if stayed or stay for ten plus years then Legwand wouldn't/ won't have those records. We may have to agree to disagree here. Your original statement doesn't hold any water with me.

Most people complain about Legwand's pay. There are those who want him to be Ovechkin and don't see the defensive value he brings. And then there are those who just don't like him. They are entitled to their opinions. They may not be well thought out in their posts, but I certainly don't consider them stupid. They may not see the game how you or I see it. They may never have played and don't realize the complexities of being in a shutdown role, etc.

In conclusion, I don't agree with most of what you have posted, but I don't think your stupid or sound foolish. We see things differently and that's fine. Thanks for your contribution to these boards and for supporting the only NHL franchise that matters.
On average we're talking a half a goal difference per 82 game season based on average goals per game. Less than four points per 82 game season on average points per game. And that is at Erat's higher salary and lesser defensive prowess. Not exactly a huge offensive differential that you're using as your basis.

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07-26-2010, 08:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Maybe you should do the same... it's all Trotz fault, it's his linemates fault, he's so busy tending to other teams top lines he's doesn't have time to score... The stats of the matter are he's scored over 20g and 50 points once in 10 years. We've heard a hundred excuses as to why he hasn't established himself as a scoringline center, but he simply hasn't.

But of course, your opinion is "The very best argument that can be made". And you can make it over and over again, but no one else can dare try to say anything different
I've yet to make an excuse as to why he hasn't established himself as a scoring line center because I know that he isn't a scoring line center. As has been pointed out a few times, Legwand has barely been used as a center on a legitimate scoring line. If "it's all Trotz's fault" refers to the fact that Trotz ultimately decides how to use his assets, then I guess that's one narrow way of looking at it. Legwand's lack of production isn't the 'fault' of his linemates. Rather the result of the responsibility of his lines. Just because something happens to be true doesn't mean it's an excuse. It could just mean it's a contributing factor. One of several, I might add. Just as his productive years are the result of several factors.

Also, I never made the claim that my, or anyone's, argument is "the very best". It was obviously a statement about hypothetical arguments, as Visqi keenly pointed out (as each day passes I blame you, Visqi, for my declining hatred of the BJs). Further, it was a statement regarding hypothetical arguments for a particular side (pro-Legwand), not an attempt to demean the rebuttals of anyone who disagrees. My opinion can't be the "very best" of anything because it's an opinion. That's something I've come to realize in my short 25 years. Can we please lose the attitude that someone is being oppressed in a discussion board debate?


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07-26-2010, 09:42 PM
  #63
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(as each day passes I blame you, Visqi, for my declining hatred of the BJs)

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07-27-2010, 04:11 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
On average we're talking a half a goal difference per 82 game season based on average goals per game. Less than four points per 82 game season on average points per game. And that is at Erat's higher salary and lesser defensive prowess. Not exactly a huge offensive differential that you're using as your basis.
I understand. And I think you understood my point, if you read my argument completely. I'm not saying Erat (Arnott or anyone else for that matter) is more valuable than Legwand at all. I was pointing out that yes, Legwand is our franchise leader in goals, assists and points, but that just about any above average player with the same amount of time could accomplish what Legs has done.

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07-27-2010, 07:32 AM
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because I know that he isn't a scoring line center.
Than we have no disagreement.

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07-27-2010, 07:44 AM
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Only three in ten years has he had legitimate scoring line talent on his wings. But, don't let facts get in the way of your rants. Have fun.
That's subjective. He's had atleast 2nd line PP time, 1st in ES TOI almost every year, tons of time with Erat, plenty time with Walker/Sullivan (before we got Kariya), 2 years with Kariya, plenty of time with Ronning in the early years (the best weapon we had). He's had extended opportunities with just about every weapon we've had, minus Arnott. Yes, our weapons aren't anything to write home about, but for $4.5m he should be create some offense on his own.

My biggest beef is I think he played harder in his contract year. He was willing to take a beating and get pushed around. He battled at the front of the net, eventhough he ended on his butt most of the time. Not only was his play in the offensive zone more effective, his stats went up. Then he gets his 30m contract, and he turns back into a perimeter offensive player.

In the playoffs, we saw the Legwand that was willing to get pushed around again and venture into the battle zones. That's what I want to see for the next 4 years, regardless of who his linemates are. Then, maybe he will be worth more like he's being paid.

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07-27-2010, 08:31 AM
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seriously.

Slake... go sit in the corner for 6 hours for starting this thread....

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07-27-2010, 12:13 PM
  #68
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seriously.

Slake... go sit in the corner for 6 hours for starting this thread....


Legwand is a multidimentional player. He IS the one player who symbolizes the Nashville Predators; high defense and JUST enough scoring. Do I wish he was more offensively incined, hell yes. Do I wish that for all the players; Hell yes! I want Rinne to score at least 5 goals a season! But there is a very good reason Legwand averages 18 minutes a game. When he's on the ice, he's like a 3rd defenseman. I wish there was a true version of a +/- stat which measured how much a player contributes defensively and offensively compared to his counterparts.

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07-27-2010, 12:29 PM
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We actually have several points about which we disagree. I don't think Leggy played for a contract and then turned lazy. I do think he makes the team better. I do think he is a hell of a team player. Do I wish he produced more over the past two seasons? Of course. Is there a player out there making as much or less I'd replace him with? Not that I can think of.

I won't fool myself into believing that a center used in an almost exclusive shutdown role is also a scoring line center, though. If given the talent to be considered a scoring line then he will have those expectations, but then the debate turns into misuse by Trotz (which I don't buy) or a bad contract by Poile (which is bound to happen, though Leg made a good point about cap situation that summer on top of comparable contracts league-wide)

Those are the two arguments I see being relevant here. Not whether or not leggy can play.

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07-27-2010, 12:35 PM
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That's subjective. He's had atleast 2nd line PP time, 1st in ES TOI almost every year, tons of time with Erat, plenty time with Walker/Sullivan (before we got Kariya), 2 years with Kariya, plenty of time with Ronning in the early years (the best weapon we had). He's had extended opportunities with just about every weapon we've had, minus Arnott. Yes, our weapons aren't anything to write home about, but for $4.5m he should be create some offense on his own.

My biggest beef is I think he played harder in his contract year. He was willing to take a beating and get pushed around. He battled at the front of the net, eventhough he ended on his butt most of the time. Not only was his play in the offensive zone more effective, his stats went up. Then he gets his 30m contract, and he turns back into a perimeter offensive player.

In the playoffs, we saw the Legwand that was willing to get pushed around again and venture into the battle zones. That's what I want to see for the next 4 years, regardless of who his linemates are. Then, maybe he will be worth more like he's being paid.
Legwand signed a contract in the summer of 06 as well ... just before his best offensive season. You were mentioning something about him only performing in his "contract year" ... yet another point that doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

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07-27-2010, 02:33 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
That's subjective. He's had atleast 2nd line PP time, 1st in ES TOI almost every year, tons of time with Erat, plenty time with Walker/Sullivan (before we got Kariya), 2 years with Kariya, plenty of time with Ronning in the early years (the best weapon we had). He's had extended opportunities with just about every weapon we've had, minus Arnott. Yes, our weapons aren't anything to write home about, but for $4.5m he should be create some offense on his own.

My biggest beef is I think he played harder in his contract year. He was willing to take a beating and get pushed around. He battled at the front of the net, eventhough he ended on his butt most of the time. Not only was his play in the offensive zone more effective, his stats went up. Then he gets his 30m contract, and he turns back into a perimeter offensive player.

In the playoffs, we saw the Legwand that was willing to get pushed around again and venture into the battle zones. That's what I want to see for the next 4 years, regardless of who his linemates are. Then, maybe he will be worth more like he's being paid.
You question this guys toughness and willingness to battle? The guy played on one good knee for a good part of a season and into the playoffs. He could hardly walk after games and sat while taking a shower after games. Never question this guys willingness to play.

Your first paragraph says it best, these were the best guys we had. Of course he's not going to put up monster numbers with Cliff Ronning on a one line team, it just doesn't happen. It's easy for the other team to shut the top line down because of matchups. Arnott always had top line talent with him while playing here.

If you remember, two seasons ago, Legwand and Erat played on Arnott's wings for about 5 games and that line clicked. We saw the offense Legwand could produce. An injury caused the line to be pulled apart and we never saw them together again. Give Legwand top line talent and he produces. We've seen it. It's not like Legwand can just say, screw it, I'm gonna go out on the ice ahead of Arnott and play with Sully and Dumont this shift. It doesn't work that way. Trotz chose those lines. He got certain results because of it. Some good and some bad.

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