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Who are the top 10 defensive wingers of all time?

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Old
07-26-2010, 09:47 PM
  #1
broad
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Who are the top 10 defensive wingers of all time?

Looking to get educated on the subject.

Here's who comes to mind for me:

Gainey
Lehtinen
Provost
Houle
Pavelich
Tikkanen

Who else and in what order do they go in?

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07-26-2010, 10:12 PM
  #2
Canadiens1958
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Strictly Wingers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammar Police View Post
Looking to get educated on the subject.

Here's who comes to mind for me:

Gainey
Lehtinen
Provost
Houle
Pavelich
Tikkanen

Who else and in what order do they go in?
If you are looking at mainly or strictly wingers, not centers who would play a significant amount as wingers like Alex Delvecchio then consider:

Craig Ramsay, Ed Westfall, George Armstrong, Bob Pulford, Woody Dumart,Jarri Kurri,Brian Propp,Patrik Elias, Chico Maki, Don Marcotte, Daniel Alfredsson, Henrik Zetterberg, Brenden Morrow,Harry Watson,


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-27-2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason: typo
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07-26-2010, 10:17 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammar Police View Post
Looking to get educated on the subject.

Here's who comes to mind for me:

Gainey
Lehtinen
Provost
Houle
Pavelich
Tikkanen

Who else and in what order do they go in?
First things first : I this group, I'd withdraw Houle. He's great, but other guys belongs before he does. And there are a few guys that fits the bill before he does - so I'll take him away from now. All the other guys you named definitely belongs.

Two guys, two former Leafs actually, belongs in this group straight away. Nick Metz and Bob Pulford. So that gives us 7 guys. Then, I'd say Craig Ramsey definitely belongs, so that makes 8.

One guy that COULD belong as a better player than everybody named so far is Reginald Hooley Smith. As far as being the better player, he's probably the best of this bunch, but he was also a decent offensive contributor, and quite frankly, he might not be top 10 as far as defensive credentials are concerned. Not to mention -- he wasn't ALWAYS a winger. So, let's leave him away from the discussion, as we only have two spots left.

Some will name him -- but I just don't think George Armstrong belongs. Good system player, good defensive player for sure, and loaded with intangibles. Just not Top-10. IMO.

I think Herbie Lewis needs to be mentionned. Dunno if he belongs in the Top-10 of the defensive wingers, but must certainly be considered. Smith's the better player - just not sure who was the better defensive winger. Lewis scored low on the Retro Smythe chart thingy - again, a case where one guy was quite a two-way player, but "defensive"? Can't tell.

Old-timers like Louis Berlinguette and Murray Murdoch needs to be mentionned. Berlinguette was the best defensive winger before Murdoch (but his career was over when Murdoch's career began), and his competition - while terrific - was C Frank Nighbor. Thinks he belongs, but he's in the pre-1926 Era. Murdoch's career started PAST 1926, which helps him, and the great defensive players of the era were actually C's or part time wingers (Smith, Lepine). From that era, Georges Mantha deserves mention, but simply does not belong. From retro Selke evidence -- for what it's worth -- that era has a defensive winger candidate : Frank Finnigan

- Is there any accounts of when Ed Westfall played D, and when did he played W? And are those retro Selke stuff are coherent with those accounts? If so, we definitely have no. 9 guy with Westfall.

Actually the bottom spot would be between Frank Finnigan and Joe Klukay.


So that would be

Provost
Gainey
Pavelich
Ramsay
Lehtinen
Westfall
Tikkanen
Metz
Pulford
Klukay (sorry M. Finnigan, but I had to take a guy).

I did not forgot about Dumart. I'd rank him below the aforementionned guys.


Last edited by MXD: 07-26-2010 at 10:30 PM.
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07-26-2010, 10:37 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Post Red Line

Nick Metz, is a good candidate but he played the majority of his career before the Red Line was introduced.

The Red Line changed the wingers defensive responsibility, by making the game much more north / south with the breakaway pass and other features that changed the way the wingers played defense.

Joe Klukay is an interesting choice. I picked Harry Watson on longevity.

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Old
07-26-2010, 11:59 PM
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seventieslord
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Good choices so far. If I had to name 10, somewhat in order, it would go as follows:

Craig Ramsay (such a solid, quiet player. all evidence suggests he was better than Gainey but earned less recognition)
Claude Provost (the effect he had on the playoff stats of Bobby Hull and especially Frank Mahovlich is staggering)
Bob Gainey (adjusted +/- sucks, but the awards and his seemingly universal reputation still mean something)
Bob Pulford (most prolific penalty killer of the O6 era; plenty of written info supports his greatness)
Ed Westfall (most prolific penalty killer of the post-expansion era)
Nick Metz (tons of information supports his defensive greatness)
Jere Lehtinen (impossible to ignore three selkes)
Marty Pavelich (the primary shutdown player of a dynasty, he had a real effect on Richard's numbers)
Woody Dumart (must have been excellent defensively, his offensive numbers are extremely mediocre but he made the HHOF)
Esa Tikkanen (could have been many names completing the list)

Now I shouldn't have to tell anyone this by now, but obviously I haven't had the chance to watch a hundred games for each player with a notepad and critique their various defensive skills. My assessments are based mostly on information gleaned through the all-time drafts - such as selke voting, statistics such as adjusted +/-, penalty killing stats, and the depth and quality of information printed supporting their greatness - both contemporary and retrospective.

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07-27-2010, 05:13 AM
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Dreakmur
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Tommy Phillips, Jack Walker, and Hooley Smith

Frank Nighbor played a few seasons on the wing, right?

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07-27-2010, 05:28 AM
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I know there are some revionists who want to use statistical analysis to show Ramsay was better than Gainey but Scotty Bowman, who coached both Gainey and Ramsay, has said Gainey is the best defensive forward he saw. Watching guys play and seeing exactly what impact they had on the ice and who they faced on the ice the majority of their ice time is better than using statitical analysis.

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07-27-2010, 05:31 AM
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Lehtinen
Ramsay
Gainey
Provost
Pavelich
Tikkanen
Pulford
Klukay
Metz
Graham
Poulin

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07-27-2010, 05:48 AM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Tommy Phillips, Jack Walker, and Hooley Smith

Frank Nighbor played a few seasons on the wing, right?
just one.

Smith really shouldn't count, either.

Jack Walker should have been in my list.

You really think there is room in a top-10 for Tommy Phillips?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I know there are some revionists who want to use statistical analysis to show Ramsay was better than Gainey but Scotty Bowman, who coached both Gainey and Ramsay, has said Gainey is the best defensive forward he saw. Watching guys play and seeing exactly what impact they had on the ice and who they faced on the ice the majority of their ice time is better than using statitical analysis.
But the thing is, the two guys played at the exact same time, in the exact same role, always against the opposition's best players.

I don't care if Gainey was bigger, faster, and more physical - he wasn't as efficient.

Ramsay took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.12 when he was off the ice, to 1.50 when he was on the ice. Think about that!

Gainey took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.51 when he was off the ice, to 1.23 when he was on.

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07-27-2010, 06:26 AM
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I can only agree with the student here. Ramsay was better than Gainey. Which obviously doesnt mean that Gainey was bad or anything close to bad.

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07-27-2010, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
just one.

Smith really shouldn't count, either.

Jack Walker should have been in my list.

You really think there is room in a top-10 for Tommy Phillips?
Why shouldn't Smith count?

Smith and Phillips are not in my top-10, but they should be in the discussion I think.

Jack Walker is in my top-5.

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07-27-2010, 07:32 AM
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Datsyuk can also be considered one, he won a lot of Selke trophies already and sometimes plays as a winger.

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07-27-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I can only agree with the student here. Ramsay was better than Gainey. Which obviously doesnt mean that Gainey was bad or anything close to bad.
Switch their teams and most likely you'd switch their reputations as well.

Guys on powerhouses in a hockey hotbed tend to get noticed.

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07-27-2010, 08:12 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Linemates and Eras

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
just one.

Smith really shouldn't count, either.

Jack Walker should have been in my list.

You really think there is room in a top-10 for Tommy Phillips?



But the thing is, the two guys played at the exact same time, in the exact same role, always against the opposition's best players.

I don't care if Gainey was bigger, faster, and more physical - he wasn't as efficient.

Ramsay took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.12 when he was off the ice, to 1.50 when he was on the ice. Think about that!

Gainey took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.51 when he was off the ice, to 1.23 when he was on
.
Offensive skills of the respective linemates.

Don Luce > Doug Jarvis.
Danny Gare > Jim Roberts/Rejean Houle.

Offensive skills of their teammates without Gainey or Ramsay on the ice.

Montreal defense >>>>>>>>> Buffalo defense.
Lafleur/Lemaire/Shutt marginally > then French Connection
Tremblay/Risebrough/Lambert > Sabres third
Larouche/Napier/Wilson/Mondou/Hughes >>>>>>> Sabres filler forwards.

Scotty Bowman knows a little bit about the era.

Also comparing defensive forwards/wingers pre Red Line to post Red Line is rather interesting, especially when pre forward passing, pre-defense rules, is factored in. Pre 1929-30 you could stack all three forwards inside the defensive blue line and simply wait. Then a rule was put in that once the puck left the zone only the d-men and goalies could stay inside the blue line.The forwards had to clear the zone into the neutral ice zone.

Prior to the forward pass liberalization the forwards or wingers besides benefiting from the aforementioned when defending did not have to worry about defensive perimeters, passing lanes, passing angles body positioning or how it applied behind them. Basically any forward that could skate and was not lazy could play more than reasonable defense.Comparable would be rugby - no forward passing and American football with the vertical game. Simply the forwards relied on their forward skating instincts.

Scoring went up significantly for awhile once forward passing was liberalized because the forwards did not adapt defensively immediately. Defense effectively had to be relearned and/or adapted to the "new" offense. Assuming that the effective defensive tactics and forwards pre 1929-30 could translate their skills to the next era is not a supportable assumption.

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07-27-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offensive skills of the respective linemates.

Don Luce > Doug Jarvis.
Danny Gare > Jim Roberts/Rejean Houle.

Offensive skills of their teammates without Gainey or Ramsay on the ice.

Montreal defense >>>>>>>>> Buffalo defense.
Lafleur/Lemaire/Shutt marginally > then French Connection
Tremblay/Risebrough/Lambert > Sabres third
Larouche/Napier/Wilson/Mondou/Hughes >>>>>>> Sabres filler forwards.

Scotty Bowman knows a little bit about the era.
Yeah, the Gainey/Ramsay on/off ice numbers certainly have a lot to do with offensive success. The Ramsay/Luce/Gare line was very productive at even strength, especially for a "checking line".

I won't say Ramsay was better than Gainey defensively for sure, in large part because Bowman and others speak so highly of Gainey. Ramsay's numbers are so good, though, I have to think he is at least underrated by history as a defensive forward.

It's also worth noting that Buffalo was the best penalty killing team over Ramsay's career.

Best teams at killing penalties, 1971-72 to 1984-85. HOFers in red
Team TSH PGA SHGF NetPK% Main Skaters Main Goalies
Buffalo Sabres 3786 658 103 85.3% Ramsay, Luce, Hajt, Schoenfeld Edwards, Sauve
Boston Bruins 4246 788 155 85.1% Marcotte, Milbury, Park, Orr Gilbert, Cheevers
Philadelphia Flyers 5301 1000 200 84.9% Clarke, Barber, Jim and Joe Watson Parent, Stephenson
Montreal Canadiens 3583 665 122 84.8% Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Gainey Dryden, Larocque
New York Islanders 4171 786 145 84.6% Potvin, Westfall, Henning, Bourne Smith, Resch

Boston, Philadelphia, Montreal, and the Islanders were all close behind. But, unlike Buffalo, every one of these teams had a HOF goaltender, as well as between one and four HOF skaters among their four most frequent PKers. Ramsay certainly deserves a lot of credit for Buffalo's penalty killing success over this time. In fact, looking strictly at the stats in this way, he may have been the best penalty killing forward since expansion. And remember that killing penalties is close to a pure defensive task, even if it's not exactly the same as 5-on-5 defensive play.

As seventieslord noted, Ed Westfall also looks like a very good penalty killer, as like Ramsay he spent a lot of time on very strong penalty kill units.

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07-27-2010, 09:22 AM
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To follow up a little on my last post, here is a list of the top penalty killing wingers of the last 40 years, as defined by those wingers who spent a lot of time killing penalties on effective PK units. I think this list is interesting in part because few wingers have actually spent a lot of time killing penalties - usually centres and defencemen have a larger role.

PKTime=an approximation of the number of season equivalents of shorthanded ice time that the player played. Calculated by sum of (PlayerPGA/TeamPGA).

TeamPK+=strength of the penalty kill units for which the player played. 1 is average, lower is better. 0.80 means that the unit allowed goals at 80% of a league average rate. Calculated by 1-(TmPGA -TmSHGF)/TmTSH, with each season weighted by the players PKTime.

Best penalty killing wingers by the numbers, 1968-2010
Player PKTime TeamPK+
Craig Ramsay 7.96 0.77
Ed Westfall 7.68 0.80
Bob Gainey 6.58 0.83
Don Marcotte 5.39 0.80
Kelly Miller 6.16 0.85
Bill Barber 3.71 0.80
Brian Rolston 4.48 0.86
Jari Kurri 4.14 0.86
Jim Roberts 4.87 0.88
Jay Pandolfo 4.92 0.89

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07-27-2010, 09:34 AM
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SeanVT395
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I think Guy Carbonneau needs mentioned here even if he was a center

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07-27-2010, 09:42 AM
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Jay Pandolfo among the bests? That is fine

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07-27-2010, 10:00 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Penalty Killing and Other Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Yeah, the Gainey/Ramsay on/off ice numbers certainly have a lot to do with offensive success. The Ramsay/Luce/Gare line was very productive at even strength, especially for a "checking line".

I won't say Ramsay was better than Gainey defensively for sure, in large part because Bowman and others speak so highly of Gainey. Ramsay's numbers are so good, though, I have to think he is at least underrated by history as a defensive forward.

It's also worth noting that Buffalo was the best penalty killing team over Ramsay's career.

Best teams at killing penalties, 1971-72 to 1984-85. HOFers in red
Team TSH PGA SHGF NetPK% Main Skaters Main Goalies
Buffalo Sabres 3786 658 103 85.3% Ramsay, Luce, Hajt, Schoenfeld Edwards, Sauve
Boston Bruins 4246 788 155 85.1% Marcotte, Milbury, Park, Orr Gilbert, Cheevers
Philadelphia Flyers 5301 1000 200 84.9% Clarke, Barber, Jim and Joe Watson Parent, Stephenson
Montreal Canadiens 3583 665 122 84.8% Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Gainey Dryden, Larocque
New York Islanders 4171 786 145 84.6% Potvin, Westfall, Henning, Bourne Smith, Resch

Boston, Philadelphia, Montreal, and the Islanders were all close behind. But, unlike Buffalo, every one of these teams had a HOF goaltender, as well as between one and four HOF skaters among their four most frequent PKers. Ramsay certainly deserves a lot of credit for Buffalo's penalty killing success over this time. In fact, looking strictly at the stats in this way, he may have been the best penalty killing forward since expansion. And remember that killing penalties is close to a pure defensive task, even if it's not exactly the same as 5-on-5 defensive play.

As seventieslord noted, Ed Westfall also looks like a very good penalty killer, as like Ramsay he spent a lot of time on very strong penalty kill units.
Penalty killing. Consider that Boston and Buffalo played in smaller rinks which makes it easier to press on the PK since there is less room to cover and it is less tiring on a small surface.Boston also enjoyed a unique defensive and PK advantage since the two benches were side by side, basically a stride apart.A study of home and away PK numbers for Boston and Buffalo would be interesting.

Gainey also brought a physicality that Ramsay did not provide.

Still Craig Ramsay merits serious HHOF consideration - more than he has been accorded.

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07-27-2010, 10:30 AM
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Thomas Steen was a defensive gigant for the Winnipeg Jets. He is quite possible the most talented defensive forward ever to come out of Sweden.

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07-27-2010, 10:45 AM
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Don Marcotte and Dave Keon (I know he was a centre)

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07-27-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
But the thing is, the two guys played at the exact same time, in the exact same role, always against the opposition's best players.

I don't care if Gainey was bigger, faster, and more physical - he wasn't as efficient.

Ramsay took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.12 when he was off the ice, to 1.50 when he was on the ice. Think about that!

Gainey took his team's GF/GA ratio from 1.51 when he was off the ice, to 1.23 when he was on.
IMO Ramsay might well have been a better all-round player than Gainey. Same with Provost, Lehtinen, Carbo, Tikkanen ect.

The numbers you cite, and their respective +/- numbers, back that up. But let's face it, Ramsay, because he was on the 2nd line, did face checking lines more than Gainey. Gainey was used almost exclusively against offensive lines. Ramsay's line, because it had substantially more offensive skill, was able to score more and hence have better offensive numbers. But at the end of the day, IMO Gainey was a better defensive forward.

That said, Ramsay was robbed of the 1980 Selke. Gainey won that one on reputation. In addition, I've never been overly comfortable with the place Gainey has in hockey history. I think for a guy like him to have made the hall, as a forward, he should have contributed more offensively. Whatever advantage he had defensively over Ramsay, Provost, Lehtinen, Carbo, Tikkanen ect doesn't make up for the fact he wasn't nearly their equal in offensive talent.

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07-27-2010, 12:39 PM
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Thomas Steen was a defensive gigant for the Winnipeg Jets. He is quite possible the most talented defensive forward ever to come out of Sweden.
Yes, he was elite when it came to defense but I think he is counted as a center.

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07-27-2010, 12:51 PM
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I think Guy Carbonneau needs mentioned here even if he was a center
Big time and I was actually a lil shocked it took 17 posts before he was mentioned.

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07-27-2010, 12:56 PM
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Why should Carbonneau be mentioned in a thread about defensive wingers?

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