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Tortorella: If Staal has no contract by training camp, he shouldn't be there(in tc)

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Old
07-29-2010, 11:11 AM
  #51
Riche16
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Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
A fact?It's a fact that's your statement is completely incorrect. But I don't think that's what you meant.

There was an IF at the start of that sentence. I said "IF" Frolov is playing with Gabby and Dubi is not playing center then his career took a hit. Which is true... he's no longer on the top line... he's moved down the depth chart. i.e. - fact.

IF those things are true.


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07-29-2010, 11:11 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by li97 View Post
I don't get why people think that Christensen will not be centering one of the top 2 lines. He only started playing well when he was centering one of the top 2 lines.

He is a highly skilled player and needs to play with other skilled players to succeed. End of story.

Otherwise, I'm pumped to see how MZA plays.

Christensen is such a weird situation. It is odd to me how the detractors refuse to acknowledge how there were games last year where the kid looked incredible.
I mean, flying up the ice, making plays, getting the puck to the net.

I remember games last year where he was the best player on the ice and was creting scoring chances every shift.

Can we expect that from him for a whole season? I have no idea.

But the one thing I think people are underestimating with him is a sense of confidence.

For a kid who had so much promise early in his career and to get bounced around and really struggle everywhere he went, I think it was super rough on him mentally.

Last year we gave him a shot. We brought him back from the dead. He's only 26. And as I said he showed some great flashes last season.

Is he a part of the core going forward? probably not. But it would not surprise me for Erik to have a really good year.

Don't underestimate the importance of confidence in your abilities.

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07-29-2010, 11:13 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
There was an IF at the start of that sentence. I said "IF" Frolov is playing with Gabby and Dubi is not playing center then his career took a hit. Which is true... he's no longer on the top line... he's moved down the depth chart. i.e. - fact.

IF those things are true.

Your understanding of things seems a little skewed to me.

Who is trying to argue that Dubinsky is a top line center? Not me, that's for sure.

He's still a guy who tops out as a #2 and there is zero reason to move him.

Because this team lacks talent and he's playing over his head because of that, does not in the slightest bit mean his career has taken a hit if he's not playing with Gabby.

Again, common sense.

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07-29-2010, 11:18 AM
  #54
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The most important thing the Rangers need to do right now is to sign Staal.

Going after Richards, Savard or whoever at the moment most likely puts Staal's return at risk. Boston's reason for getting rid of Savard is to free up cap space. They're going to want prospects. Dallas is weak on prospects as well. Either player comes here and we've only got another big contract to deal with. In the unlikelihood that someone will take Drury or Redden--fine but otherwise we don't have the space now. More than less I think the characters assembled now are what is going to compete in training camp for the team next season. I wouldn't expect too many moves in the meantime.

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07-29-2010, 11:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
There was an IF at the start of that sentence. I said "IF" Frolov is playing with Gabby and Dubi is not playing center then his career took a hit. Which is true... he's no longer on the top line... he's moved down the depth chart. i.e. - fact.

IF those things are true.

But does it really matter? IF Frolov plays on the 1st line and has a poor year, he won't be back. IF he has a great year, we probably won't be able to afford him and he won't be back. I don't see how what Frolov does in any way impacts Dubi's future with this team. Torts shuffles the lines so much anyway. I'm sure both of them will play with Gabs at different points in the season, maybe both at the same time.

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07-29-2010, 11:22 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
You're jumping to some pretty large conclusions here pal... the least of which is my belief that Dubi will be traded. I never said that. I said "More and more I feel like a trade will be made and we'll lose someone we like... like Dubi"

Avery is untradeble. If he was making 2M (like we're paying him) then he'd be less so... but any team taking him would be on the hook for 4M. Prospal is old and coming off knee surgery (making him expendable IMHO) so he won't get dealt in ANY deal for a center. If someone of value has to go... to get someone of value (a center) I feel Dubi MAY be one of those at risk to go.

I'm gonna leave it at that.

BTW... the "leaked" info you speak of... Was it just Dubi for Heatley? To my reccollection it wasn't. Meaning the deal wasn't right for us... especially with Gabby coming. You can't tell me that Dubi, plus someone for a number 1 center doesn't make more sense... perhaps?
What conclusions am I drawing? Responding to you stating Dubi might be traded? You just said it again right now. For the second time. That's what I responded to.


OBVIOUSLY Dubinsky has the most value. What the hell does that matter? A player on your team has value so you trade them?

Trading Dubinsky IN ORDER TO GET a center does not put this team anywhere near where they have to be.

People also need to get this fictious trade for a top line center out of their heads because they don't exist. They all have baggage.

And in my opinion the only one who makes sense (Richards) is absolutely not worth trading Dubinsky when you consider his cap hit and the fact he'll be a free agent at the end of the year. Not to mention losing Dubinsky in the trade negates the value of acquiring Richards.

And no it wasn't just Dubinsky for Heatley. Same as it won't be just Dubinsky FOR ANY LEGITIMATE WORTHWHILE TOP LINE CENTER OUT THERE, so AGAIN, the trade will not make sense for us.

Unless of course you and so many others are adamant about taking two steps backwards and trading away youth and roster players.

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Old
07-29-2010, 11:24 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Your understanding of things seems a little skewed to me.

Who is trying to argue that Dubinsky is a top line center? Not me, that's for sure.

He's still a guy who tops out as a #2 and there is zero reason to move him.

Because this team lacks talent and he's playing over his head because of that, does not in the slightest bit mean his career has taken a hit if he's not playing with Gabby.

Again, common sense.
Common sense tells me that without signing Frolov... Dubi would have probably been 1LW. Might have been Prospal. Now that Frolov is here (and from what Torts said) it SEEMS that he's at best 2LW. Less minutes... lower on depth chart... less PP time. Career hit? Maybe... maybe not. I wish we could ask him.

Please, I'm not saying he will be traded... I'm just more concerned (for him) now than I was say two days ago.

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07-29-2010, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
But does it really matter? IF Frolov plays on the 1st line and has a poor year, he won't be back. IF he has a great year, we probably won't be able to afford him and he won't be back. I don't see how what Frolov does in any way impacts Dubi's future with this team. Torts shuffles the lines so much anyway. I'm sure both of them will play with Gabs at different points in the season, maybe both at the same time.
Agreed.

People need to stop pushing me into talking about how Dubi WILL be traded. I never said that.

But IF Frolov has a good yr and we then want to resign him... THAT affects Dubi here no?

This is not to say that NYR wouldn't want Dubi on 2LW anyway. But if they need to package him for a 1C... it's more possible no?

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07-29-2010, 11:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Common sense tells me that without signing Frolov... Dubi would have probably been 1LW. Might have been Prospal. Now that Frolov is here (and from what Torts said) it SEEMS that he's at best 2LW. Less minutes... lower on depth chart... less PP time. Career hit? Maybe... maybe not. I wish we could ask him.

Please, I'm not saying he will be traded... I'm just more concerned (for him) now than I was say two days ago.
Are you more worried about Dubinsky's well being or the team? Did you want a 1st Line LW whos career high is 44 points?

Based on Dubi's play up until this point, he IS a 2nd Line LW. Just because he has been here longer doesn't mean he should be automatically pencilled in for 1st line duties.

Most importantly, if Dubinsky plays better then Frolov, you can bet top dollar that he will be on the first line. If he doesn't, then he doesn't deserve to be.

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07-29-2010, 11:40 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Common sense tells me that without signing Frolov... Dubi would have probably been 1LW. Might have been Prospal. Now that Frolov is here (and from what Torts said) it SEEMS that he's at best 2LW. Less minutes... lower on depth chart... less PP time. Career hit? Maybe... maybe not. I wish we could ask him.

Please, I'm not saying he will be traded... I'm just more concerned (for him) now than I was say two days ago.
In a perfect world I'm sure Torts knows Fro plays with Gabby. That doesn't mean it's going to work and it doesn't mean he isn't going to switch things up like he always does.

Not everyone on your team or organization needs to pan out to be a top line player in order to be a valuable component to the roster.

Dubinsky is part of the CORE. He WILL be here.

I don't think there's any reason to be concerned.

If a first line center was what was keeping this team from winning a Stanley Cup, then yes I'd say your fears would be warranted.

This team trading Dubi/Prospects/Picks for a first line center (one who is a myth, and doesn't exist, outside of Richards who doesn't make sense with his impending UFA) does nothing but possibly make this team a second round exit at best.

We need to keep Dubi/the kids/picks/prospects and when it's time for this team to take the next step then we acquire that first line center (most likely, and preferably through free agency).


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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Agreed.

People need to stop pushing me into talking about how Dubi WILL be traded. I never said that.

But IF Frolov has a good yr and we then want to resign him... THAT affects Dubi here no?

This is not to say that NYR wouldn't want Dubi on 2LW anyway. But if they need to package him for a 1C... it's more possible no?

To be fair, you brought up the fact that "someone may be dealt...possibly Dubi."

So now to get mad that people are bringing it up doesn't make sense. Saying the word "will" doesn't matter because nobody knows the future so it wouldn't change your comment to me or my response.

I think you answered your own question. Frolov doesn't really affect Dubi because he should be on the 2nd line anyway. It probably benefits him.

And again, how does packaging Dubi for a first line center, one that ACTUALLY is a top line difference maker, making us significantly better and a Stanley Cup team? It's two steps forward and one step back.

Making a move like that (because it will cost more than Dubinsky) doesn't make sense at this stage of our organization.

We're not ready to be a Cup contender right now. So you STAY WITH THE KIDS AND PLAYERS LIKE DUBINSKY until they've grown and when the time is right via free agency you acquire one.

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07-29-2010, 11:40 AM
  #61
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Torts had a horrid team last season and it looks like he will this season as well pending they surprise us all. I don't blame him for this. If we actually had good teams and we were sucking then I would be on the "FIRE HIM" bandwagon. It's another example of a coach taking it on the chin because the GM is a complete invalid.

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07-29-2010, 11:49 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Not everyone on your team or organization needs to pan out to be a top line player in order to be a valuable component to the roster.

Dubinsky is part of the CORE. He WILL be here.

I don't think there's any reason to be concerned.

If a first line center was what was keeping this team from winning a Stanley Cup, then yes I'd say your fears would be warranted.

This team trading Dubi/Prospects/Picks for a first line center (one who is a myth, and doesn't exist, outside of Richards who doesn't make sense with his impending UFA) does nothing but possibly make this team a second round exit at best.

We need to keep Dubi/the kids/picks/prospects and when it's time for this team to take the next step then we acquire that first line center (most likely, and preferably through free agency).

Come on man. I never said this. Nor do I think this. I may not be the sharpest knife in the chandelier but I'm not ignorant.

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07-29-2010, 12:03 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Come on man. I never said this. Nor do I think this. I may not be the sharpest knife in the chandelier but I'm not ignorant.
I'm not calling you ignorant and I don't recall saying you said this. I'm just stating a point.

You didn't respond to any other aspects of the post.

If you think Dubi has better chance of being traded because they acquired Alex Frolov then you aren't the sharpest knife in the box!

I understand what you're trying to say about the number of forwards and especially the LW but I don't think that your original point about that meaning Dubi could possibly be on his way out is valid.

I already stated all my reasons why but it doesn't make any sense at this time.

Could a player get traded? Yes. But I don't see any way in hell it's Dubi at this point.

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07-29-2010, 12:10 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I'm not calling you ignorant and I don't recall saying you said this. I'm just stating a point.

You didn't respond to any other aspects of the post.

If you think Dubi has better chance of being traded because they acquired Alex Frolov then you aren't the sharpest knife in the box!

I understand what you're trying to say about the number of forwards and especially the LW but I don't think that your original point about that meaning Dubi could possibly be on his way out is valid.

I already stated all my reasons why but it doesn't make any sense at this time.

Could a player get traded? Yes. But I don't see any way in hell it's Dubi at this point.
Sorry. I'm at work... that's as far as I got.

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07-29-2010, 12:10 PM
  #65
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i think torts is right in thinking this way

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07-29-2010, 12:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
In a perfect world I'm sure Torts knows Fro plays with Gabby. That doesn't mean it's going to work and it doesn't mean he isn't going to switch things up like he always does.

Not everyone on your team or organization needs to pan out to be a top line player in order to be a valuable component to the roster.

Dubinsky is part of the CORE. He WILL be here.

I don't think there's any reason to be concerned.

If a first line center was what was keeping this team from winning a Stanley Cup, then yes I'd say your fears would be warranted.

This team trading Dubi/Prospects/Picks for a first line center (one who is a myth, and doesn't exist, outside of Richards who doesn't make sense with his impending UFA) does nothing but possibly make this team a second round exit at best.

We need to keep Dubi/the kids/picks/prospects and when it's time for this team to take the next step then we acquire that first line center (most likely, and preferably through free agency).





To be fair, you brought up the fact that "someone may be dealt...possibly Dubi."

So now to get mad that people are bringing it up doesn't make sense. Saying the word "will" doesn't matter because nobody knows the future so it wouldn't change your comment to me or my response.

I think you answered your own question. Frolov doesn't really affect Dubi because he should be on the 2nd line anyway. It probably benefits him.

And again, how does packaging Dubi for a first line center, one that ACTUALLY is a top line difference maker, making us significantly better and a Stanley Cup team? It's two steps forward and one step back.

Making a move like that (because it will cost more than Dubinsky) doesn't make sense at this stage of our organization.

We're not ready to be a Cup contender right now. So you STAY WITH THE KIDS AND PLAYERS LIKE DUBINSKY until they've grown and when the time is right via free agency you acquire one.
The bolded are all opinions... ones that I happend to agree with for the most part.

But I'll say that taking two steps forward and one back is positive movement... something this organization should certainly try out sometime. If that positive movement gets you a 1C difference maker at the expense of a 2LW then it may be something to look at.

Again, I'm not saying "DO IT! TRADE DUBI!" Not at all. I'm willing to admit the posibility is there. You don't want to say that. Which is also fine. Your opinion is absolute. Mine is not. Agree to disagree.

I hope we stay with the kids/core/prospects etc. I really do. I just happen to think there's a possibility that one or more of them may go at some point. That's all. Read nothing more into it.

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07-29-2010, 12:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Sorry. I'm at work... that's as far as I got.
Me too. You can tell I have a lot to do today, right?


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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
The bolded are all opinions... ones that I happend to agree with for the most part.

But I'll say that taking two steps forward and one back is positive movement... something this organization should certainly try out sometime. If that positive movement gets you a 1C difference maker at the expense of a 2LW then it may be something to look at.

Again, I'm not saying "DO IT! TRADE DUBI!" Not at all. I'm willing to admit the posibility is there. You don't want to say that. Which is also fine. Your opinion is absolute. Mine is not. Agree to disagree.

I hope we stay with the kids/core/prospects etc. I really do. I just happen to think there's a possibility that one or more of them may go at some point. That's all. Read nothing more into it.

I guess the reason I'm definitive in my stance is because I believe the only way Dubi gets traded is FOR the number 1 center, and I don't think that person exists.

Like I mentioned, to me Richards is the guy. Bar none.

But why on earth would they trade a core member of this team and a kid who is only 24 (not to mention they'd have to throw more in than just Dubi) for a player who is 30, makes 7.5 million right NOW, and is a UFA in a year. They're arguably going to have to keep him to justify a trade like that. But they don't even have cap space to make that kind of move right now. When he's a UFA if they want to pursue him then you need to see what he's getting and determine whether or not at 31 he's worth it for X amount of years at X cap hit.

I don't disagree with the premise that Dubi could be moved for a top center.

It's just that until someone gives me the guy, other than Richards for all the reasons I just mentioned, I can't conceive how it happens.

That guy doesn't exist.

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07-29-2010, 12:32 PM
  #68
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I'd rather have him talked about what he knows, instead of speculating about what Sather will do with players (Frolov) and to players (Staal). I'd like him to say a few words about what kind of hockey he would like his team to play, does he still believe in offensive system ; what PP problem did we have last season and how we going to improve production, i.e. personnel issue vs. system issue. Something along those lines. In other words, I'd like to hear the coach as opposed to front office figure.
Weird - its like its an interview and you can only answer the questions presented to you

" So, what are your feelings about the off season so far?"
" Well, our offense wasn't firing on all cylinders last year, Andrew. I hope you don't mind if I go on a rant about something totally different for the next 30 minutes..."

Torts isn't talking about what Sather is doing "with" Frolov, he's talking about where he, as a coach, is looking to play him.

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07-29-2010, 12:35 PM
  #69
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On a side note, this is a great write-up by Gross. We are getting some top quality stuff from him and thank god. When Sam left and Dubi at BB shut down i thought we would lose a lot of info. Gross is the man.

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07-29-2010, 12:36 PM
  #70
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Imo, it would be foolish to trade Dubinsky at this point. Yeah he only had 44 points last year and it was career high, but he only played 69 games. The two years prior he put up similar numbers in full seasons. Dubi's heading into his prime now, I feel he's gonna average about 50 points maybe even grazing the high 50's.

The Frolov signing won't hinder Dubinsky at all. Yeah Frolov is a left wing too, but the org just needed more top 6 players. Another point is Frolov can also play RW and Dubi can also play C... so who knows they may end up playing together. Dubinsky played pretty well with Jagr his rookie season and Frolov can play a similar style.

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07-29-2010, 12:37 PM
  #71
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I definitely think* the Rangers are going after a top center, but at what cost, who is actually available and if they can fit him in is another story all together

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07-29-2010, 12:41 PM
  #72
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I definitely think* the Rangers are going after a top center, but at what cost, who is actually available and if they can fit him in is another story all together
Who?

Cost: Too much if they're a legitimate top center.

Can they fit him: No

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

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07-29-2010, 12:45 PM
  #73
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I definitely think* the Rangers are going after a top center, but at what cost, who is actually available and if they can fit him in is another story all together
I know Boston needs to shed salary and they might be shopping Savard and Thomas. Savards cap hit is a tad over 4 i believe and if the Rangers waive Redden and give alil cap back to Boston they can fit in Staal resigning and Savard.

I personally don't want Savard cause the concussions scare me off. I also think while this may be possible cap wise the Rangers aren't in the position to take on a contract like Savards, because of the years left on it.

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07-29-2010, 12:47 PM
  #74
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I guess the reason I'm definitive in my stance is because I believe the only way Dubi gets traded is FOR the number 1 center, and I don't think that person exists.

Like I mentioned, to me Richards is the guy. Bar none.

But why on earth would they trade a core member of this team and a kid who is only 24 (not to mention they'd have to throw more in than just Dubi) for a player who is 30, makes 7.5 million right NOW, and is a UFA in a year. They're arguably going to have to keep him to justify a trade like that. But they don't even have cap space to make that kind of move right now. When he's a UFA if they want to pursue him then you need to see what he's getting and determine whether or not at 31 he's worth it for X amount of years at X cap hit.

I don't disagree with the premise that Dubi could be moved for a top center.

It's just that until someone gives me the guy, other than Richards for all the reasons I just mentioned, I can't conceive how it happens.

That guy doesn't exist.
Problem is it doesn't matter what you think (or anyone else not named Glenn ***-hole Sather for that matter).

There may be no way for Glenny to aquire who he "feels" is a #1C without moving a Dubi, or a Cally or a Grachev, Stepan, Kreider, et all.

Like I said I don't want any of them moved... unless it REALLY makes sense. But it's well out of our hands.

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07-29-2010, 12:48 PM
  #75
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I love how everyone thinks the only time your a contender for the cup is if your the favorite from the start of the season...or even the favorite around playoff time... Let's just give the Stanley Cup to the President Trophy winner....

Now go ahead and throw your statistics at me. I doesn't change anything. Things don't happen the same every year. An 8th seed and 7th seed just played for who wins the east. What do your statistics say about the probability of that?

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