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Old
07-29-2010, 12:22 PM
  #126
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before or after they sign Forsberg?

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07-29-2010, 12:28 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Well the bolded part is pretty ironic. The rest of it, well it's clear your just a Carter hater.
No, I am just using your own statistical reasoning against your hypothesis. I am a Carter-hater......too funny, what are you two?

I am answering the question as to why Giroux should be at center and Carter needs to be moved to wing, period. I would love for someone to actually give me a reason why Carter is the best choice to play center over Briere or Giroux when both of those players have shown to be more productive to both them and their respective linemates, besides basing it on Jeff Carter scoring 46 goals one season. Oli Jokinen has scored a lot of goals too, does not mean he always made the teams he played on better suited to win a cup.

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07-29-2010, 12:29 PM
  #128
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I am going with the guy who is going to make the players around him better if he has the puck. We all know what Carter can do(skate up the wing, gain the zone with speed and shoot high and wide or into the defenders pads), but given the choice with either Carter or Giroux having the puck on his stick to set up the players around him who do you choose?

People are acting like Carter cannot score from the wing, not sure where this is coming from. If Giroux could give you 20-50 while playing center and Carter could give you 30-30 with Zherdev giving you 25-30 would you be happy with that lines production?
Well the ultimate goal of any lineup is to maximize every player's production. If Carter doesnt need Giroux to be on his line to maximize his production, then why put him there? Why not allow someone else to benefit from Giroux's immense talent?

We all know who Carter played with when he scored 46, so why not try to replicate a similar situation for him? Let him skate in the zone and cut to the middle and shoot all day if he wants, but put someone on his line who can go to then net and retrieve the puck. Then use Giroux with a player who legitimately needs a playmaker to score.

Leino-Richards-Briere
JVR-Carter-Hartnell
Carcillo-Giroux-Zherdev

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07-29-2010, 12:37 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Well the ultimate goal of any lineup is to maximize every player's production. If Carter doesnt need Giroux to be on his line to maximize his production, then why put him there? Why not allow someone else to benefit from Giroux's immense talent?

We all know who Carter played with when he scored 46, so why not try to replicate a similar situation for him? Let him skate in the zone and cut to the middle and shoot all day if he wants, but put someone on his line who can go to then net and retrieve the puck. Then use Giroux with a player who legitimately needs a playmaker to score.

Leino-Richards-Briere
JVR-Carter-Hartnell
Carcillo-Giroux-Zherdev
You are making my point. Everyone thinks Jeff Carter needs the puck on his stick and he can score from anywhere, but he cannot replicate what Giroux can do which is create more space for the snipers like Carter and Zherdev.

I will predict this....Carter at center will not replicate the 46 goals, he will not reach 40. He played with Hartnell last year and it sucked. Carter and JvR? Two guys who play the perimeter and the last person I want to play with Carter if JvR, JvR should be playing with guys who will teach him to work hard on the boards and fight for the puck, get to the net.

Carter has been figured out by the NHL defenses....let him bring the puck up ice, force him wide, let him shoot from bad angles, puck swings around dasher, defensive forwards pick up puck and offensive zone lost.

Giroux....carry puck up ice, find open space by having the defense respect that you can pass, shoot, or deke your way around the defense. Find the soft spot in the zone, wait for offense to enter zone, set up offense through the point, create traffic.

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07-29-2010, 12:49 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
No, I am just using your own statistical reasoning against your hypothesis. I am a Carter-hater......too funny, what are you two?

I am answering the question as to why Giroux should be at center and Carter needs to be moved to wing, period. I would love for someone to actually give me a reason why Carter is the best choice to play center over Briere or Giroux when both of those players have shown to be more productive to both them and their respective linemates, besides basing it on Jeff Carter scoring 46 goals one season. Oli Jokinen has scored a lot of goals too, does not mean he always made the teams he played on better suited to win a cup.
Carter has had an 84 point season at center. You can discount it all you want, and you will because ignoring his success at center is the only way your argument makes sense. To put the ball in your court show me one winger who has had a 30 goal year riding shot gun with Giroux for a season? Giroux is a better passer/playmaker without question but let's stop anointing the kid as a #1 center, his career high in assists is 31 (Carter's 38). When your talking about offense production is really all that matters, and sorry Giroux hasn't proven that he is on the same level that Jeff Carter is offensively. Carter is better defensively and better at faceoffs so I really don't understand why people would want to put him on the wing.

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Old
07-29-2010, 12:52 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Carter has had an 84 point season at center. You can discount it all you want, and you will because ignoring his success at center is the only way your argument makes sense. To put the ball in your court show me one winger who has had a 30 goal year riding shot gun with Giroux for a season? Giroux is a better passer/playmaker without question but let's stop anointing the kid as a #1 center, his career high in assists is 31 (Carter's 38). When your talking about offense production is really all that matters, and sorry Giroux hasn't proven that he is on the same level that Jeff Carter is offensively. Carter is better defensively and better at faceoffs so I really don't understand why people would want to put him on the wing.
Carter will be playing centre because he's our best centre and our best overall forward. It's not even really a point for discussion.

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07-29-2010, 12:55 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Carter will be playing centre because he's our best centre and our best overall forward. It's not even really a point for discussion.
Blasphemy, how could a guy who doesn't turn his linemates into production machines like Asham and JVR be any teams best forward?

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07-29-2010, 01:01 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
True, but 'who knows what Lavy's going to do until he does it?' was my point.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Was the run to the SCF's a result of Carters two-way play or a result of Giroux and Briere causing matchup problems for defenses and what they did offensively? Richards I agree with, Carter needs to be more flexible and play where the spot is open and what will benefit the team. Briere and Giroux were experimented on the wings last season and the end result was they were most productive when at center during the playoffs.
You don't think Carter, a 40 goal scorer, causes match-up problems?

Carter has also been experimented on the wing and he looks completely lost. Briere and Giroux might not be PPG players on the wing, but they don't look like retards on skates like Carter does. They are the ones that need to be more flexible because their games translate better to the wing.

The playoffs are fooling a lot of people. Briere won't score 100 points playing centre like he was on pace for in the playoffs and he's a severe defensive liability. Giroux is a natural winger, anyway. This business that skilled players need to play centre in order to have the puck and score points is a John Stevens-ism that I can't stand.

We're a better team with Carter and Richards as 1a and 1b centres and one or both of the other two on the wing.

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07-29-2010, 01:09 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Blasphemy, how could a guy who doesn't turn his linemates into production machines like Asham and JVR be any teams best forward?
He turned Hartnell into a 30 goal scorer, shouldn't that be enough?

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07-29-2010, 01:11 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
He turned Hartnell into a 30 goal scorer, shouldn't that be enough?
That's what the sarcasm smiley was for

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07-29-2010, 01:21 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Carter has had an 84 point season at center. You can discount it all you want, and you will because ignoring his success at center is the only way your argument makes sense. To put the ball in your court show me one winger who has had a 30 goal year riding shot gun with Giroux for a season? Giroux is a better passer/playmaker without question but let's stop anointing the kid as a #1 center, his career high in assists is 31 (Carter's 38). When your talking about offense production is really all that matters, and sorry Giroux hasn't proven that he is on the same level that Jeff Carter is offensively. Carter is better defensively and better at faceoffs so I really don't understand why people would want to put him on the wing.
My opinion is that Giroux is more beneficial to the team at center over Carter.

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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Carter will be playing centre because he's our best centre and our best overall forward. It's not even really a point for discussion.
Carter is the best center because he scores goals in bunches and then disappears for a week or two and does not contribute other than faceoffs, can be caught floating, and could not pass his way out of a paper bag.

Watch what D-men do when Carter has the puck on the sideboards.....they rush him immediately, forcing him to move the puck. Watch what d-men do when Giroux has the puck, they stand off and use the stick to take away the lanes.



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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Blasphemy, how could a guy who doesn't turn his linemates into production machines like Asham and JVR be any teams best forward?
Put Carter with JvR and Asham or Carcillo...

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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Fair enough.



You don't think Carter, a 40 goal scorer, causes match-up problems?

Carter has also been experimented on the wing and he looks completely lost. Briere and Giroux might not be PPG players on the wing, but they don't look like retards on skates like Carter does. They are the ones that need to be more flexible because their games translate better to the wing.

The playoffs are fooling a lot of people. Briere won't score 100 points playing centre like he was on pace for in the playoffs and he's a severe defensive liability. Giroux is a natural winger, anyway. This business that skilled players need to play centre in order to have the puck and score points is a John Stevens-ism that I can't stand.

We're a better team with Carter and Richards as 1a and 1b centres and one or both of the other two on the wing.

Hogwash. Stevens benefitted guys like Carter more, dump and chase......Laviolette likes to have an offense who can gain the zone with possession, he also relies on a guy at the point to disrupt the play out of the zone, Giroux is one of the best skaters on the team and anticipates the play, how many times has he gone in and pick-pocketed the d-man and caused a turnover?

The Jeff Carter love is strong here, let us forget what the team did without Jeff Carter and go back to streaky Jeff, with his high and wide, soft play.

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07-29-2010, 01:24 PM
  #137
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He turned Hartnell into a 30 goal scorer, shouldn't that be enough?
And the following year he turned him into a 14 goal player. Once Lupes was gone, Cartsie's heart was broken, so he boned Hartsie's wife.

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07-29-2010, 01:27 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
That's what the sarcasm smiley was for
I know, I'm with you.

Personally, I'd like to see these lines:

JVR-Carter-Giroux - JVR has played well with Carter and G.
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Richards-Zherdev - Danny will create room for Z to fly
Shelley/Powe-Betts-Lappy

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07-29-2010, 01:30 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I know, I'm with you.

Personally, I'd like to see these lines:

JVR-Carter-Giroux - JVR has played well with Carter and G.
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Carcillo-Richards-Zherdev - Danny will create room for Z to fly
Shelley/Powe-Betts-Lappy
Unless JvR or Carter is going to volunteer to go to the net that line sucks. Plus JvR needs to grow some balls, put him with Carcillo and Richards, not Carter.

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07-29-2010, 01:33 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
My opinion is that Giroux is more beneficial to the team at center over Carter.



Carter is the best center because he scores goals in bunches and then disappears for a week or two and does not contribute other than faceoffs, can be caught floating, and could not pass his way out of a paper bag.

Watch what D-men do when Carter has the puck on the sideboards.....they rush him immediately, forcing him to move the puck. Watch what d-men do when Giroux has the puck, they stand off and use the stick to take away the lanes.





Put Carter with JvR and Asham or Carcillo...




Hogwash. Stevens benefitted guys like Carter more, dump and chase......Laviolette likes to have an offense who can gain the zone with possession, he also relies on a guy at the point to disrupt the play out of the zone, Giroux is one of the best skaters on the team and anticipates the play, how many times has he gone in and pick-pocketed the d-man and caused a turnover?

The Jeff Carter love is strong here, let us forget what the team did without Jeff Carter and go back to streaky Jeff, with his high and wide, soft play.
Giroux is not a better skater then Carter for starters. As for your pick pocket comment, Giroux had 6 more takeaways then Carter in 8 more games while having 13 more giveaways. Your argument that Carter had more success under Stevens is wrong also, Carter's best goal scoring months were January Feb and March, whereas Giroux had 10 assists in November (about a 3rd of his assists).

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Old
07-29-2010, 02:37 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Giroux is not a better skater then Carter for starters. As for your pick pocket comment, Giroux had 6 more takeaways then Carter in 8 more games while having 13 more giveaways. Your argument that Carter had more success under Stevens is wrong also, Carter's best goal scoring months were January Feb and March, whereas Giroux had 10 assists in November (about a 3rd of his assists).
Apples to Apples.....Carters first two years in the NHL: 23-19-42pts ; 14-23-37pts(62 games) / Giroux : 9-18-27pts(42 games) ; 16-31-47pts..........and as far as the skating, Carter is a long stride skater able to cover more ice like in lanes on the wing where he would be best suited, Giroux has more jump and is able to cover more area in a shorter period of time in tight areas, he is shifty.....advantage Giroux.

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07-29-2010, 04:41 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Can anyone please explain to me why people still insist on putting Jeff Carter at center when the best hockey of the year was played with Richards, Briere, Giroux at center?

Sorry Jeffie, but you just got played out of position, maybe instead of knocking up the ladies and knocking down the beers you should be learning how to play the wing and get a little more physical sonny.
Hey rookie. What happened? Jeff piss on your cereal? Or did he bop your main squeeze? What he does off the ice is his business. I know times have changed but could you imagine phone camera's at Rexy's back in the day!! Anyway dump your bowl out, wash it, and try again. Don't be a hater

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07-29-2010, 04:44 PM
  #143
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And the following year he turned him into a 14 goal player. Once Lupes was gone, Cartsie's heart was broken, so he boned Hartsie's wife.
Let me guess 16 years old

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07-29-2010, 04:47 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
My opinion is that Giroux is more beneficial to the team at center over Carter.



Carter is the best center because he scores goals in bunches and then disappears for a week or two and does not contribute other than faceoffs, can be caught floating, and could not pass his way out of a paper bag.

Watch what D-men do when Carter has the puck on the sideboards.....they rush him immediately, forcing him to move the puck. Watch what d-men do when Giroux has the puck, they stand off and use the stick to take away the lanes.





Put Carter with JvR and Asham or Carcillo...




Hogwash. Stevens benefitted guys like Carter more, dump and chase......Laviolette likes to have an offense who can gain the zone with possession, he also relies on a guy at the point to disrupt the play out of the zone, Giroux is one of the best skaters on the team and anticipates the play, how many times has he gone in and pick-pocketed the d-man and caused a turnover?

The Jeff Carter love is strong here, let us forget what the team did without Jeff Carter and go back to streaky Jeff, with his high and wide, soft play.
I was right you are 16 and a hater

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Old
07-29-2010, 06:24 PM
  #145
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New guy chiming in.

Giroux Richards Carcillo
Leino Briere Hartnell
JVR Carter Zherdev
Shelley/Powe Betts Lappy

Pronger Carle
Timo Coburn
Mez ODonnell

Carter is a center and Giroux is a wing, as they have been their entire hockey careers. It makes no sense to switch them. We already know Carter and Briere are much more effective at center. Giroux is effective wherever you decide to KEEP him. So he is the most logical guy to keep at wing. It makes no sense to switch Carter.

Its a pretty deep lineup doncha think?

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07-29-2010, 06:28 PM
  #146
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The only reason Carter would be moved to wing permanently is if he is playing on a line with Richards. We have 4 guys who can play center and right now we are 1 forward short of making 3 good scoring lines. Unless we make another move one line is always going to have 1 player who will have to play way over his head or look completely out of place. It may be that our best shot at making all 3 lines click is to put Carter and Richards on a line together with that guy who is out of place. I think Powe or Carcillo would have to be that guy. Powe has hands of stone but is good defensively, good at crashing the net, fast and throws his weight around effectively. Carcillo has the most offensive potential of the 4th liners but it is hard to trust his temper and with the added ice time he may be the NHL PIM leader again.

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07-29-2010, 10:16 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
My opinion is that Giroux is more beneficial to the team at center over Carter.



Carter is the best center because he scores goals in bunches and then disappears for a week or two and does not contribute other than faceoffs, can be caught floating, and could not pass his way out of a paper bag.

Watch what D-men do when Carter has the puck on the sideboards.....they rush him immediately, forcing him to move the puck. Watch what d-men do when Giroux has the puck, they stand off and use the stick to take away the lanes.



Put Carter with JvR and Asham or Carcillo...




Hogwash. Stevens benefitted guys like Carter more, dump and chase......Laviolette likes to have an offense who can gain the zone with possession, he also relies on a guy at the point to disrupt the play out of the zone, Giroux is one of the best skaters on the team and anticipates the play, how many times has he gone in and pick-pocketed the d-man and caused a turnover?

The Jeff Carter love is strong here, let us forget what the team did without Jeff Carter and go back to streaky Jeff, with his high and wide, soft play.
What games are you watching? As soon as Carter has the puck dmen are backing off because of his speed. I agree that i would like him to not take it wide as often when he is on the rush but the guy probably would have had another 40 goal season if he wasn't injured so it's not like teams have solved him. Even when the Flyer's are cycling watch how he is able to come off the boards because of the space he creates with his speed and size.

Also, this notion that he isn't physical and doesn't go to the net is bogus. He isn't the type of players that will lay guys out (except for the guy from NJ - Salema ?) but he isn't soft. He wins most of the battles along the boards and each year is more difficult to take off the puck.

I am not going to trash Giroux to make my point but Carter and the team is better served with him at center. Oh yeah, he is better defensively then Giroux too. Pick pocketing dmen is like saying Iverson was good defensively because he had a lot of steals. Lavi even played Powe at center against PITT because he didn't like Giroux defensively in that situation.

People used to make the same complaints about Modano and all he has done is pot like 500 goals.


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07-30-2010, 08:32 AM
  #148
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All of us still trying to explain the same things to one guy that thinks Carter should play LW or RW?

What a ****ing waste of time.

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07-30-2010, 10:56 AM
  #149
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JVR - Richards - Carcillo
Leino - Carter - Giroux
Hartnell - Briere - Zherdev
Lappy - Betts - Shelley/Powe

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell/Walker/Bartulis

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07-30-2010, 11:35 AM
  #150
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Isn't Betts out until November?

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