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Rangers Prospect Poll #15

View Poll Results: Who is the Rangers #15 Prospect?
Tomas Kundtratek 11 11.96%
Dane Byers 24 26.09%
Roman Horak 18 19.57%
Andrew Yogan 8 8.70%
Jyri Niemi 4 4.35%
Mikhail Pashnin 27 29.35%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-25-2010, 03:19 AM
  #26
nyr2k2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
draft position has no baring on their prospect rating position. and why are you obsessed with this "potential" 3rd liner comment? we have no idea how much he might improve at the pro level.
I didn't say that it did. What I'm saying is that a fifth round pick busts completely, whatever, they almost all do. A third round pick? You have a bit higher expectations for them, that they'll at least become decent organizational guys at the AHL level. I'm not speaking to a ranking in this list, rather the comparison you made between the two (that is, Horak could become the next Hillier). If Dale Weise flamed out, you wouldn't say he became the next Hugh Jessiman...different players, different expectations. That's my issue.

And I'm not obsessed with the third line comment. You made it, I responded, you didn't like my response and aren't backing off. So since we're making no headway on it, I don't really have anything else to add.

Quote:
and age. who cares that he is 25? Does anyone care that Matt Gilroy was a 25 y.o. rookie? Or that Erik Christensen found his groove at the age of 27? Do you know who else didn't make himself a career till 25? Martin St. Louis. Does Byers have the scoring pedigree of Christensen of St. Louis? No. Did I ever say he would be that type of player? No. but with the type of game he plays and the results we've seen from his AHL game, he's exactly what you look for in a 4th liner. Before last season, Brandon Prust had a season with 10 games and a season with 35 games. Last year was his first season with anything resembling a full season at 69 games. At the age of 26. His age doesn't matter. The number of games played in the NHL is not a statement of his play but rather an indictment of the Rangers' poor team management. Give me Byers on the bottom 6 over Voros or Lisin any day.

In closing

For Matt Gilroy, I don't care that he is 25. Why? Because he's been playing defense for all of five years, as opposed to someone like Byers who has been a forward his entire life. There's really no comparing those two situations, apples to oranges there. But Erik Christensen? Come on. Found his groove? Really? Half a point per game centering our top line? Color me unimpressed.

I agree that NHL games by a certain age is not necessarily an indication of a player's worth. When I said, "I know it's tough to land a spot on our bottom lines," that was an allusion to the log jam we have there. But Byers hasn't really stepped up in training camp, and didn't do much of anything to establish himself in those six games he's played. I remember him having one good game, an okay game, and a handful of invisible games. Now granted, that's a short time period, but I can't just anoint a guy a bona fide player in the NHL when he hasn't been that yet.

Is it poor team management, having him toiling in Hartford? Possibly. Is it possible the Rangers don't like his game and don't see him being worth a regular spot, even on the fourth line? Of course it's possible. I happen to agree with the apparent assessment of the Rangers management, that Byers just isn't that good. Could I be wrong? Of course. But just as I can't speak in absolutes about him not being capable of NHL play, you DEFINITELY can't tell me in absolutes that he IS an NHL player, which has been my main issue in this discussion.

You want to tell me, "Dane Byers SHOULD BECOME a solid fourth liner," that's gravy. I'll buy that. But that's he's "no doubt" good enough for the third or fourth line is just pure speculation at this point, wishful thinking for a guy that will be 25 and hasn't caught on yet. Again, will he be a good bottom six guy? It's absolutely possible, definitely within reality. But until he actually becomes a regular bottom line NHL player, I don't think you can label him as such. I've seen far too many players in my life labeled as things before actually accomplishing them, only to have it blow up in our faces.

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07-25-2010, 08:38 AM
  #27
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Its worth noting that Pashnin, who was fighting almost neck and neck with guys like Sauer earlier in the poll. has fallen completely out of interest.

Ive got Yogan, Byers, Pashnin, Kundratek, Horak as my next 5, but really at this point its a crapshoot. Anybody past 13 really has like a 10% chance or less of becoming a full time NHLer.

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07-25-2010, 12:05 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I can certainly say that Byers, who has actually played in the NHL, is certain to play in the NHL because he has. I can certainly say that Byers can be a 4th liner, because he has. I hope he will continue to develop to be a capable 4th liner which you can certainly argue he has not done yet but with 6 games of experience, you'd be jumping the gun.

I have no doubt he can play in the NHL. He'll play as a 3rd OR 4th liner. Convenient you chose to ignore the OR statement. He can definitely play on the 4th line and if given the chance, he may prove to be better than that. I cannot make that call until he gets his fair shot at a regular roster spot. Hopefully they don't play Boogaard all the time ahead of this kid.

Hillier, 2nd season 19-38-57 in 68 games. 0.84 ppg at age of 17-18. Horak, 1st season 21-26-47 in 66 games. 0.71 ppg at age of 18-19 (mostly 18). You DO realize he is already 19 years old. I know Hillier is a ECHL player and Horak could end up that way too. At a younger age, Hillier statistically had a much better season than Horak. What was your point again? I still like Horak but he is far from a can't miss player and for what he brings, he's going to have to be a top 6 player to make this team. You yourself pegged him as an "offense first" type of player. I can't see him with his skill set filling a bottom 6 roll. If he can't hold a top 6 position, he will suffer the same fate as Nigel Dawes who by the way went 47-45-92 in 72 games as a 18 year old.

Did you really compare Hillier's QMJHL stats to Horak's WHL stats? You do realize that makes about as much sense as comparing Marcel Hossa's KHL stats to Marian Gaborik's NHL stats, right?



Could Byers still develop into an NHL player? Yes. Are there late bloomers? Yes. However, at 25 years old, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt the way a guy like Kundratek does. I see absolutely nothing indicating he will be a 3rd liner of any sort. He's hardly fast, he's not big, he's not particularly great defensively, he's a one trick pony offensively and is hardly John Leclair in front of the net. He's physical, hits, is decent defensively, definitely willing to drop the gloves, and has the ability to put in a handful of goals per season. That screams 4th liner, at best.

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07-25-2010, 12:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Its worth noting that Pashnin, who was fighting almost neck and neck with guys like Sauer earlier in the poll. has fallen completely out of interest.

Ive got Yogan, Byers, Pashnin, Kundratek, Horak as my next 5, but really at this point its a crapshoot. Anybody past 13 really has like a 10% chance or less of becoming a full time NHLer.
I don't get why everybody likes Pashnin so much. He had an okay first season in the KHL. If he wasn't the first overall pick of a meaningless KHL draft then would he even be considered above Danny Hobbs and David Skokan?

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07-25-2010, 12:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
I don't get why everybody likes Pashnin so much. He had an okay first season in the KHL. If he wasn't the first overall pick of a meaningless KHL draft then would he even be considered above Danny Hobbs and David Skokan?
Hobbs is not a kid with any chance to be an NHLer. He plays a Blair Betts role in the NCAA, which is fine, but not something that will garner him consideration for the NHL.

Skokan went back to Europe, like Zaborsky, I think his chance with the Rangers is gone. He didnt light it up in a offense heavy QMJHL.

Pashnin's main support I think comes from the fact that, as an 18 year old, he played well in the 2nd best league in the world.

If we had an 18 year old kid who looked solid in the AHL, I have to think he'd be just as high, and that league is inferior to the KHL.

Pashnin is a question mark. But he could well turn into a Karel Rachunek type 3rd pair defenseman if he pans out.

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07-25-2010, 12:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Hobbs is not a kid with any chance to be an NHLer. He plays a Blair Betts role in the NCAA, which is fine, but not something that will garner him consideration for the NHL.

Skokan went back to Europe, like Zaborsky, I think his chance with the Rangers is gone. He didnt light it up in a offense heavy QMJHL.

Pashnin's main support I think comes from the fact that, as an 18 year old, he played well in the 2nd best league in the world.

If we had an 18 year old kid who looked solid in the AHL, I have to think he'd be just as high, and that league is inferior to the KHL.

Pashnin is a question mark. But he could well turn into a Karel Rachunek type 3rd pair defenseman if he pans out.
I meant compared to how those two were viewed when they were drafted. Pashnin was hardly great last season in the KHL. The fact that you compare him to Karel Rachunek if, and only if, he pans out, is my point exactly. People were voting for him as much as 5 spots ago.

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07-25-2010, 02:38 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I didn't say that it did. What I'm saying is that a fifth round pick busts completely, whatever, they almost all do. A third round pick? You have a bit higher expectations for them, that they'll at least become decent organizational guys at the AHL level. I'm not speaking to a ranking in this list, rather the comparison you made between the two (that is, Horak could become the next Hillier). If Dale Weise flamed out, you wouldn't say he became the next Hugh Jessiman...different players, different expectations. That's my issue.
I see your point. If I said he could become the next Chris Doyle, Max Campbell, or Tomas Zaborsky that's ok with you? Zaborsky is definitely a better comparison. I think your draft position point applies more for younger prospects whom we haven't seen much of. The more seasons we get, the better picture we have and the draft position becomes less and less relevant. It applies still to whether or not we consider them a bust because a 1st rounder not panning out is a bust where a 5th rounder not panning out is somewhat expected. With the Rangers draft history, I don't expect most 3rd rounders to pan out either so comparing a 3rd to a 5th isn't as big of a stretch for me as it is for you. I know you were just trying to make a point but comparing a 4th rounder to a #12 overall is not a very good analogy.


Quote:
You want to tell me, "Dane Byers SHOULD BECOME a solid fourth liner," that's gravy. I'll buy that. But that's he's "no doubt" good enough for the third or fourth line is just pure speculation at this point, wishful thinking for a guy that will be 25 and hasn't caught on yet.
I don't think without a doubt Dane Byers will become a SOLID 4th liner. I think he SHOULD become a solid 4th liner. I do think that he has the talent and skill to definitely play on the 4th line at the NHL level. He is good enough to play on the 4th line. His style also fits well in a bottom 6 role. I don't think he definitely WILL be on the 4th line because of management. I still think having both Voros and Brashear on the roster really impeded his chances. And God knows management isn't going to give the spot to the best player. Somehow I think Boogaard is going to prevent Byers from getting a spot and I think it's pretty clear who the better player is in that situation. I also wish Torts would play the 4th line more like Renney but that is a different topic altogether. 6 minutes is hardly enough time to do or show anything. It's easy to be invisible when you are hardly even there.

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07-25-2010, 05:32 PM
  #33
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Sure, Byers is far more proven and most likely could play in the NHL while Horak's chances are probably still less than 50% to ever play a game. But it's the old potential vs. proven debate, and for an organization with an abundance of bottom-6 forwards I rather take the boom or bust prospect that had a solid first year in the WHL over the 24-year-old potential 3rd line player.

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07-26-2010, 03:54 AM
  #34
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Pashnin is making a run for it. this one is close folks!

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07-26-2010, 10:04 AM
  #35
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Niemi add Williams.

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07-26-2010, 11:38 AM
  #36
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Byers over Voros or Lisin on the bottom 6 anyday...really setting the bar high, huh? lol

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07-26-2010, 11:54 AM
  #37
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pashnin should be 7th on this list AT LEAST. he's the most nhl ready dman we have outside of mcdonagh and he's just a baby. he was the best dman at prospects camp by a country mile. big goof by this board leaving him to 15th with the likes of career ahlers like dane byers.

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07-26-2010, 12:05 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kovalev27 View Post
pashnin should be 7th on this list AT LEAST. he's the most nhl ready dman we have outside of mcdonagh and he's just a baby. he was the best dman at prospects camp by a country mile. big goof by this board leaving him to 15th with the likes of career ahlers like dane byers.
He is 21 already (actually older than McDonagh), and while he could stick in the KHL last season (which is a great feat for any prospect) I think guys like Sauer and probably Valentenko are more NHL ready. He had a great scrimmage at the prospect camp, but it takes more than that to convince me. Plus, even though he has said his dream is to play in the NHL, he is still under contract in Russia, and that has to be considered a risk. I think 15-20 is absolutely the right spot for him.

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07-26-2010, 12:35 PM
  #39
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Byers over Voros or Lisin on the bottom 6 anyday...really setting the bar high, huh? lol
sad when you juxtapose this with the reality of it.

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07-27-2010, 10:52 PM
  #40
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Come on, we need a few more votes. Too late in this process to be having frequent tiebreakers.

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07-27-2010, 11:09 PM
  #41
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Come on, we need a few more votes. Too late in this process to be having frequent tiebreakers.
looks like it might be another tie-break =P first to 25 wins?

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07-29-2010, 02:13 AM
  #42
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close enough. can we just call this one? I just want to move on.

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07-29-2010, 09:23 AM
  #43
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I am about to leave for vacation so someone will have to take over.

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07-29-2010, 12:12 PM
  #44
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im feeling byers on this one

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07-29-2010, 12:26 PM
  #45
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Byers is 24. If people are going to argue so vehemently about him at least get it right.

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07-29-2010, 03:01 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Kovalev27 View Post
pashnin should be 7th on this list AT LEAST. he's the most nhl ready dman we have outside of mcdonagh and he's just a baby. he was the best dman at prospects camp by a country mile. big goof by this board leaving him to 15th with the likes of career ahlers like dane byers.
why? what has he done to warrant such consideration? He may be feisty, but he is only 5'11, doesn't seem to have too much of an offensive game, and right now is a 21 year old who played a modest role on a KHL team.

I really think Pashnin has gotten a bit overrated by some Rangers fans after that article of him was put up. No way is he better then Sauer or Valentenko. Heck, I like Byers and Niemi better, and I don't think much of those two at all.

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