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Toews vs Denis Savard

View Poll Results: Choose a player (all-time):
Denis Savard 12 85.71%
Jonathan Toews 2 14.29%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-28-2010, 01:26 AM
  #1
Ziostilon
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Toews vs Denis Savard

Clearly theres a age difference here. Savard was Toews coach not too long ago.
They both offer up as much as they can for the playoffs. Maybe Patrick Kane could've been a better comparison skill wise, but the captain is Toews and he offers intangibles that Patrick just doesn't currently have.

Who will be the better player of all-time?
Denis Savard or Jonathan Toews




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07-28-2010, 01:29 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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Savard is a Top 150 player of all time. Toews needs to get a hell of a lot better to even come close.

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07-28-2010, 01:36 AM
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Ziostilon
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which is why the WILL is underlined

since you get more kudos points for Stanley Cup wins and playoff performance. Olympic Gold performance. Hes on the right track, i'd have to think

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07-28-2010, 01:37 AM
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MS
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Odd comparison, as Toews is more of a Steve Larmer quietly doing all the little things right next to his much flashier teammate.

Toews had a brilliant playoffs but we should probably see him score more than 70 points in a season before we start comparing him to an all-time offensive great like Savard.

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07-28-2010, 01:41 AM
  #5
Razzmatazz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Odd comparison, as Toews is more of a Steve Larmer quietly doing all the little things right next to his much flashier teammate.

Toews had a brilliant playoffs but we should probably see him score more than 70 points in a season before we start comparing him to an all-time offensive great like Savard.
And immediately seeing this thread, I was thinking of Kane vs. Savard as a better comparison.

Too early to tell, but I think Larmer-Savard and Kane-Toews are similar generational duos...I can't put either ahead of the other right now.

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07-28-2010, 01:47 AM
  #6
seventieslord
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omg... why?

I say no, he doesn't have the offensive flash, but he could go down as a Steve Larmer, Dave Taylor, or Brian Propp.

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07-28-2010, 02:14 AM
  #7
Leafs Forever
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I don't understand the purpose of these polls. No one really knows, can know, and the best we can do is educated guesses that really aren't reliable given how young Toews is and how much more he could possibly do.

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07-28-2010, 02:21 AM
  #8
Ziostilon
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by all means, start a Kane vs Savard debate in this thread

like seventieslord has said, he doesn't bring the offensive flash
however, just by looking at his accomplishments of both the NHL and international play. would you care to put as much value in those accomplishments as you would with Savard potting in 90+ adjusted points

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07-28-2010, 02:25 AM
  #9
Ziostilon
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I don't understand the purpose of these polls. No one really knows, can know, and the best we can do is educated guesses that really aren't reliable given how young Toews is and how much more he could possibly do.
its not suppose to be a pinned down definite winner

we're just comparing to see if Toews is at least on the right track
its not as if im asking whether Dave Bolland is going to become the next Guy Carboneau, which hes not on track to be

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07-28-2010, 02:27 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Savard is a Top 150 player of all time. Toews needs to get a hell of a lot better to even come close.
Being a winner, as Toews is, cures a lot of ills and I think that he will be considered the better player in the end but there is a long road ahead of him as well.

Savard will have the better point totals both real and adjusted though IMO. Toews is just a more complete player at this stage of his career compered to Savard.

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07-28-2010, 04:24 AM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
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Being a winner, as Toews is, cures a lot of ills and I think that he will be considered the better player in the end but there is a long road ahead of him as well.

Savard will have the better point totals both real and adjusted though IMO. Toews is just a more complete player at this stage of his career compered to Savard.
Savard is 24th all time in playoff points per game, despite playing 166 total playoff games and 46 games in the playoffs past his prime. Sure he wasn't as "complete" as Toews, but the man was an offensive dynamo. He's tied with Lidstrom for 15th all-time in playoff points. And he did all this while spending most of his career without much offensive help on his team in Chicago (Steve Larmer being his best forward teammates by far).

Yes, I realize these numbers are inflated by playing in the 80s. But still. Let Toews have a couple of more playoffs like 2010 before using that as an argument in his favor.

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07-28-2010, 06:43 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Savard is 24th all time in playoff points per game, despite playing 166 total playoff games and 46 games in the playoffs past his prime. Sure he wasn't as "complete" as Toews, but the man was an offensive dynamo. He's tied with Lidstrom for 15th all-time in playoff points. And he did all this while spending most of his career without much offensive help on his team in Chicago (Steve Larmer being his best forward teammates by far).

Yes, I realize these numbers are inflated by playing in the 80s. But still. Let Toews have a couple of more playoffs like 2010 before using that as an argument in his favor.
No kidding.

Savard once had 29 points in 15 games in one playoff year.

The guy was an offensive beast who continued to dominate in the postseason.

Unfortunately for him, he spent most of his prime in an era when Edmonton and Calgary were in a totally different league from the rest of the Campbell Conference, and no matter how many points he scored, the rest of his team wasn't good enough to be a legitimate Cup contender. Especially in goal, which was a huge problem from the end of the Esposito era until the beginning of the Belfour era.

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07-28-2010, 07:26 AM
  #13
foame
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No kidding.
Savard once had 29 points in 15 games in one playoff year.

The guy was an offensive beast who continued to dominate in the postseason.
Blackhawks scored 81 goals in the playoffs that year.

Compare that to this year, when Toews had 29 points (in 22 games) while the Blackhawks scored 78 goals and it isn't as impressive as it sounds.

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07-28-2010, 07:40 AM
  #14
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Blackhawks scored 81 goals in the playoffs that year.

Compare that to this year, when Toews had 29 points (in 22 games) while the Blackhawks scored 78 goals and it isn't as impressive as it sounds.
Actually it sounds about the same except it took 7 extra games for this years version.

The point being you can't discount Savard's playoffs just because he was never on a great team in Chicago.

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07-28-2010, 07:57 AM
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tony d
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Denis Savard

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07-28-2010, 10:29 AM
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completely different players and a terrible time to "compare" them since toews is really just starting his career. I think Toews has a CHANCE to be a better player than Savard was.

I like Savard, he was a magnificent offensive talent. His moves are legendary and show up in youtube decades after he retired. He was a dynamic player, fun to watch and great for the game.

Toews brings much more to the table than Savard did and he's already fairly accomplished for his age. Toews impacts a game in A LOT OF WAYS besides slick moves and the scoresheet.

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07-28-2010, 07:23 PM
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Big Phil
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I personally put a lot of weight into clutch play in the postseason. Toews has that knack for sure but he's young and has a ways to go to catch Savard. Savard was religiously in the top 10 in scoring for about a decade. Toews has never gotten more than 69 points in a season. We know he brings more to the table overall and it appears that he'll continue the reputation as being Mr. Clutch, but Savard was no wimp in the playoffs either while he was in Chicago. Even in Savard's only Cup I wouldn't say he played bad before he got injured.

I love doing projections and I can certainly see the OP's point but it'll be hard to see Toews better all-time than Savard.

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07-29-2010, 02:16 AM
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Kyle McMahon
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Voted Toews. I think ultimately if he continues on the path he's on, he will surpass Savard. Just in his early 20's, Toews has already filled the crucial role of a strong two-way center that all winning teams need, captaining his team to the Cup as their best player. This is certainly worth more to me than a top-10 scoring finish.

Savard's numbers are strong for sure. But how much of a factor was getting two rounds in which to throttle pathetic Norris division playoff opponents? To those that can remember, did Savard ever have a playoff year as strong as Toews' recent one? I would think it unlikely.

To compare Toews to other centermen all time, I could see him in the Henri Richard/Dave Keon category. Probably isn't going to put up gaudy offensive numbers, but will always be a player who is more valuable than the on-paper accomplishments show. Of course, this is an optimistic projection, but he's already done a lot at a very young age.

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07-29-2010, 11:58 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Voted Toews. I think ultimately if he continues on the path he's on, he will surpass Savard. Just in his early 20's, Toews has already filled the crucial role of a strong two-way center that all winning teams need, captaining his team to the Cup as their best player. This is certainly worth more to me than a top-10 scoring finish.

Savard's numbers are strong for sure. But how much of a factor was getting two rounds in which to throttle pathetic Norris division playoff opponents? To those that can remember, did Savard ever have a playoff year as strong as Toews' recent one? I would think it unlikely.

To compare Toews to other centermen all time, I could see him in the Henri Richard/Dave Keon category. Probably isn't going to put up gaudy offensive numbers, but will always be a player who is more valuable than the on-paper accomplishments show. Of course, this is an optimistic projection, but he's already done a lot at a very young age.
I could see being the next Dave Keon as Toews' absolute ceiling. And I guess that does make him better than Denis Savard. I don't think he has nearly enough skill with the puck to be a Henri Richard.

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07-29-2010, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I could see being the next Dave Keon as Toews' absolute ceiling. And I guess that does make him better than Denis Savard. I don't think he has nearly enough skill with the puck to be a Henri Richard.









......


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07-30-2010, 12:22 AM
  #21
Big Phil
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......
Yeah, but he has to do that more often. Come on Jonathan, you have some mad skill, show it, don't be afraid or else you'll end up like Marleau or Bouwmeester as players who have supreme skill but have never showed it despite a flash here and there to tease us. So while he has put together a great three year start to his career, the truth is he may never win another Cup, it's possible. But if he wants to get to Savard's level he has to have the confidence to be more of a "take charge" guy like in this video.

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07-30-2010, 01:47 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I could see being the next Dave Keon as Toews' absolute ceiling. And I guess that does make him better than Denis Savard. I don't think he has nearly enough skill with the puck to be a Henri Richard.
I would agree here Henri was one fine little player

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07-30-2010, 09:39 AM
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markrander87
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Yeah, but he has to do that more often. Come on Jonathan, you have some mad skill, show it, don't be afraid or else you'll end up like Marleau or Bouwmeester as players who have supreme skill but have never showed it despite a flash here and there to tease us. So while he has put together a great three year start to his career, the truth is he may never win another Cup, it's possible. But if he wants to get to Savard's level he has to have the confidence to be more of a "take charge" guy like in this video.
Agreed, but in comparison to his peers, Toews would be top 5 in highlight reel goals like this.

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