HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Bruins to sign Seguin

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-03-2010, 02:55 AM
  #26
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by It Kills Me View Post
No. Why would money not paid out count against the cap?
To prevent teams from signing players to base level contracts with a whole slew of bonuses to lower cap hits.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 02:59 AM
  #27
silverstick
Registered User
 
silverstick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Maybe?
he will

silverstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:04 AM
  #28
Ice Whole
Registered User
 
Ice Whole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverstick View Post
he will
Are you an NHL scout? I'm pretty sure the Oilers scouting staff knew what they were doing and the Bruins wanted Hall as well. Seguin is a great consolation prize but if Seguin is going to turn out to be better, the Oilers would of taken Seguin over Hall. Your not an NHL scout so your opinion doesn't matter at all and you probably dont even know anything about them. Either way it's to early to tell who will be the better player but Hall was selected 1st overall for a reason.

Ice Whole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:11 AM
  #29
MxK1NGS
Registered User
 
MxK1NGS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 2,830
vCash: 500
Cya Savard!

MxK1NGS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:12 AM
  #30
It Kills Me
Registered User
 
It Kills Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
To prevent teams from signing players to base level contracts with a whole slew of bonuses to lower cap hits.
That's why you can only give performance bonuses on entry level deals, to players 35+ for 1 year deals and players coming off injury riddled seasons.

It Kills Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:14 AM
  #31
CloutierForVezina
Registered User
 
CloutierForVezina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Its not a coincidence dude, first overall picks always get a more extensive bonus package every single year. It is a prize for being the most sought after prospect in your draft year.
Players are free to negotiate whatever contract they would like.

Malkin, for example, had an ELC laid out so that he recieved the full 2 million allowed for "Group B" bonuses if he hit any one of them. (This means his contract was equal to Ovechkin's, despite being 2nd overall)

I would be very surprised if Hall and Seguin got substantially different contracts, considering how close they were considered going into the draft.

This was despite being a 2nd overall pick.

CloutierForVezina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:22 AM
  #32
guest1467
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 24,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by It Kills Me View Post
That's why you can only give performance bonuses on entry level deals, to players 35+ for 1 year deals and players coming off injury riddled seasons.
I did some digging around, and we are both kind of right:

Quote:
When teams calculate how much room they have under the cap to add players, any potential bonuses that a player can earn must be included in the player's cap count. For 2005-06 through 2007-08, teams could exceed the Upper Limit by up to 7.5% [the "Performance Bonus Cushion"] in order to pay such bonuses (for 2007-08, teams could effectively have an Upper Limit of $54,072,500) with the provision that any team doing this would have its Upper Limit reduced for the following season by the amount it exceeds the current year's Upper Limit. If the bonus is not paid, no penalty is imposed. [As mentioned above, the Performance Bonus Cushion is not available in 2008-09.] As the season progresses, if a player becomes ineligible for a bonus it will come off the player's cap count and that amount will become available to the team - but only for that season.
http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm

So I guess at first they are applied to the cap hit, but if they go over the upper limit, then they are penalized the following year. But if they are under the upper limit and the bonus isn't met then it doesn't count as a penalty.

I donno, kind of confusing, maybe someone could clear it up.

guest1467 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:49 AM
  #33
almostawake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I did some digging around, and we are both kind of right:



http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm

So I guess at first they are applied to the cap hit, but if they go over the upper limit, then they are penalized the following year. But if they are under the upper limit and the bonus isn't met then it doesn't count as a penalty.

I donno, kind of confusing, maybe someone could clear it up.
The Bonus cushion works in a similar fashion to LTIR.

The player's cap hit includes all bonuses but the team is allowed to exceed the cap by an amount equal to the player's bonuses (assuming that total bonuses on the team do no exceed the cushion). If a team uses the cushion and the player hits his bonuses then the cap hit is deferred to the next season. See Toews and Rask. If the player does not hit his bonuses, no cap hit is forwarded.

This year the Bruins will be over the cap no matter what. Sturm's LTIR pretty much guarantees that. Seguin's base salary is 900k. To get him on the opening day roster, that is all the space the Bruins need. Obviously this is playing with fire for the Bruins as it is quite reasonable to expect Seguin to hit a number of his bonuses, but ultimately, 900k is all the space they really need.

almostawake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 04:06 AM
  #34
It Kills Me
Registered User
 
It Kills Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I did some digging around, and we are both kind of right:



http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm

So I guess at first they are applied to the cap hit, but if they go over the upper limit, then they are penalized the following year. But if they are under the upper limit and the bonus isn't met then it doesn't count as a penalty.

I donno, kind of confusing, maybe someone could clear it up.
I'll do my best to explain it.

Next year's cap is $59.4 million, but you can exceed it by $4.455 due to bonuses. Say Seguin gets the max $900k base salary and $2.85 million in bonuses.

That $900k base salary must count against the $59.4 million cap. Since the Bruins are currently over the cap, I can only assume Seguin's entire $2.85 million in bonuses will be counted against the bonus cushion.

Whatever amount of that $2.85 million in bonuses that Seguin earns (possibly $850k in A bonuses) will count against the following year's cap.

UNLESS, the Bruins leave space in their $59.4 million cap to account for it this year. So IMO, even if Seguin signs for $3.75 million. I'd only count him as a $1.75 million cap hit ($900k + $850k in A bonuses) for any calculations as it's unlikely he will win any league wide awards IF you don't want a cap penalty. But we don't know what Chiarelli's (or Burke's, I'm a Leafs fan & the Leafs have a lot of bonuses) stance is on bonuses and cap penalties so we don't know whether he'll try and save some extra space to count it this year or leave it until next.


Last edited by It Kills Me: 08-03-2010 at 04:11 AM.
It Kills Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 05:01 AM
  #35
RStar*
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Red Deer
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,021
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehta View Post
Are you an NHL scout? I'm pretty sure the Oilers scouting staff knew what they were doing and the Bruins wanted Hall as well. Seguin is a great consolation prize but if Seguin is going to turn out to be better, the Oilers would of taken Seguin over Hall. Your not an NHL scout so your opinion doesn't matter at all and you probably dont even know anything about them. Either way it's to early to tell who will be the better player but Hall was selected 1st overall for a reason.
That's why I hate it when people say "xxx will be better than yyy. I know it!"

If they are prospects, then no, you don't know. Not even the scouts do. With how talented both Hall and Seguin are, either could become the better player. But Hall was obviously viewed by scouts as the better prospect, seeing as how the center starved Oilers picked him over Seguin.

Until they play a few seasons and Seguin moves up to be a first line center (if he proves he can), then comparing who's the better player is impossible.

RStar* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 05:49 AM
  #36
silverstick
Registered User
 
silverstick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehta View Post
Are you an NHL scout? I'm pretty sure the Oilers scouting staff knew what they were doing and the Bruins wanted Hall as well. Seguin is a great consolation prize but if Seguin is going to turn out to be better, the Oilers would of taken Seguin over Hall. Your not an NHL scout so your opinion doesn't matter at all and you probably dont even know anything about them. Either way it's to early to tell who will be the better player but Hall was selected 1st overall for a reason.


If you looked earlier in the thread i said IMO.

If my opinion doesn't matter, then why did you come in here and get all butt-hurt over an OPINION. You don't need to listen to what i say, that's just how i feel. I know i'm not a scout, its just a feeling i have about the kid, God forbid an OPINION offend anyone. :

silverstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 09:27 AM
  #37
HemskyToHall*
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,908
vCash: 500
Kid is gonna be a stud. Congrats Bruins.

HemskyToHall* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 11:18 AM
  #38
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by It Kills Me View Post
I'll do my best to explain it.

Next year's cap is $59.4 million, but you can exceed it by $4.455 due to bonuses. Say Seguin gets the max $900k base salary and $2.85 million in bonuses.

That $900k base salary must count against the $59.4 million cap. Since the Bruins are currently over the cap, I can only assume Seguin's entire $2.85 million in bonuses will be counted against the bonus cushion.

Whatever amount of that $2.85 million in bonuses that Seguin earns (possibly $850k in A bonuses) will count against the following year's cap.

UNLESS, the Bruins leave space in their $59.4 million cap to account for it this year. So IMO, even if Seguin signs for $3.75 million. I'd only count him as a $1.75 million cap hit ($900k + $850k in A bonuses) for any calculations as it's unlikely he will win any league wide awards IF you don't want a cap penalty. But we don't know what Chiarelli's (or Burke's, I'm a Leafs fan & the Leafs have a lot of bonuses) stance is on bonuses and cap penalties so we don't know whether he'll try and save some extra space to count it this year or leave it until next.
You're spot on.

Basically, bonuses count against the cap until they become unachievable, and the team is allowed to exceed the cap by 7.5% as a result of bonuses. Any amount that they actually do exceed the cap by will be counted against next year's cap. It's generally a good idea to leave space based on what bonuses you think the player will earn, but those details do not become available. He is eligible for big bonuses if he finishes top 3 for the Calder (if they're in his contract), but also may not get all of his "A" bonuses.

Therefore, $1.75 is a decent estimate.

seanlinden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 11:23 AM
  #39
Nugent93Hopkins
Welcome to the
 
Nugent93Hopkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Taylor Hall Show
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,079
vCash: 500
New Spezza in town.

Nugent93Hopkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 12:33 PM
  #40
ed bruin
Registered User
 
ed bruin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newton
Country: United States
Posts: 1,717
vCash: 500
im pretty sure the bruins are in cap hell now. Gotta get rid of somebody

ed bruin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 12:37 PM
  #41
It Kills Me
Registered User
 
It Kills Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
You're spot on.

Basically, bonuses count against the cap until they become unachievable, and the team is allowed to exceed the cap by 7.5% as a result of bonuses. Any amount that they actually do exceed the cap by will be counted against next year's cap. It's generally a good idea to leave space based on what bonuses you think the player will earn, but those details do not become available. He is eligible for big bonuses if he finishes top 3 for the Calder (if they're in his contract), but also may not get all of his "A" bonuses.

Therefore, $1.75 is a decent estimate.
If it wasn't for you I probably still would have believed what some guy on here said, that the bonus cushion is free money and only bonuses that exceed it are carried over. lol.

It Kills Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 12:58 PM
  #42
bruinsfan46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Bonuses CAN carry over to next season, but that doesn't mean Chiarelli is going to chose to. Basically, the B's are allowed to exceed the cap with bonuses, if bonuses get earned (some most likely will), and the B's end up spending over the cap as a result, they get transfered as a cap penalty next year. If Chiarelli doesn't want to start screwing up next year's cap (like Chicago did this year), then he'll leave adequate space for Seguin to earn whatever portion of bonuses Chiarelli reasonably believes he'll earn.

A max rookie can earn about $1.8m (including base salary) based on statistics only. Anything more requires him to win (or finish top 3) in major league awards, and he very well could be a calder candidate.
I think Chia pretty much has to right now. Unless he wants to trade Savard and send Ryder to the minors or something along those lines the capspace just won't be there this year for Seguin's bonuses. They'll have to be a penalty on next year's cap. Just like there will be a penalty on this year's cap for the Bruins: http://www.capgeek.com/news/20100702...ce-bonuses.php

bruinsfan46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 12:59 PM
  #43
seanlinden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by It Kills Me View Post
If it wasn't for you I probably still would have believed what some guy on here said, that the bonus cushion is free money and only bonuses that exceed it are carried over. lol.
The bonus cushion is not free money. If you end up having to use it once bonuses are actually earned, all of the money that exceeds the cap counts against next year's cap. Anyone who believes that this isn't the case has absolutely no understanding of teh CBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
I think Chia pretty much has to right now. Unless he wants to trade Savard and send Ryder to the minors or something along those lines the capspace just won't be there this year for Seguin's bonuses. They'll have to be a penalty on next year's cap. Just like there will be a penalty on this year's cap for the Bruins: http://www.capgeek.com/news/20100702...ce-bonuses.php
Until an actual reputable source reports that a team other than Chicago has cap penalties this year, I wouldn't asssume that capgeek is right. Boston may have ahd bonuses acheived, but chances are that tehy didn't exceed the cap by that amount. The fact that Toronto faces a cap penalty has also been debunked. There's a good chance that one of Savard/Ryder are gone before the season stars.

seanlinden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:01 PM
  #44
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,934
vCash: 500
Any chance the Bruins would consider moving Seidenberg? Shark's would probably be interested.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:04 PM
  #45
bruinsfan46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Any chance the Bruins would consider moving Seidenberg? Shark's would probably be interested.
I would say most likely not. They traded for him at the deadline and have now inked him to a new four year deal, it doesn't seem very likely they'd be looking at dealing him.

bruinsfan46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:11 PM
  #46
Coach Parker
Stanley Cup Champion
 
Coach Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
im pretty sure the bruins are in cap hell now. Gotta get rid of somebody
Nope. Sturm's LTIR makes it something that has to be dealt with when he gets back in December. You'll probably see Ryder in Providence with two sources (The Globe and the Herald) in Boston both mentioning it.

Coach Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:16 PM
  #47
glucker
Registered User
 
glucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 4,813
vCash: 500
Just because they're signing him, doesn't mean he's going to be in the NHL this season. It'd be pretty dumb of them to bring him up just to be the 4th line C

glucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:22 PM
  #48
Oates2Neely
Registered User
 
Oates2Neely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BeanTown
Country: Azores
Posts: 7,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Just because they're signing him, doesn't mean he's going to be in the NHL this season. It'd be pretty dumb of them to bring him up just to be the 4th line C
Uhhhmm ya, the 4th line is exactly where Chiarelli wants Seguin to play this year.. . I take it your a TOR fan

Oates2Neely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:24 PM
  #49
PJ StockBB
Registered User
 
PJ StockBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehta View Post
Are you an NHL scout? I'm pretty sure the Oilers scouting staff knew what they were doing and the Bruins wanted Hall as well. Seguin is a great consolation prize but if Seguin is going to turn out to be better, the Oilers would of taken Seguin over Hall. Your not an NHL scout so your opinion doesn't matter at all and you probably dont even know anything about them. Either way it's to early to tell who will be the better player but Hall was selected 1st overall for a reason.
hall was selected first overall simply because oiler fans would have cried if they did not select him. he has been the sexy pick for this draft since he has been 14 or 15 or something. in terms of talent these two are pretty equal and both should be great players.

also i don't know why you think the Bruins liked hall more. PC stated a million times he considered them equal and would pick whichever one was left over. so if TSN was jerking it to Seguin all the time instead of hall you guys would have been screaming for Seguin instead.

PJ StockBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 01:25 PM
  #50
DarrenBanks56
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,397
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Just because they're signing him, doesn't mean he's going to be in the NHL this season. It'd be pretty dumb of them to bring him up just to be the 4th line C
if the bruins keep savard, seguin will be a top 6 winger at worst.
if they trade savard, he's a top 3 center at worst.

DarrenBanks56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:09 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.